Please explain low carbs and it's magical proprieties
Replies
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AbsolutelyAre you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.
I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.
Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources.
I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.
You might not have access to the full text, so I screen-shotted the important things to note (although if you do have access, I recommend reading the entire paper over excerpts):
To support my comments on fatigue and weight loss efforts: http://snapplr.com/2hgg On blood lipids and overall health recommendations: http://snapplr.com/hpaz
White, A.M. et al. (2007). Blood Ketones Are Directly Related to Fatigue and Perceived Effort during Exercise in Overweight Adults Adhering to Low-Carbohydrate Diets for Weight Loss: A Pilot Study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 107, 1792–1796.
https://www-clinicalkey-com.ezp3.lib.umn.edu/#!/ContentPlayerCtrl/doPlayContent/1-s2.0-S0002822307014757
Many many studies will tell you that ketogenic diets don't make weight loss any more successful in the long term, even if they result in an initial drop. Some reading suggestions:
Astrup, A et al (2004). Atkins and other low-carbohydrate diets: hoax or an effective tool for weight loss? The Lancet 364, 897–899.
http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp2.lib.umn.edu/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869
Nordmann AJ et al (2006). Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 166, 285–293.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791
I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.
Wow, you just sided with me. I went to the link you provided and read the papers abstract, and it was in favor of low carb (LC) diets:! Here's the abstract:
Dietary restriction and increased physical activity are recommended for obesity treatment. Very low carbohydrate diets are used to promote weight loss, but their effects on physical function and exercise tolerance in overweight and obese individuals are largely unknown. The aim of this study was to compare the effects of a very low carbohydrate, high fat (LC) diet with a conventional high carbohydrate, low fat (HC) diet on aerobic capacity, fuel utilization during submaximal exercise, perceived exercise effort (RPE) and muscle strength. Sixty subjects (age: 49.2 ± 1.2 years; BMI: 33.6 ± 0.5 kg/m2) were randomly assigned to an energy restricted (∼6–7 MJ, 30% deficit), planned isocaloric LC or HC for 8 weeks. At baseline and week 8, subjects performed incremental treadmill exercise to exhaustion and handgrip and isometric knee extensor strength were assessed. Weight loss was greater in LC compared with HC (8.4 ± 0.4% and 6.7 ± 0.5%, respectively; P = 0.01 time × diet). Peak oxygen uptake and heart rate were unchanged in both groups (P > 0.17). Fat oxidation increased during submaximal exercise in LC but not HC (P < 0.001 time × diet effect). On both diets, perception of effort during submaximal exercise and handgrip strength decreased (P ≤ 0.03 for time), but knee extensor strength remained unchanged (P > 0.25). An LC weight loss diet shifted fuel utilization toward greater fat oxidation during exercise, but had no detrimental effect on maximal or submaximal markers of aerobic exercise performance or muscle strength compared with an HC diet. Further studies are required to determine the interaction of LC diets with regular exercise training and the long-term health effects.0 -
It is a low carb diet that in 2008 was endorsed by the Swedish health and welfare board, which is the first time in history that a low carb diet was ever endorsed by a national health board.
The only low-carb diet "endorsed" in Sweden calls for 40% of calories to be derived from carbs. That is *far* above the levels advocated by the low-carb faithful.
Quote from Swedish Council on Health Technology Assessment (SBU):
…a greater increase in HDL cholesterol (“the good cholesterol”) without having any adverse affects on LDL cholesterol (“the bad cholesterol”). This applies to both the moderate low-carbohydrate intake of less than 40 percent of the total energy intake, as well as to the stricter low-carbohydrate diet, where carbohydrate intake is less than 20 percent of the total energy intake. In addition, the stricter low-carbohydrate diet will lead to improved glucose levels for individuals with obesity and diabetes, and to marginally decreased levels of triglycerides.
You can download their entire report here, it is in Swedish, but if your Google translator is working properly, it will translate it for you...
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&tl=en&prev=_dd&u=http://www.sbu.se/sv/Publicerat/Gul/Mat-vid-fetma-/
Why not endorse an eating lifestyle that promotes eating REAL FOOD with a macronutrient proportion that does not promote fat storage and diabetes?
Please address this.
I already did previously in this thread:
Here's a TED talk presentation by medical doctor Dr. Peter Attia:
http://www.ted.com/talks/peter_attia_what_if_we_re_wrong_about_diabetes.html
ETA: grammar fix
There was no conclusion drawn from that. Someone stating their opinion.... Even admitting to being biased during the video. I cant believe I just wasted time watching that to see someone cry at the end...0 -
"Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good."
Sarahnade42x, if you're interested in the science this would be a good place for you to start your research.0 -
AbsolutelyAre you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.
I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.
Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources. I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.
