New Study Reveals: Plateaus are NOT real...

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  • sa11yjane
    sa11yjane Posts: 491 Member
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    This is very interesting so thank you for the time you took to write the post. I will read it again later as there is so much info in it. Good luck with your continuing weight loss journey x
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    This is the classic study (yes, an actual scientific study) on self reported weight loss plateaus:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701

    The subjects were chosen specifically because they maintained they could not lose weight on a self reported intake of 1,200 calories. Turns out they were under estimating how many calories they were eating by as much as 50%...

    If you are plateauing your first call must be to check your energy balance carefully over a sufficient amount of time- much as the OP has done ;)
  • peterdt
    peterdt Posts: 820 Member
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    You have a lot to lose and haven't been at this for long. As you get smaller, losing weight will become harder. Your spreadsheet only accounts for right now. If you don't make adjustments, you WILL eventually plateau. I've been doing this 3 times as long as you have and had as much to lose. I have done my own "study" and I am certain that you will eventually change your mind about your conclusions here.

    Since we're all presenting anecdote as universal fact, why not add another?

    Your experience is not mine. I've lost 136 pounds. As I got smaller, losing weight did not become harder. My weight loss only slowed down when I chose to slow it down by increasing my calorie intake and therefore decreasing my deficit. I was still losing nearly two pounds a week when I was 15 pounds from goal and I was eating around 2,000 calories a day (at that point, I did increase my intake because I was training for an endurance event and needed the additional fuel, and did not want to compromise my performance - actively trying to lose weight would have done that).

    I am not "certain" OP will change his mind.

    I don't know why my experience is different than yours - perhaps it was my method of increasing my calorie goal as I lost weight instead of decreasing it as so many people do; perhaps it was my exercise routine; perhaps it was my diet; perhaps I did not experience a hormonal shift like many dieters do.

    What I do know is that plateaus are not inevitable, and for me, I lost weight at the deficit at which I ate, regardless of whether I had 135 pounds to lose or 10.

    Obviously we will all have different experiences, but OP's suggestion that one create a spreadsheet to track one's losses and minimize the disappoint with low weeks is a good one in my opinion.

    I'm certain your experience is different. You were training for an endurance event. I don't pursue athletics at all. My cardio and strength training workouts are moderate at best. Also, I identified that the OP stated that he was netting 1500 calories below his TDEE daily... that is a serious deficit to be sure. That is NOT 2000 calories a day like the diet you consumed to lose your weight. As I said, true scientific studies have proven that a daily calorie deficit greater than 300 calories results in the loss of muscle. Muscle burns more calories than fat so that muscle loss will slow his metabolism. Now here is where I can't rightly swear off definitively that the OP will plateau. So, for the sake of not mincing anymore words as has already been done in this thread, the circumstances with which the OP is generating his weight loss will increase the likelihood that he will plateau. There ya go!

    And because I've been using a similar spreadsheet, I have discovered that my deficit is also too large, and I'm increasing my calories again.

    Spreadsheets rock! :drinker:

    I'm not criticizing the spreadsheet. I'm criticizing the OP's claims that he thinks his spreadsheet proves. I actually use my own spreadsheet.

    don't think it proves anything. it is working for me now. who is to say it might not in the future. you assume too much.
  • peterdt
    peterdt Posts: 820 Member
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    This is the classic study (yes, an actual scientific study) on self reported weight loss plateaus:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701

    The subjects were chosen specifically because they maintained they could not lose weight on a self reported intake of 1,200 calories. Turns out they were under estimating how many calories they were eating by as much as 50%...

    If you are plateauing your first call must be to check your energy balance carefully over a sufficient amount of time- much as the OP has done ;)

    yeah, as I thought. :) but I still think plateaus can be real. they also can really be in your head too.
  • DanaDark
    DanaDark Posts: 2,187 Member
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    This is the classic study (yes, an actual scientific study) on self reported weight loss plateaus:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701

    The subjects were chosen specifically because they maintained they could not lose weight on a self reported intake of 1,200 calories. Turns out they were under estimating how many calories they were eating by as much as 50%...

