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Guns

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Replies

  • Posts: 1,741 Member

    Hey!!! Look at that. A SCOTUS ruling cited in a discussion about the Constitution. *mind blown*

    I'm missing your point - could you clarify?
  • Posts: 5,600 Member

    OK let me suggest that I am ignorant about the subject matter. I have read through all the posts, so I have got acquainted with the replies.

    Can you suggest to me how the UK has got it wrong with gun laws?

    The gun laws have opened the doors to banning other tools of self-protection. As I understand it, even carrying mace will get you similar punishment to that of carrying at least a knife.

    For purposes of self-protection, a gun is no different than any other tool. Let's take your scenario and let's even assume both parties do have guns, and are both currently carrying.

    Your fight starts out verbal. Maybe your dog took a dump in his flower bed and he's livid. He calls you all kinds of obscenities. What do you do? Well, you could do a couple of different things:

    1. Escalate to his level by name-calling back.
    2. Stand neutral and let him continue.
    3. Walk away.
    4. Actively diffuse the situation by apologizing to him and cleaning up the mess.

    Most people with common sense and decent social skills will pick 4, most other people will likely do 2 or 3, and some dunces will do 1.

    Let's say today you're that dunce (maybe you had a bad day, and this is the last straw). That escalates the issue, and pisses the neighbor off to the point that he throws a punch. Now what?

    1. Escalate by tackling him or hitting him back.
    2. Escalate even further by pulling out a non-lethal weapon.
    3. Escalate way far by pulling your gun.
    4. Be more or less neutral by evading his swings.
    5. Actively attempt to diffuse the situation.

    This one gets a bit more complicated. I can, however, tell you that it doesn't often go to 3 at this point. Why? Well, for one, you and your neighbor are both generally law-abiding citizens (albeit a little hot-headed at the moment), and here in America, we have some pretty hefty laws around "excessive force" and especially "lethal force," which all pretty much boil down to - unless you feel your life (or that of another) is actively being threatened, you cannot use deadly force of any sort without being prosecuted yourself. To note - this doesn't just apply to firearms, but also to certain unarmed combat maneuvers and anything else that is considered lethal force.

    At this point, a lot of people will do either 5 or 1, some hotheads might do 2, and people trained in things like martial arts will likely do 4.

    The vast majority of situations that start the way you presented will typically end here for one reason or another. Either a third party breaks it up, the situation gets diffused, or someone gets knocked out (or otherwise yields).

    Let's say, though, that for whatever reason, the neighbor is supremely stupid and the kitchen knife sitting on the counter. Perhaps one of the larger ones pictured here - http://www.bestkitchenknivesreviewed.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/best-kitchen-knife-set.jpg .

    Well, now that changes things. Unless you've been trained to handle an opponent that's wielding a blade, it's very likely that your life and limb are now in jeopardy. If you are trained, then you know that this situation just got a whole lot more dangerous, but you may still not feel the need to use lethal force. See how this is getting hairy? At this point, it's a judgement call, and this is where it pays to have more tools than just your gun in your self-defense toolbox.

    From here, you can do pretty much anything necessary without getting nailed for excessive force. If you're trained, that may include breaking his wrist in the process of disarming him, or knocking him out completely. Whether you pull your gun is a judgement call, and right now, your fate in the court room may depend on the judge and lawyers. If you have other options, you may be better off using them.

    Let's say you don't, and you end up pulling your gun and shooting him. Let's also say it's not an immediately lethal shot. Well, now you have the aftermath to deal with - not only are the police deployed, but so are the paramedics. Let's also say that while he didn't die right away, he died on the way to the hospital. This means:

    1. You are responsible for his death and have to bear the weight of that. Regardless of the justification, most people will tell you that killing someone is quite traumatic.
    2. You now have to go to court and defend yourself in the situation. Remember, you may win "on the street," but you can still lose in the courtroom. There's a chance you'll be found guilty of anything from aggravated assault to murder, all of which are felonies.
    3. You may have to do some amount time in a jail cell while the whole thing gets sorted out.
    4. You may have to deal with your community reputation. Regardless of what happens in the court room, people are rumor mills. You may be acquitted, but you could very well still end up as "that guy who killed his neighbor."
    5. You have to deal with the physical mess (and the fact that the place is a crime scene), particularly if it was in your house that it happened.

