Dog Park Drama

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  • RelativeChaos00
    RelativeChaos00 Posts: 33 Member
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    I'm actually a little afraid to take our dogs to the dog park here. Our smaller dog is about 40 lbs and while she loves people, she hates small animals and the average dog here in San Antonio seems to be about the size of a chihuahua. I'm afraid she'd eat someone's rat. She lived outside for the first 7 years of her life until my husband and I got her. Our other dog terrifies people. He's about 90 lbs and people comment on how big the little one is! lol. He worried me though because he isn't a huge fan of strangers and doesn't really want people to mess with him without being properly introduced, he's very protective of his people. I do not think he'd hurt someone that wasn't trying to hurt us but I know he'll try to scare them off if they act at all afraid of him and most people do. I'd love to take them, the big one in particular, but I don't want to lose my dog because someone else doesn't keep an eye on their own or approaches him stupidly. :(
  • JustJennie1
    JustJennie1 Posts: 3,843 Member
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    That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

    So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

    No, pull out the clicker.

    WTF is a clicker going to do?
  • kmm7309
    kmm7309 Posts: 802 Member
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    Just being honest... I would have popped that dog in the face right in front of them.

    My dog will NEVER be bitten by another dog in those kind of circumstances and get away with it. It is a dog park. I am okay with (very supervised) socializing going on. My dogs are not super comfortable around other dogs and the only way they will learn is with exposure.

    Maybe it's not my place to punish someone else's dog, but my dogs are non-threatening and I expect to feel safe in a dog park. I would not bring an "alpha dog" to a dog park. I used to walk one of my dogs in the neighborhood and my (leashed) dog was attacked by a non-leashed dog. I did the only thing I could think of: I stabbed the other dog. I don't think I did anything wrong, and I defended my position when confronted by the owners.
  • reallymyBEST
    reallymyBEST Posts: 242 Member
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    I think dog parks are very stressful for dogs and odd and unpredictable behaviors will come out as a result. And just like a human going to a store and encountering ill-behaved humans, you will encounter ill-behaved dogs (and humans!) at the dog park just because it's for public use.

    Seems like there are always a group of core users who know each other and all the pressure is on the "new guy" to try to find a way to initiate play and fine a way to fit in. True not only for the dogs, but for the humans. And that social structure is different on every visit, depending on which dogs are there. I think dogs want to play and spend time with their humans, not trying to figure out where they fit in with dogs they don't know.
  • ebr250
    ebr250 Posts: 199 Member
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    Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

    Also want to echo speaking up. It's a public place, yes, but rules are rules.

    Well put and don't forget the fact that dog parks are perfect breeding grounds for disease and injury. You think the person that can't control the dog is keeping up with its vaccinations? Not likely. And when the dog bites you or your dog, there's another fat paycheck for the vet or ER.
  • 4_Lisa
    4_Lisa Posts: 362 Member
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    That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

    So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

    No, pull out the clicker.


    WTF is a clicker going to do?

    Nothing, I don't believe in them either... sarcasm just doesn't translate....
  • sabified
    sabified Posts: 1,051 Member
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    That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

    So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

    No, pull out the clicker.

    WTF is a clicker going to do?

    I think it was sarcasm... made me lol, at least
  • JustJennie1
    JustJennie1 Posts: 3,843 Member
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    That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog

    So when my dog is playing and he bites me hard I should just snatch my hand away and giggle instead of giving him a swat and a stern "NO"?

    No, pull out the clicker.


    WTF is a clicker going to do?

    Nothing, I don't believe in them either... sarcasm just doesn't translate....

    Gotcha. :smile:
  • khoff170
    khoff170 Posts: 19
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    Take a squirt bottle of WATER with you - buy a brand new, preferably clear one so there's no confusion as to what could be in it. The aggressive dog's owner does nothing to control their dog then you do what you have to to protect yours. Kindly ask him to mind his dog and either restrain or remove it should the owner object.
  • 4_Lisa
    4_Lisa Posts: 362 Member
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    I think dog parks are very stressful for dogs and odd and unpredictable behaviors will come out as a result.

    I agree, we usually go to the larger off leash parks, we encounter other dogs, but not in a confined space, and we try to go during slower times, when we see the dogs getting stressed we leave. We know our dogs well enough to know when they are uncomfortable. Our little guy will give a whine, and he's letting us know he's not ok.
  • MSeel1984
    MSeel1984 Posts: 2,297 Member
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    MEANWHILE, the dog's human/owner did NOTHING to stop his dog...the other people there seemed to think this was just fine because Zoey is "dominant" or an "alpha"...NO...this is NOT ok!

    Did you say anything to the dog's owner? I bet if you spoke up and said something, others who seem to be okay with it, might back you up. Sometimes all it takes is one person speaking up to get others to do the same.