    If you are plateauing your first call must be to check your energy balance carefully over a sufficient amount of time- much as the OP has done ;)

    People like me don't like to "estimate" our calories. I use a scale and when in doubt, go higher. I also prefer to under estimate exercise calories.

    People in that study were not using calorie tracking software or food scales. O.o
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    Long term weight / fat loss plateaus clearly exist - it's called maintenance.

    A plateau in terms of dieting is not simply about the scale - it is also about no movement in body measurements or visual markers at the same time. If your scale is not moving but there are clear signs of improvement in body composition then obviously that is not a plateau.

    What does not exist in my opinion is a plateau that cannot be explained one way or another (usually by under reporting of calorie intake or over estimating calorie burn.)

    Good article here:

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/217761--unexplainable-fat-loss-plateaus-explained-tom-ve

    Mine was due to the BC I was on. But since that's hormone-related, I believe there are probably plenty of people who have the issue without being on BC, just messed up hormones. It isn't always about diet and exercise.

    Diet and exercise can both affect hormones, just as quickly as birth control can. Hormonal issues are one of the reasons that the VLCD folks that have little to lose have so much trouble.

    You have provided an example of how msf74 is correct. There are always explanations, even if those explanations are not known or understood.

    I've never said there weren't reasons behind them. But those reasons are not always user error, which is the basic premise of the OP and a lot of other people on this site.

    True. Sometimes when I look at someone's diary, I immediately know that the problem is "user error." Sometimes it's a physical issue, such as hormones. I suspect that the OP was not considering that factor when creating this post. There are so many people on MFP for whom you *KNOW* that they are not logging accurately....things like 3000 calorie burns from mopping their kitchen floor.

    But it is certainly the case that factors outside of the person's control can be inhibiting weight loss. I don't think OP was referring to those things, but rather the believing that more often than not, it is user error. I am inclined to believe that. I haven't been here long, but I've looked through a lot of diaries and just shake my head at some of the nonsense that I have witnessed, wondering if these people are just lying to themselves or if they are honestly just not very bright.
  • ShannonMpls
    ShannonMpls Posts: 1,936 Member
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    You have a lot to lose and haven't been at this for long. As you get smaller, losing weight will become harder. Your spreadsheet only accounts for right now. If you don't make adjustments, you WILL eventually plateau. I've been doing this 3 times as long as you have and had as much to lose. I have done my own "study" and I am certain that you will eventually change your mind about your conclusions here.

    Since we're all presenting anecdote as universal fact, why not add another?

    Your experience is not mine. I've lost 136 pounds. As I got smaller, losing weight did not become harder. My weight loss only slowed down when I chose to slow it down by increasing my calorie intake and therefore decreasing my deficit. I was still losing nearly two pounds a week when I was 15 pounds from goal and I was eating around 2,000 calories a day (at that point, I did increase my intake because I was training for an endurance event and needed the additional fuel, and did not want to compromise my performance - actively trying to lose weight would have done that).

    I am not "certain" OP will change his mind.

    I don't know why my experience is different than yours - perhaps it was my method of increasing my calorie goal as I lost weight instead of decreasing it as so many people do; perhaps it was my exercise routine; perhaps it was my diet; perhaps I did not experience a hormonal shift like many dieters do.

    What I do know is that plateaus are not inevitable, and for me, I lost weight at the deficit at which I ate, regardless of whether I had 135 pounds to lose or 10.

    Obviously we will all have different experiences, but OP's suggestion that one create a spreadsheet to track one's losses and minimize the disappoint with low weeks is a good one in my opinion.

    That is another consistent issue people who get fairly close to their goal weight report. There is surely something to that, and maybe the spreadsheet thing falls apart at that point. Or might need some serious adjustment.