    That's a lot of crap and stress to deal with, no matter who you are. We may have a lot of guns in this country, but, for law-abiding citizens, pulling a gun is not done lightly, particularly in the situation that you've presented.
  • Posts: 2,576 Member

    On one side, SCOTUS and the Constitution, and on the other, that ^.

    Okay.

    This is like arguing with toddlers.

    Never denied the right for guns. Heck, I even cited the Constitution earlier. I just have a problem with the current fear related mindset of many gun rights advocates.
  • Posts: 423 Member
    I live in Nevada, pretty much everyone has one.
    On their person, to boot.
    *shrugs* :drinker:
  • Posts: 1,741 Member

    I'd suggest thinking about that if an inanimate piece of metal makes you want to puke. That's drama.

    I can see how at first glance it would seem so, but there's more to my reaction than I feel comfortable sharing in a public forum. It's an issue but it's not as simple as "drama."
  • Posts: 2,576 Member

    Your paranoia leads you to believe irrationally that people with arms are paranoid and therefore, implied as dangerous. The entire basis of your argument lacks logic, background, anything. It's not substantive, you are just afraid of people going beyond hunting and shooting paper. You are uncomfortable with your rights to protect yourself. Which is fine of course, albeit a touch sad in my opinion. Hey though, it works for you, of course until it doesn't. :)

    No paranoia here. Just look at these forums and others. Look at the mentality of many seeing a gun as an answer to any disagreement. I don't see the need for a gun. I am fortunate to live in a safe area and I have the situational awareness to avoid possible dangerous situations and I take other safer precautions. If having a gun makes you sleep better, have at it. I just suggest that all responsible gun owners try to teach others that pulling a gun is the worst case scenario rather than the first step.
  • Posts: 6,490 Member

    Never denied the right for guns. Heck, I even cited the Constitution earlier. I just have a problem with the current fear related mindset of many gun rights advocates.

    You do understand that this " fear related mindset" fits just as well on the anti-gun advocates. No? As I said earlier, I don't get this idea that we are afraid.
  • Posts: 2,078 Member
    In for guns:
    f01935b2-0281-4f63-8127-ba5e7961f116.jpg
    309_35528780574_2934_n.jpg
  • Posts: 6,129 Member

    No paranoia here. Just look at these forums and others. Look at the mentality of many seeing a gun as an answer to any disagreement. I don't see the need for a gun. I am fortunate to live in a safe area and I have the situational awareness to avoid possible dangerous situations and I take other safer precautions. If having a gun makes you sleep better, have at it. I just suggest that all responsible gun owners try to teach others that pulling a gun is the worst case scenario rather than the first step.

    you must get your straw wholesale... because you sure are building lots of strawmen on this thread. :tongue:
  • Posts: 299 Member
    Thought people were going to be flashing their biceps...I am disappoint :grumble:

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Me too!:grumble:

  • You're safe coming to the Maryland/DC area, we can't open carry.
    Please don't take this advice. It's not the people who open carry that u gotta worry about. Look at Baltimores murder rate.
  • Posts: 6,490 Member

    you must get your straw wholesale... because you sure are building lots of strawmen on this thread. :tongue:

    It's the same people on the wrong side of every argument, diet, guns, or otherwise. Logic and critical thinking are not common skills.
  • Posts: 12,950 Member
    No paranoia here. Just look at these forums and others. Look at the mentality of many seeing a gun as an answer to any disagreement. I don't see the need for a gun. I am fortunate to live in a safe area and I have the situational awareness to avoid possible dangerous situations and I take other safer precautions. If having a gun makes you sleep better, have at it. I just suggest that all responsible gun owners try to teach others that pulling a gun is the worst case scenario rather than the first step.

    Only hoplophobes assign their own irrational fear of bad acting (which is how they know they would act) on others. Is that what you are doing?

    The idea that people own arms just to sleep better at night is amusing too. Do most arms come with night lights, or a script for sleep aids? We all get it, you feel that only fear would make you purchase a firearm, so you then believe that since that would be your reason that must be the reasons for others. Luckily, that's not the reality.

    How safe are your precautions? Are they better than the Petit's?
  • Posts: 5,600 Member

    While true, though simplified, you must also know that this right to bear arms in a regulated militia also requires members of this militia to fall under the command of the President in Article 1, section 8, clause 15 of the Constitution. Also, that the reason that militias were included in the Constitution was because of an understandable distrust of standing armies during peacetime. When the Second Amendment was finally ratified, it still contained the right to bear arms within the context of a militia. Therefore, your write to bear arms is actually in order to be of service of your state's governor and then the Federal government.

