Calorie deficit = no muscle mass gain. so why am I stronger?

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Replies

  • Hexahedra
    Hexahedra Posts: 894 Member
    You can gain muscle while on a deficit, because if you do progressive strength training you invariably introduce micro tears in your muscle, which your body considers as high priority for repair. However, your body is a very complex system that always tries to optimally balance competing needs, especially in a deficit. It will repair your muscle, but it's not going to spend too much energy reinforcing it.

    When in deficit your body will eat both fat and muscle, that's a fact. When you exercise hard and forces your body to repair muscle, it counteracts this catabolic effect. That's why people exercise during a deficit.

    Now, if you want your body to really build muscle without holding back, you need to eat at a caloric surplus.

    In short: gaining muscle during a deficit is possible, but it's not gonna be anywhere near the rate of gain during a surplus. Think of the gain during a deficit as a bonus. There is a reason why professional bodybuilders choose to do the bulk & cut cycle; they can gain much faster during the bulk phase.
  • Alphastate
    Alphastate Posts: 295 Member
    Here, amongst others: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=250

    His creds and curriculum vitae are under the "Meet the Editor" tab on his site.
    Interesting. I've always read 3-8%. Hopefully we can agree that this margin of error is defined as actual vs calculated, and the variance I was referring to is net change.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,043 Member
    I am 1.5 weeks into a cutting phase (Granted I'm taking a fat burner and am supplementing with BCAAs for the first time ever). I am tracking everything.

    Beginning - 178 lbs, 13.1% BF.
    This morning - 177lbs, 12.4% BF.

    These numbers are from calipers, read by the same person, at the same time of day.
    Doing the math, that is 1.4 lbs of fat loss and .4 lb of lean mass gain. Even taking any kind of variance into account, there was some muscle gain.
    Variance is between +/- 5% to10%. I'd say that's a pretty significant variance if you're talking about adding muscle on a calorie deficit.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • MisterDerpington
    MisterDerpington Posts: 604 Member
    My god why is this thread still going?
    Because:

    hurr-durr-hurrdurr-graph.png

    I'm saving this.
  • j75j75
    j75j75 Posts: 854 Member
    You can strengthen your central nervous system so that it recruits more muscle fibers during a lift. This is essentially what Olympic power lifters do.
  • Timshel_
    Timshel_ Posts: 22,834 Member
    I like this articles explaination of some research done on the sbuject.

    http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/

    Essentially, it depends on the persons conditioning and status.
    In summary, some people can and do build a decent amount of muscle while they’re in a calorie deficit.

    But it’s a phenomenon that’s generally limited to people who are very overweight and have never lifted weights before, or those who are returning to exercise after a layoff, where muscle memory comes into play.

    Once you’ve move past the “overweight beginner” stage, building a significant amount of muscle while losing fat is a goal that becomes progressively more difficult and will normally require some kind of calorie cycling strategy if you want to see decent results.
  • jennifershoo
    jennifershoo Posts: 3,198 Member
    Bump
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
    I like this articles explaination of some research done on the sbuject.

    http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/

    Essentially, it depends on the persons conditioning and status.

    Interesting article but it only refers to men.
    Can the same deductions be made for women knowing that we have a different fat:muscle ratio than men?
  • waldo56
    waldo56 Posts: 1,861 Member


    All that muscle weighs more than fat nonsense you see, in reality both weigh about what water weighs. A pound of muscle is about the size of a pint. It doesn't take a whole lot to be a pretty obvious difference.

    If that were true, then the water displacement method of measuring body fat percentage wouldn't work, because it is based on body fat having a lower mass per unit of volume than lean body mass does.


    ahhhhhhh

    ::face desk::

    a pound is a pound is a pound


    weight, volume, and density are NOT synonyms... FFS

    Human body fat has a lower specific gravity than muscle does, which means that it is less dense, which means that it weighs less per unit of volume, which means that pound of fat takes up more space than a pound of muscle.

    0.90 g/ml for fat
    1.06 g/ml for muscle
    1.00 g/ml for water

    Yes, muscle is more dense than fat or water. Sensitive equipment can pick up this difference. To the naked eye, both take up about as much space as water.

    Gain 5 lbs of muscle and chances are each of your thighs will be 1" bigger, your chest will be1.5" bigger, and each of your arms will be about 0.5" bigger. It is a plainly obvious difference. Small bit of muscle gain and you're a lifetime member of the "skinny jeans ain't happening" club.
  • RobP1192
    RobP1192 Posts: 310 Member
    Sounds like a good excuse to go into a calorie surplus to me! TIME TO GET BIG! No more of this losing lbs. ticker!
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    I like this articles explaination of some research done on the sbuject.

    http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/

    Essentially, it depends on the persons conditioning and status.

    Interesting article but it only refers to men.
    Can the same deductions be made for women knowing that we have a different fat:muscle ratio than men?
    Generally speaking, women can expect about half the results of men as far as muscle mass gain (read the article by Lyle McDonald which I linked to earlier in the thread). A male relatively new to training, given optimal diet and training (which is a rarity in itself) can put on about 0.5 lb. of muscle per week; a woman can expect the results to be around 0.5 lb. every two weeks. This is due largely to the fact that women possess/produce somewhere around 10-15% of the testosterone that men do.
  • Fozzi43
    Fozzi43 Posts: 2,984 Member
    Interesting thread.
  • JeffseekingV
    JeffseekingV Posts: 3,165 Member
    Bottom line. Get a body fat test now and after. Compare results. Only way to know
  • Pnuke77
    Pnuke77 Posts: 23
    I like this articles explaination of some research done on the sbuject.

    http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/

    Essentially, it depends on the persons conditioning and status.
    In summary, some people can and do build a decent amount of muscle while they’re in a calorie deficit.

