"You can't build muscle on a calorie deficit"

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  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,951 Member
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    I was just told I can't train for a tri on a calorie deficit.

    ***** please, I do what I want.

    This is way off topic but with the shooting muffs (?) in your pic I thought you were Adam Baldwin.

    Jayne! Animal Mother!
    That's the Baldwin I like. :D

    and yeah, I took that pic while I was at the range burning through ammo.
  • Running_Tanya
    Running_Tanya Posts: 14 Member
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    You actually and physically can't build appreciable muscle on a deficit, just like you can't build fat on a deficit. You have to have materials build IYSWIM.

    But that doesn't mean you shouldn't lift weights while in a deficit. Why lift?

    1. Weight lifting is exercise, and while people fight and argue about how much it burns (answer-no one knows), it will contribute to your calorie deficit in some manner.
    2. While you can't build muscle on a deficit, you can build strength and coordination-two good things to have.
    3. While you can't build muscle, you can preserve what you already have, what this means is you have to lose less weight to get to a lower body fat percentage-end result is many people are happier with their bodies.

    Have you been measuring your arms? Just because the muscle is more defined doesn't mean it is actually bigger. More likely is that as you have lost weight, you have lost fat which makes it more visible. (ie#3) Either that or you took the picture directly after lifting so it is pumped.
    Thanks for this^^
  • stumblinthrulife
    stumblinthrulife Posts: 2,558 Member
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    So...If I have 50 extra pounds of FAT on my body and I Start lifting weights but eat only 500 Calories of lets say 75g of Pure protein. Even though Im eating a severe deficit. some of you are suggesting that because I'm 50lbs over weight my body will use that EXCESS to build muscle?

    Legitimate question here. Is a caloric intake surplus necessary if you have EXCESS body fat?

    I'll try to answer this based on informal learning over the past few months. I don't have links or studies to back this up. If anyone has supported, or refuting, data they would like to provide, I'd love to see it myself.

    1. There's a limit to how much fat your body will oxidize for energy in a given time period.
    2. If you're already at a caloric deficit, you've used up most or all of that maximum already.
    3. Even if all your intake has been protein, it's still being diverted for use as energy - because you are at a deficit.

    So let's say your body needs 200 calories to build some muscle. You've provided 200 calories of protein, so you figure you're good, and the body will take everything else it needs to fat stores. But it won't. You've already exhausted your body's ability to pull from fat stores, so it's started on the protein cals you provided, just to support the business of living.

    I know how frustrating the OP must find it to feel she has visible evidence of growth in a deficit, but decades of professional body builders are not simply wrong. They figured this stuff out a long time ago, and that's why most bodybuilders use a bulk/cut cycle. It's simply the most efficient way to build muscle and reduce body fat.
  • iwillbetinytea
    iwillbetinytea Posts: 264 Member
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    Perhaps... your shirt shrunk. :laugh: Or you're counting your calories incorrectly.

    Or, depending on what margin of error we're talking about for your shirt sleeves, you're retaining water. Since you're noticing a difference, and it seems unlikely that you gained... say, 1" around your arms while lifting and not eating all that much, I'm going to suggest it's one of these other explanations.

    Lol I hope not, I like that dress!

    But there's muscle there where there was once just thinner arms. Unless..........water is stored in the shaped of muscle?

    Oh come on, I'm not lying to you - I'm being very honest, there was no muscle and now there is and you're just trying to poo poo my argument with WATER WEIGHT on my arms. Piffle!

    You are totally missing the point of what water weight people are talking about - it IS in the muscle - glycogen and water.

    But surely I would see a increase/decrease in my muscle, as these stores are replenished and depleted.
  • crista_b
    crista_b Posts: 1,192 Member
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    Bumping for the replies. I just started lifting as part of my fat loss program (not to build muscle), but this is very interesting.

    Also, it's nice to see people having intelligent discussions (for the most part) on here for once, even when they disagree. Bravo!
  • winchestervol63
    winchestervol63 Posts: 47 Member
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    So...If I have 50 extra pounds of FAT on my body and I Start lifting weights but eat only 500 Calories of lets say 75g of Pure protein. Even though Im eating a severe deficit. some of you are suggesting that because I'm 50lbs over weight my body will use that EXCESS to build muscle?