    I was giving him looks-but the others at the park weren't saying anything except laughing a little or saying "oohh...Zoey...leave her alone." or "She's just being Zoey".

    That's not acceptable. When I go back I'll speak up like I should have last night. I mean...our other dog didn't behave when we brought him which is why 1.) we kept him on a leash and 2.) We won't be bringing him back until he behaves.
  • hbrittingham
    hbrittingham Posts: 2,518 Member
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    Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

    I agree. Dogs don't NEED dog parks and a lot of them are really stressed out by going to them.

    The whole "Zoey is just being alpha/dominate" stuff is BS, too. She's an out of control dog who apparently thinks it's her job to correct other dogs. It's her owner's job to keep her from doing that. Unfortunately, I think you will find that the average dog park dog owner is clueless to true dog behavior and you will keep running into incidents like this. Which is why I don't go to dog parks.
  • sillygoosie
    sillygoosie Posts: 1,109 Member
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    The owners should know better and have proper dog park etiquette. I don't take my dog to the dog park because he is also alpha and appears aggressive. I know that he just wants to act that way until he feels comfortable and can play normally, but the other dogs owners don't know that. I would rather not put him in the position of being the "bad dog" and making other owners uncomfortable. He sticks to socializing with the dogs we already know.
  • MSeel1984
    MSeel1984 Posts: 2,297 Member
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    You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

    A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.

    Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

    Not entirely sure that you understand what I was saying, but let's roll with it.

    My theory is that with regard to dominance, the HUMAN is the assertive one, not the dog...so if you're using the excuse of your dog being "dominant", that's not ok. The human should be the alpha in the household. And say what you want about Cesar...but...I see his results so I can't argue with that. Plus dog behavior is his job...I'm not a professional-so there's that.

    I do use training rewards with our puppy and she responds well to them. She's a boxer and naturally a bit stubborn, but she responds to training as long as I make it fun.

    She gets walks for exercise, not the dog park. the dog park I thought was an opportunity to socialize her with people and with other dogs...especially since there are puppies around her age there so she can play a bit (our older dog gets a little annoyed by how excited she is all the time).

    However, thank you for your input. You are not hesitant to share your opinions...
  • MSeel1984
    MSeel1984 Posts: 2,297 Member
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    The owners should know better and have proper dog park etiquette. I don't take my dog to the dog park because he is also alpha and appears aggressive. I know that he just wants to act that way until he feels comfortable and can play normally, but the other dogs owners don't know that. I would rather not put him in the position of being the "bad dog" and making other owners uncomfortable. He sticks to socializing with the dogs we already know.

    That's why we didn't bring our other dog back...he's stressed by the dog park. Zuzu had seemed to enjoy it until this dog started to pick on her.
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
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    I've had dogs my whole life and Zoey would have got a kick in the head.

    Also, I've seen Caesar Milan live and his stuff does work if you apply it correctly. My own dog is a Siberian Husy cross and can be trusted 100% off the lead - never aggressive, never strays too far.

    Dogs are pack animals, and they do need structure, and you do need to be in a higher position in the pack than said dog. Zoey is simply fulfilling the role of alpha over her owner. And she still would have got a kick in the head.
  • go2grrl
    go2grrl Posts: 190 Member
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    You're a huge fan of Caesar Milan? There is the problem right there. There were a bunch of other people at the park who are also fans of Caesar Milan or other pseudoscience advocates like him. Dominance/submission is possibly the worst approach for rearing animals with one foot in wolf culture and one foot in human culture. The real result of Caesar's way is a bunch of people who think bullying is "natural" and that dogs can "work it out".

    A well educated dog owner uses rewards to shape their dog's behavior, in a way that decreases aggression and increases play. If you reward dominance, you get dominance until it is self rewarding, and in the dog park, it should become obvious why this is the wrong trait to reinforce in a pet dog trying to fit into urban human culture.

    Dogs have a very high degree of social adaptability. I can't fathom why anyone would put less emphasis on that, and more emphasis on how they can be similar to wolves, other than the quick and visible but illusory results achieved by learning to act like an animal instead of teaching the animal something. That and I guess you feel like an instant badass when you "correct" (punish) a dog, whereas patiently working with treats and clickers feels like it can't possibly get results at first.

    ^^This.

    And how old is your puppy? The socialization window closes around 14 or so weeks. If your dog is younger and socialization is your primary goal, you might try looking for local meetups with dogs similarly aged and sized. I'd definitely skip the dog park for anything other than exercise during non-peak hours if it's the only enclosed area to which you have access.
  • Quest529
    Quest529 Posts: 103 Member
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    Dominance Theory (CM teachings) has been disproven by science. Below are numerous supporting resources.