    But it’s a phenomenon that’s generally limited to people who are very overweight and have never lifted weights before, or those who are returning to exercise after a layoff, where muscle memory comes into play.

    Once you’ve move past the “overweight beginner” stage, building a significant amount of muscle while losing fat is a goal that becomes progressively more difficult and will normally require some kind of calorie cycling strategy if you want to see decent results.

    That was based on this study.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9309627
  • Wienerbua
    Wienerbua Posts: 19
    I don't profess to be an expert but I have read a lot about the topics mentioned here. Some people I have read believe that increased strength (notice I said strength, not muscle) gains are a function of both neurological adaptations AND muscle gains. What the percentage of neurological adaptation and muscle gain is will vary. If you are not gaining significant muscle weight but are getting stronger, then these experts would speculate that you are mentally getting better at being stronger, i.e., neurological adaptation.

    Strength is a skill like driving, typing, swimming, doing karate or whatever. The more you practice at doing deadlifts, head stands, pullups, pushups, whatever, your body will get mentally better at doing them and may also add muscle. I would not discount the ability of your body to get stronger by neurological adaptation. In my own experience, I have seen signiticant strength gains from practicing moves and greasing the groove (very frequent practice but never to the point of exhaustion) on certain exercises although I have certainly not gained any significant muscle.
  • JeffseekingV
    JeffseekingV Posts: 3,165 Member
    Get a body fat test done. End the debate
  • lilawolf
    lilawolf Posts: 1,690 Member
    Wow. While I admit that this rained on my parade a bit (okay maybe a lot), it does make a lot of sense. I too thought that I was gaining muscle since my lifts were all going up, and my muscles looked larger, even though I am in a mild deficit. I guess that I overestimated the noob gains. I figured that the "pump" effect leveled out after a couple of weeks, and so the additional size was extra muscle. I think that I am just dropping body fat and gaining definition instead.

    I REALLY appreciate all of the good info in here without name calling, arguing, or misinformation (as far as I can tell). I only read the first two pages, but they were the best two pages I've seen on the main forum in a while :flowerforyou:

    One question is left in my mind:
    If you can gain strength without gaining muscle, can you gain strength while LOSING muscle? In the extreme case of an extremely obese person, I think the answer would be yes, but what about a "normal" weight person?
  • jennifershoo
    jennifershoo Posts: 3,198 Member
    Bump again because of lots of good info in here.
  • ttippie2000
    ttippie2000 Posts: 412 Member
    Novices can get a bit of muscle gains on a deficit, though the strength increases come from taxing your central nervous system. When you recover, from my understanding, your central nervous system is able to more readily recruit motor units and increase the synchronization of the nerves firing. Or something like that.

    Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3057313

    This agrees with what I've been reading through translations of Soviet physicians that supported their Olympic team. They talk about gains of 35% in primary lifts coming from the development of neuromuscular coordination. In other words, your body learns to recruit more muscle motor units and coordinate them to fire at the same time.
  • Mustang_Susie
    Mustang_Susie Posts: 7,045 Member
    Wow. While I admit that this rained on my parade a bit (okay maybe a lot), it does make a lot of sense. I too thought that I was gaining muscle since my lifts were all going up, and my muscles looked larger, even though I am in a mild deficit. I guess that I overestimated the noob gains. I figured that the "pump" effect leveled out after a couple of weeks, and so the additional size was extra muscle. I think that I am just dropping body fat and gaining definition instead.

    I REALLY appreciate all of the good info in here without name calling, arguing, or misinformation (as far as I can tell). I only read the first two pages, but they were the best two pages I've seen on the main forum in a while :flowerforyou:

    One question is left in my mind:
    If you can gain strength without gaining muscle, can you gain strength while LOSING muscle? In the extreme case of an extremely obese person, I think the answer would be yes, but what about a "normal" weight person?

    Interesting question :smile:
  • Tessyloowhoo
    Tessyloowhoo Posts: 504
    Novices can get a bit of muscle gains on a deficit, though the strength increases come from taxing your central nervous system. When you recover, from my understanding, your central nervous system is able to more readily recruit motor units and increase the synchronization of the nerves firing. Or something like that.

    Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3057313

    Wow... this is incredibly profound for me!
    I have Dysautonomia ( a severe disease of the autonomic nervous system). I also began working out in may but i started lifting 2-3 months ago. Since I started lifting the following things have happened:
    1. I had my first normal EKG. (I used to have severe tachycardia)
    2. My blood pressure has stabilized to the point that i went from 3-4 episodes of fainting a week down to 3 a month.
    3. My bouts of uncontrolled fevers have decreased by at least 50%.
    4. I am off pain medication for the muscle spasms I have in my legs.
    5. No seizures

    Doctors have said over and over they have no idea how i was getting better. People with severe Dysautonomia aren't supposed to get better!
    But I THINK I DO! perhaps this neuromuscular adaption is most likely the reason.
  • coachxdave
    coachxdave Posts: 1
    I had a team member ask the very same thing the other day: addressed my opinion about it in this youtube video.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TruSHQJQKZo
  • wilsoje74
    wilsoje74 Posts: 1,720 Member
    I'm not saying it's not true but this whole thing has confused me as well. I DEFINITELY have put on muscle and I've been eating at a deficit for about a year now. I am FAR from obese and I'm not a beginner...Soooo...what gives? Has my body just adjusted to the deficit or what? lol Although, honestly, I don't care what I read on the internet anymore. I just look at my body and see if what I'm doing is working for me personally.
    how do you know you have put on muscle?

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