    Haven't seen anyone say that. For your example, I think there's no doubt that the extreme deficit would preclude maintaining muscle mass, much less building.

    But I'll say if you had an excess of 50lbs of fat, ate 400g of protein a day, and wound up at a 2g per day net deficit while lifting heavily, that I'm not sure it'd be impossible to gain any muscle. Guess it's the sweeping declaration that any deficit at all makes adding muscle impossible that get to me.

    It's mostly a moot point anyway. Lifting moderately to heavy and making sure you get enough protein are key to at least maintaining as much muscle mass as possible while losing fat. There's not a huge amount of difference if you're adding a small amount of muscle, precisely maintaining, or losing the least possible.
  • geekette411
    geekette411 Posts: 154 Member
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    Not that I'm anywhere near needing this info yet but,

    When I lose my desired amount of weight and I land at needing roughly 1800 for maintenence do I eat back my cals from my workout it I want to gain muscle mass?
  • Angie80281
    Angie80281 Posts: 444 Member
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    Bumping to read links later.
  • patentguru
    patentguru Posts: 312 Member
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    I don't agree with the statement "you can't build muscle on a deficit". The deficit only refers to the calories you eat. Your body still has stored energy in the form of fat, and lots of it. Thus, if you eat sufficient protein and lift weights, you can build muscle from the eaten protein, while your body burns stored fat for energy on a calorie deficit.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,951 Member
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    I know how frustrating the OP must find it to feel she has visible evidence of growth in a deficit, but decades of professional body builders are not simply wrong. They figured this stuff out a long time ago, and that's why most bodybuilders use a bulk/cut cycle. It's simply the most efficient way to build muscle and reduce body fat.
    This particular statement is dangerous. Bros will tell you that you must eat protein within the "window" or all your sweet gains are lost. Science (!) tells us that's bs.

    Not saying that's the case here, just a reminder that Ph.D.s before bros.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    Not that I'm anywhere near needing this info yet but,

    When I lose my desired amount of weight and I land at needing roughly 1800 for maintenence do I eat back my cals from my workout it I want to gain muscle mass?

    When you get to maintenance, you'll most likely want to go with the TDEE method. By then you should have a good idea of how/what to eat and what your calories look like in a given day. TDEE is just way easier when you're maintaining. It's trail and error, just like weight loss. My TDEE maintenance is a lot higher than I though it was initially...took me about 6 weeks to dial it in.

    When you get there, eat maintenance TDEE for a bit and let your body adjust to that...when you want to bulk some muscle mass you have to up your calories to a surplus...most people do around 500 calories surplus to gain 1 Lb per week.
  • stumblinthrulife
    stumblinthrulife Posts: 2,558 Member
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    I know how frustrating the OP must find it to feel she has visible evidence of growth in a deficit, but decades of professional body builders are not simply wrong. They figured this stuff out a long time ago, and that's why most bodybuilders use a bulk/cut cycle. It's simply the most efficient way to build muscle and reduce body fat.
    This particular statement is dangerous. Bros will tell you that you must eat protein within the "window" or all your sweet gains are lost. Science (!) tells us that's bs.

    Not saying that's the case here, just a reminder that Ph.D.s before bros.

    Oh sure, 100% agree.

    But I'm pretty sure that if it was possible to appreciably bulk while eating at a deficit and reducing body fat, there would be no such thing as the cut/bulk cycle. I'm not ready to chalk that one up to broscience.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,951 Member
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    Oh sure, 100% agree.

    But I'm pretty sure that if it was possible to appreciably bulk while eating at a deficit and reducing body fat, there would be no such thing as the cut/bulk cycle. I'm not ready to chalk that one up to broscience.

    Wish I knew, and I've not researched any of the journals for that. Would be interesting to see IF there were even studies made approaching that.

    Or even bulking on a calorically neutral intake.
  • AlchemyOfTheBlackSunCult
    AlchemyOfTheBlackSunCult Posts: 58
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    Any experienced lifters (more than 3 years) can't really gain much muscle when on a caloric deficit.

    The way muscle is built is your break down muscle fibers, and muscle protein synthesis occurs in that muscle. Muscle protein synthesis takes the essential amino acids and repairs the damaged fibers bigger and stronger (anabolic). While this is all going on, your body is always breaking down muscle fibers as well (catabolic). Anabolism and Catabolism are both ongoing processes, meaning no matter what time of the day, both are occurring, just certain times you are more anabolic, other times you are more catabolic.