    I used mine until the end :)
  • yoovie
    yoovie Posts: 17,121 Member
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    I used mine until the end :)

    I lol'd at "end"
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    This is the classic study (yes, an actual scientific study) on self reported weight loss plateaus:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701

    The subjects were chosen specifically because they maintained they could not lose weight on a self reported intake of 1,200 calories. Turns out they were under estimating how many calories they were eating by as much as 50%...

    If you are plateauing your first call must be to check your energy balance carefully over a sufficient amount of time- much as the OP has done ;)

    People like me don't like to "estimate" our calories. I use a scale and when in doubt, go higher. I also prefer to under estimate exercise calories.

    People in that study were not using calorie tracking software or food scales. O.o

    Then you are the exception not the rule.

    Incidentally, how were you measuring the changes in your body composition during your period of calorie restriction? Were you checking BF% / measurements / photographs as well? As I said before a true plateau is where you see no improvement in body composition (as opposed to just weight) despite being consistently in deficit.
  • John2347
    John2347 Posts: 336 Member
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    bump
  • rml_16
    rml_16 Posts: 16,414 Member
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    True. Sometimes when I look at someone's diary, I immediately know that the problem is "user error." Sometimes it's a physical issue, such as hormones. I suspect that the OP was not considering that factor when creating this post. There are so many people on MFP for whom you *KNOW* that they are not logging accurately....things like 3000 calorie burns from mopping their kitchen floor.

    But it is certainly the case that factors outside of the person's control can be inhibiting weight loss. I don't think OP was referring to those things, but rather the believing that more often than not, it is user error. I am inclined to believe that. I haven't been here long, but I've looked through a lot of diaries and just shake my head at some of the nonsense that I have witnessed, wondering if these people are just lying to themselves or if they are honestly just not very bright.

    A little of both?
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    This is the classic study (yes, an actual scientific study) on self reported weight loss plateaus:

    http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199212313272701

    The subjects were chosen specifically because they maintained they could not lose weight on a self reported intake of 1,200 calories. Turns out they were under estimating how many calories they were eating by as much as 50%...

    If you are plateauing your first call must be to check your energy balance carefully over a sufficient amount of time- much as the OP has done ;)

    How dare you post a study! Only anecdotes are allowed in this thread!
  • UsedToBeHusky
    UsedToBeHusky Posts: 15,229 Member
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    don't think it proves anything. it is working for me now. who is to say it might not in the future. you assume too much.

    You made this statement right from the onset. This is definitive.
    Yes, plateaus are real in the short run (weeks or weeks). BUT plateaus are NOT real in the long run like a month or more period of time.

    Then you followed with this statement, suggesting this supports the previous statement.
    I entered 6 months of data that I logged here at MFP and the results were shocking to be honest.

    I didn't assume anything. If you did not mean to say that your spreadsheet proves that plateaus are not real in the "long-term", then that is because you did not choose the the correct words to communicate your true meaning. That's not my fault.

    And coincidentally, as I pointed out earlier, six months is not enough data to determine "long-term" in relation to weight loss.

    I am just repeating myself again though so I'm done with this thread. Good luck! Hope that spreadsheet continues to help in the "long-term".
  • WendyTerry420
    WendyTerry420 Posts: 13,274 Member
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    True. Sometimes when I look at someone's diary, I immediately know that the problem is "user error." Sometimes it's a physical issue, such as hormones. I suspect that the OP was not considering that factor when creating this post. There are so many people on MFP for whom you *KNOW* that they are not logging accurately....things like 3000 calorie burns from mopping their kitchen floor.

    But it is certainly the case that factors outside of the person's control can be inhibiting weight loss. I don't think OP was referring to those things, but rather the believing that more often than not, it is user error. I am inclined to believe that. I haven't been here long, but I've looked through a lot of diaries and just shake my head at some of the nonsense that I have witnessed, wondering if these people are just lying to themselves or if they are honestly just not very bright.