    "american veterinary society for animal behavior
    http://avsabonline.org/blog/view/dom...shaw-blackwell


    Jean donaldson
    http://academyfordogtrainers.com/blo...-pack-animals/

    Dr. Yin DVM
    http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/



    The Dominance Controversy and Cesar Millan

    and my favorite site...

    http://www.nonlineardogs.com/

    the specifics of dominance theory...from non linear dogs.com
    http://www.nonlineardogs.com/100MostSillyPart1-2.html

    Association of Pet Dog trainers
    http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx


    http://www.examiner.com/article/dog-...e-21st-century
    BEYOND CESAR MILLAN - Home


    VIN News

    http://www.dogforum.com/redirect-to/...and_wolves.pdf

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hey-coordinate

    http://www.dogboston.com/askjo/cesarmillan.htm


    David Mech
    http://www.mnforsustain.org/wolf_mec...pha_status.htm


    http://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/comment...dominancepack/

    Clickersolutions
    http://www.clickersolutions.com/arti.../dominance.htm

    this one is heavy, for indept understanding.

    http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

    A few more

    http://www.apdt.com/about/ps/dominance.aspx

    http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/...defend-cm.html

    http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2297?SSAID=314743 "

    This list was taken from a discussion on DogForum.com (this thread: http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/dominance-dogs-4076/ ). Sorry, links from quote didn't come up as active. Please take a look if you'd like to learn more about it and positive reinforcement training.

    As for the dog park, they are generally dirty, people don't follow rules, and can quickly become a place you don't want to be. Even if you can control your dog, as you saw, you cannot control others and their dogs.

    We used to go every week, 3-4 times a week. Sometimes twice in a day. I saw awful changes in my pup (he was about 8 months at the time). He lost a lot of confidence, is now on edge around dogs bigger than him (due to a fight and bullying - which is what that husky was doing to your pup). Since the fall out, we've been hiking, doing agility and obedience (though positive reinforcement) he has really blossomed. Positive reinforcement does not mean permissive. There are just better ways to communicate with your dog than alpha rolls and hand-bites/jabs/taps. Yes, "clicker training" uses quiet a bit of treats starting out, but those are faded (as is the clicker) once the dog understands the behavior. The click can also signal another type of reward (playing tug, a ball, belly rubs). Rewards are the things your dog finds rewarding.

    To the poster who questioned how to handle the pup going after your hands. You would signal play was over and remove yourself from play. Teeth on skin ends playtime. A playful pup will learn quickly. If you have trouble getting away, go into another room and close the door or set up a gate to step over. The only response you need to give is removing yourself.

    This video from Kikopup goes through the process:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c77--cCHPyU

    BTW: Kikopup and Tab289 are great channels to watch on youtube. They address various behaviors and training challenges, but approach them from a positive reinforcement direction.
  • Joreanasaurous
    Joreanasaurous Posts: 1,384 Member
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    Dog parks are a recipe for disaster. Caesar is a moron. There are plenty of other ways to get adequate, well-rounded exercise for your dogs.

    Also want to echo speaking up. It's a public place, yes, but rules are rules.

    This guy put it very bluntly, but I have to admit, I agree with him. I've never had luck with dog parks. It's the equivalent of letting a bunch of sugar high 3 year old' who have never met run around in the playground when there is only 1 basketball and 1 swing, while their parents turn their back. I prefer structured dog classes as a way to social my dog (who also has dog aggressive behaviors/problems).

    In regards to Cesar- I personally don't like the relationship he establishes with his dogs. I would equate it to parents who say their kids are behaved because they are afraid of them. And granted, some dogs need that. But a dog with a delicate psyche who has been traumatized before does NOT need to be scared into submission. I would recommend looking into Victoria Stillwell. An amazing dog trainer who believes in positive reinforcement, patience, and consistency. Her techniques have worked wonders for my traumatized Jack Russel.

    I can understand how speaking up could be awkward and confrontational. However, it is public property. If the rule is posted (which I'm sure it must), a simple call to animal control could prompt an officer to monitor the park on a more regular basis.

    Simply put- no, you were not out of line. I hope you can find a more structured socialization for your dog.

    This x1000
  • fluffykitsune
    fluffykitsune Posts: 236 Member
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    Zoey is insecure, not dominant.
    The thought of her not being able to control her environment sends her into a fit. So she tries to correct (and ends up over correcting) things that she think will endanger her.
    The opportunity to repeat these actions make her more insecure and reactive.

    The dog park is an adult playground where they can gossip while their dogs cause havoc.
    Make a post on facebook or craigslist looking for puppy playdates and avoid the dog park.

    Let me guess, shes a herding breed? She sounds like one.

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