    Actually, a militia is, by definition, not generally under the command of the President, except when the militia is mobilized in defense of the country (arguably from threats that are not the government itself). The Constitution makes it very clear that the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force are not militia, but military (the Armies). The militia is governed by the states under all other circumstance. Additionally, all able-bodied men ages 17 to 45, and both men and women who have served in the National Guard (not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States) are able to be called to duty in the unorganized/reserve militia (this actually largely strengthens the argument of the 2nd Amendment allowing all individuals to keep arms). Additionally, Article 1, section 8, clause 15 says nothing about the President, but grants the rights to govern the militia to the states (based on guidelines set forth by Congress), and gives the right to Congress (not the President) to mobilize the militia:
    To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions

    To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

    Article 1 is almost entirely about Congress. Article 2, Section 2, though, grants the President Commander in Chief power over the Armies, and over the Militia when called into actual service (in other words - when the Militia is actively defending the country).
    The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;

    http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

    ETA: Aw, looks like someone beat me to it. Oh well.
  • Posts: 102 Member
    I live every moment (awake and sleep) with a gun on my side, or within arms reach. Don't fear the gun; fear our criminals.
  • Posts: 2,712 Member
    I am sad that the thread finally went in this inevitable direction. I was hoping against hope that the open-minded OP would change her mind a little bit and that would be that. She could enjoy a visit to our fair country, and we in turn could enjoy a visit to hers. Oh well.

    And dbmata, I'd like to personally plead with you to lay off the hoplophobe. Your words will not have the intended effect, but rather the opposite. Gentle must be your watchword.
  • Posts: 6,990 Member
    I believe there are quite a few Americans walking around with guns. I carry, my H does as do 2 out of 4 of my neighbors... however I'm in Texas

    There are probably more of us in Texas. I'm licensed to carry but i rarely do. It's a pain to keep it hidden and if I carry it in my bag the extra weight makes my shoulder hurt after a few hours.
    I usually make a judgement call as to whether there are higher odds of needing it.. which I guess doesn't make sense.. because criminals like to shoot people in innocuous public places.
    I need a decent holster.


    edited for bad spelling.
  • Posts: 457 Member
    Im all for if people want guns/have them. Im all for people who dont want them. Chef dont judge.
  • Posts: 794 Member
    BJp9yDS.jpg
  • Posts: 213 Member
    BJp9yDS.jpg

    THANK YOU!!
  • Posts: 213 Member

    You're safe coming to the Maryland/DC area, we can't open carry.

    Right, because criminals follow laws...
  • Posts: 6,474 Member
    I own 6.
  • Posts: 880 Member
    I own 6.

    15....I win!!
  • Posts: 453 Member

    Right, because criminals follow laws...

    This is so sarcastically true. It is not how many people have guns as much as it is how many people respect persons and property...
  • Posts: 1,893 Member
    I'm just wondering how angry the people who are against everyday citizens carrying would be if an armed person who was not in law enforcement saved their rear in a bad situation. If you aren't comfortable with guns, don't own one. Just don't assume everyone who has one is out to get you.
  • Posts: 730 Member
    I own 6.

    That's a good start fellow Leaf fan. I have 6 on my top shelf lol Maybe time to thin the herd a little.
  • Posts: 5,481 Member
    "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

    -- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

    -- George Washington
    "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

    -- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188
  • Posts: 346 Member
    you need a permit and license to open carry and some states dont even allow that.
    its called gun control and i feel you are safer in a place where gun safety is taught and learned by the majority.
    The right to keep and bear arms (often referred as the right to bear arms or to have arms) is the people's right to have their own arms for their defense as described in the philosophical and political writings of Aristotle, Cicero, John Locke, Machiavelli, the English Whigs and others

    i learned to shoot a fire arm, before i could actually hold the weight of the gun on my own, i have been shooting for about 12 years, i own a number of guns. and will feel much safer when i can legally carry my 9mm in my purse instead of only hunters grade pepper spray.
  • Posts: 346 Member
    .
  • Posts: 346 Member

    Yes yes and yes
    guns dont kill people, people kill people.
    if guns kill people then, cars make people drive drunk, pencils misspell words, and spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
This discussion has been closed.