    A little of both?

    Could be. I try not to judge. :laugh:
  • yoovie
    yoovie Posts: 17,121 Member
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    I would say that if you put 99% of the people who swear black and blue that they are at a calorie deficit and are not losing in a metabolic ward and monitored their intake careful they would start losing weight....

    You should seriously stop with all this pompous 99% of people are just doing it wrong BS asap. You dont give your peers nearly enough credit. Their common sense or their willpower.
  • firstnamekaren
    firstnamekaren Posts: 274 Member
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    I "plateaued" when I switched from just cardio to a heavy lifting program and upped my calories 400 cals. I became discouraged and lost motivation. An injury from lifting didn't help this. I've only gained 5 lbs since then, but man it's discouraging.

    I'm beginning to think plateaus are more a test of determination and patience than an ACTUAL thing.
  • ArroganceInStep
    ArroganceInStep Posts: 6,239 Member
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    I would say that if you put 99% of the people who swear black and blue that they are at a calorie deficit and are not losing in a metabolic ward and monitored their intake careful they would start losing weight....

    You should seriously stop with all this pompous 99% of people are just doing it wrong BS asap. You dont give your peers nearly enough credit. Their common sense or their willpower.

    I think that comes not from common sense or willpower, but more from the plain difficulty that comes with measuring:

    http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/GuidanceDocuments/FoodLabelingNutrition/ucm063113.htm
    The Third Group nutrients include calories, sugars, total fat, saturated fat, cholesterol, and sodium. However, for products (e.g., fruit drinks, juices, and confectioneries) with a sugars content of 90 percent or more of total carbohydrate, to prevent labeling anomalies due in part to rounding, FDA treats total carbohydrate as a Third Group nutrient instead of a Class II nutrient. For foods with label declarations of Third Group nutrients, the ratio between the amount obtained by laboratory analysis and the amount declared on the product label in the Nutrition Facts panel must be 120% or less, i.e., the label is considered to be out of compliance if the nutrient content of a composite of the product is greater than 20% above the value declared on the label. For example, if a laboratory analysis found 8 g of total fat/serving in a product that stated that it contained 6 g of total fat/serving, the ratio between the laboratory value and the label value would be (8 / 6) x 100 = 133%, and the product label would be considered to be out of compliance.

    And that's only if the FDA is tracking that particular product. Even with our best efforts, it's damn hard to accurately assess calorie intake.
  • Leeann1979
    Leeann1979 Posts: 1,090 Member
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    I just got over a 2 month plateau. Not because I was lazy or eating poorly. I played tennis at least 3-4 times a week, added walks on my lunch breaks, and a few other things. The scale would not budge. And I dont play softie tennis. Im an intense player. My body adapted to what I was doing and eating. So i recently changed things up. I added calories to my daily intake and I have lost 4 pounds this past week. Finally. I should have changed something up sooner, but at least I did eventually. Your body becomes accustomed to the same things after a while, and doesnt need to work as hard. For example, when I came out of tennis retirement after about 15 years in 2011, I wore my HRM to play and would burn nearly 2000 calories in an hour or two. I was out of shape!! Now Im lucky to crack 500 calories per session, and I play harder than i did back then. Now I have added other exercise, such as weight training and occasional jogging (it hurts my knees) and i am finally seeing a change. Plus I love the little daily challenges on here!
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    I would say that if you put 99% of the people who swear black and blue that they are at a calorie deficit and are not losing in a metabolic ward and monitored their intake careful they would start losing weight....

    You should seriously stop with all this pompous 99% of people are just doing it wrong BS asap. You dont give your peers nearly enough credit. Their common sense or their willpower.

    Why? I believe that scientifically human error is the most obvious reason, though not the only one.

    Human being are infallible in many ways including calorie counting. It's the way we are built
  • marthafox1
    marthafox1 Posts: 191 Member
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    bump