    While eating in a caloric deficit your body is physically breaking down more muscle protein (to use as energy) just as it is breaking down adipose tissue (body fat) for energy. The more in deficit you are, the more muscle protein breakdown occurs, so this makes it extremely unlikely to gain any form of lean body mass while on a caloric deficit.

    The reason why you can gain lean body mass with a caloric deficit diet is because your muscles aren't used to the stimuli, and your body must adapt to it. Also you most likely will not have muscle lean body mass if you are new to training, so theres a lot less muscle protein breakdown.


    With all of this being said, its 100% possible to get stronger while on a caloric diet.
  • mustgetmuscles1
    mustgetmuscles1 Posts: 3,346 Member
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    I don't agree with the statement "you can't build muscle on a deficit". The deficit only refers to the calories you eat. Your body still has stored energy in the form of fat, and lots of it. Thus, if you eat sufficient protein and lift weights, you can build muscle from the eaten protein, while your body burns stored fat for energy on a calorie deficit.

    Eat all the protein you want. If you are in a deficit it will be converted to energy and used before it is used to create new muscle.
  • Joocey
    Joocey Posts: 115 Member
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    Oh sure, 100% agree.

    But I'm pretty sure that if it was possible to appreciably bulk while eating at a deficit and reducing body fat, there would be no such thing as the cut/bulk cycle. I'm not ready to chalk that one up to broscience.

    Wish I knew, and I've not researched any of the journals for that. Would be interesting to see IF there were even studies made approaching that.

    Or even bulking on a calorically neutral intake.

    The cut/bulk cycle is the FASTEST and most EFFICIENT means of achieving a net gain of lean mass, but its overall effectiveness relies on a lot of other factors including genetics.

    Bulking on a calorically neutral intake or a very slight excess may be able to achieve the same results under PERFECT conditions, but a professional can't take that chance. There's a reason that people, not just athletes, specialize.

    Under optimal conditions though, the end result should be the same or close to it.
  • winchestervol63
    winchestervol63 Posts: 47 Member
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    Maybe terms need to be defined.

    Building mass might be different than newbie gains in muscle. The muscle was already there, you're just making it strong. you're also shedding some fat and it starts to show.

    I don't know why it's so hard to understand that in order to add mass to your body, you have to eat more. This is what most of you have tdone your entire lives until now. You added mass. Now, you want to get rid of the mass, so you are eating at a deficit to make that happen. So, it's kind of a no duh, that to build muscle is the same thing. Expect, you dont' quite eat hugely, you eat a little above maintenance and workout really, really, really hard. Harder than you do now, and you add muscle to your existing muscle. Eating at a deficit, you will not add mass to your body. It just doesn't work that way.

    With respect, it's not overall mass that's the question, but lean mass only. By defniition, you'll lose overall mass anytime you're in a deficit - of that there is no doubt.

    Now, I'm convinced that a person can lower their BF% while maintaining their weight by lifting and eating right. In order to do that, they have to be adding muscle while eating at neither a deficit nor a suplus of calories. I have a hard time believing that such a thing is possible at calorie balance, but absolutely impossible for say, a 50 cal/day deficit (after all, there's no way they are ever THAT precisely balanced anyway). If it's possible at a 50 cal deficit with the right nutrition and training, what about 100? Certainly, the returns will be diminishing in any event.

    I'm just not convinced there's anything magical about calorie balance and muscle gain (provided excess fat is available), although it is perfectly clear that it's much easier to add muscle mass while in a surplus.

    As I've said, though, it's mostly a moot point. If one can get stronger, add muscle size (due only to water+glycogen), and also have his/her muscles look dramatically bigger still merely due to uncovering them, then that's probably good enough to most people who are trying to lose fat. As a practical matter, that's a reasonable facsimile to 'adding muscle' for the non-bodybuilder, I'd think.
  • thrld
    thrld Posts: 610 Member
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    And as for 1200, why would anyone want to eat that low? If I can lose weight eating 2000 calories, you bet I'm going to eat 2000 calories, not 1200.
    MFP has me set at 1260. On days I don't work out, I try to eat at 1260, because that is what it is set at. When I eat over, I gain weight. So I either workout & I eat more, or if no workout I try to eat at 1260.

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