You might not have access to the full text, so I screen-shotted the important things to note (although if you do have access, I recommend reading the entire paper over excerpts):
To support my comments on fatigue and weight loss efforts: http://snapplr.com/2hgg On blood lipids and overall health recommendations: http://snapplr.com/hpaz
White, A.M. et al. (2007). Blood Ketones Are Directly Related to Fatigue and Perceived Effort during Exercise in Overweight Adults Adhering to Low-Carbohydrate Diets for Weight Loss: A Pilot Study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 107, 1792–1796.
https://www-clinicalkey-com.ezp3.lib.umn.edu/#!/ContentPlayerCtrl/doPlayContent/1-s2.0-S0002822307014757
Many many studies will tell you that ketogenic diets don't make weight loss any more successful in the long term, even if they result in an initial drop. Some reading suggestions:
Astrup, A et al (2004). Atkins and other low-carbohydrate diets: hoax or an effective tool for weight loss? The Lancet 364, 897–899.
http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp2.lib.umn.edu/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869
Nordmann AJ et al (2006). Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 166, 285–293.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791
I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.
Finishing a neuroscience degree and have a strong background in biochem and physiology at 19?0 -
This is a valid question Yanicka, and I'm sure I'm going to get a whole bunch of bloggers on MFP attacking me on this, but I will give it a go anyway....
I discovered LCHF, which stands for low carb high fat, on a business trip to Scandinavia. It is a low carb diet that in 2008 was endorsed by the Swedish health and welfare board, which is the first time in history that a low carb diet was ever endorsed by a national health board. When I returned home, I decided to take the plunge and go on the diet, and after being on it for several months, I cannot believe how well it works, not only for weight loss but also skin cleared up, sleep better, more energy, no more hunger pains, allergies gone, etc. I've been on MFP for a long time, without success, and it wasn't until I switched to LCHF that I finally figured it out and consistently losing at least 1 lb per week. I'm also noticing the LCHF is picking up speed in other parts of the world, including US and Canada, endorsed by medical doctors and universities with medical faculty.
The low carb diet is based on the premise that we have two metabolic regimes: glycolysis and ketosis. We have these two metabolic states because of the survival mechanisms that we inherited through evolution. These two metabolic regimes control two very important hormones, called insulin and leptin. Insulin controls the amount of sugar we ingest that is stored as fat, and leptin controls the signal that goes back to the brain saying "stop eating, I'm full". During the glycolysis regime, insulin is promoted to convert sugar to fat and store fat, while the leptin hormone signal is blocked - result is sugar is stored as fat, and brain doesn't get the "stop eating, I'm full signal". During ketosis, insulin levels remain low, and therefore depressed or no conversion of sugar to fat, and leptin signal does not get blocked, telling the brain "stop eating, I'm full" when sufficient food is eaten.
Through evolutionary process, we developed survival mechanism to thrive through changes in food availability during the seasons. During seasons when there is high carb foods available (like strawberries, peaches, etc) the advantageous metabolic regime is glycolysis - because it "fattens" you up in preparation for the subsequent "lean" seasons, and your leptin signal is blocked, so it causes you to "gorge". During the season without availability of high carb foods, your body survives perfectly well on ketosis, eating mainly a protein and fat rich diet (I.e. Animal rich diet and not much fruit) as well as burning your body's stored fat and leptin signal gets to your brain telling you to stop eating when full. We live in a modern food economy, where with agricultural and transport industry, we no longer have seasonal food deprivation (I.e. Strawberries are available year round). Also, the work it used to take to gather foods has been minimized with mechanical means, so for a few cents today you can have a huge plate of spaghetti - imagine what it would take if you were to make pasta noodles from grain sources without use of machines or tools. We are in permanent glycolysis metabolic state, no more need for ketosis for survival, and therefore in a state with insulin levels promoting fat storage, and leptin blocking the "I'm full, stop eating" signal. As a result, to stay lean in a permanent glycolysis state (which is possible) you must expend many hours at the gym, burning your calories - seems a bit silly (why eat calories to burn them at the gym - it's like forcing yourself to make more money so that you can buy more pairs of jeans, when you only need a couple of jeans to begin with).
A good site providing free advice on LCHF by a medical doctor is www.dietdoctor.com. There are no gimmicks, no powders, no bars....just real science based advice and real food discussed. There are also universities with medical faculty who endorse and provide science-based evidence on health benefits of low carb eating, like the university of California at San Francisco.
Ok, I know what's going to happen now....a bevy of bloggers who are going to rip this apart. Some are pretty outright nasty commentators, and many of which in past blogs have told me that there is nothing wrong with eating highly processed food, fast food, junk food and sodas. Meanwhile, the obesity and diabetes 2 epidemic is getting out of control and will soon present a terrible challenge to the healthcare industry and taxpayers. Here's a thought...how about if we eat foods that does not cause fat gain, food addiction or hunger pains, and that does not require us to spend hours in the gym. How about if we eat real food, resembling what it looks like from animal or plant origin, instead of processed garbage. How about if we reduce our carbon footprint, and not have industrial food industry making highly processed junk, and shipping it all over the place. How about if we don't eat more due to food addictions, saving money on food, and being healthier? Why not endorse an eating lifestyle that promotes eating REAL FOOD with a macronutrient proportion that does not promote fat storage and diabetes?
I enjoyed this post very much. thank you.
Linda0 -
AbsolutelyAre you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.
I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.
Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources. I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.
You might not have access to the full text, so I screen-shotted the important things to note (although if you do have access, I recommend reading the entire paper over excerpts):
To support my comments on fatigue and weight loss efforts: http://snapplr.com/2hgg On blood lipids and overall health recommendations: http://snapplr.com/hpaz
White, A.M. et al. (2007). Blood Ketones Are Directly Related to Fatigue and Perceived Effort during Exercise in Overweight Adults Adhering to Low-Carbohydrate Diets for Weight Loss: A Pilot Study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 107, 1792–1796.
https://www-clinicalkey-com.ezp3.lib.umn.edu/#!/ContentPlayerCtrl/doPlayContent/1-s2.0-S0002822307014757
Many many studies will tell you that ketogenic diets don't make weight loss any more successful in the long term, even if they result in an initial drop. Some reading suggestions:
Astrup, A et al (2004). Atkins and other low-carbohydrate diets: hoax or an effective tool for weight loss? The Lancet 364, 897–899.
http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp2.lib.umn.edu/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869
Nordmann AJ et al (2006). Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 166, 285–293.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791
I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.
Wow, you just sided with me. I went to the link you provided and read the papers abstract, and it was in favor of low carb (LC) diets:! Here's the abstract:
Dietary restriction and increased physical activity are recommended for obesity treatment. Very low carbohydrate diets are used to promote weight loss, but their effects on physical function and exercise tolerance in overweight and obese individuals are largely unknown. The aim of this study was to compare the effects of a very low carbohydrate, high fat (LC) diet with a conventional high carbohydrate, low fat (HC) diet on aerobic capacity, fuel utilization during submaximal exercise, perceived exercise effort (RPE) and muscle strength. Sixty subjects (age: 49.2 ± 1.2 years; BMI: 33.6 ± 0.5 kg/m2) were randomly assigned to an energy restricted (∼6–7 MJ, 30% deficit), planned isocaloric LC or HC for 8 weeks. At baseline and week 8, subjects performed incremental treadmill exercise to exhaustion and handgrip and isometric knee extensor strength were assessed. Weight loss was greater in LC compared with HC (8.4 ± 0.4% and 6.7 ± 0.5%, respectively; P = 0.01 time × diet). Peak oxygen uptake and heart rate were unchanged in both groups (P > 0.17). Fat oxidation increased during submaximal exercise in LC but not HC (P < 0.001 time × diet effect). On both diets, perception of effort during submaximal exercise and handgrip strength decreased (P ≤ 0.03 for time), but knee extensor strength remained unchanged (P > 0.25). An LC weight loss diet shifted fuel utilization toward greater fat oxidation during exercise, but had no detrimental effect on maximal or submaximal markers of aerobic exercise performance or muscle strength compared with an HC diet. Further studies are required to determine the interaction of LC diets with regular exercise training and the long-term health effects.
I said that ketogenic diets result in an initial drop, as shown in that study and others. I also said that the results aren't consistent over the long term, which you'll also find in the literature. An 8 week study only shows the first half of that trend.Finishing a neuroscience degree and have a strong background in biochem and physiology at 19?
I started college full time at 15 and am a month from 20, so yes. I'm taking an extra year for a genetics degree as well. I have extensive organic/biochemistry lab experience and worked in a phys research lab (heavily biochem/biotech based) for two years before joining my current lab. My age isn't that relevant, but thanks for noticing :glasses:0 -
I said that ketogenic diets result in an initial drop, as shown in that study and others. I also said that the results aren't consistent over the long term, which you'll also find in the literature. An 8 week study only shows the first half of that trend.
Like.0 -
AbsolutelyAre you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.
I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.
Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources. I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.
You might not have access to the full text, so I screen-shotted the important things to note (although if you do have access, I recommend reading the entire paper over excerpts):
To support my comments on fatigue and weight loss efforts: http://snapplr.com/2hgg On blood lipids and overall health recommendations: http://snapplr.com/hpaz
White, A.M. et al. (2007). Blood Ketones Are Directly Related to Fatigue and Perceived Effort during Exercise in Overweight Adults Adhering to Low-Carbohydrate Diets for Weight Loss: A Pilot Study. Journal of the American Dietetic Association 107, 1792–1796.
https://www-clinicalkey-com.ezp3.lib.umn.edu/#!/ContentPlayerCtrl/doPlayContent/1-s2.0-S0002822307014757
Many many studies will tell you that ketogenic diets don't make weight loss any more successful in the long term, even if they result in an initial drop. Some reading suggestions:
Astrup, A et al (2004). Atkins and other low-carbohydrate diets: hoax or an effective tool for weight loss? The Lancet 364, 897–899.
http://www.sciencedirect.com.ezp2.lib.umn.edu/science/article/pii/S0140673604169869
Nordmann AJ et al (2006). Effects of low-carbohydrate vs low-fat diets on weight loss and cardiovascular risk factors: A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials. Arch Intern Med 166, 285–293.
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=409791
I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.
Wow, you just sided with me. I went to the link you provided and read the papers abstract, and it was in favor of low carb (LC) diets:! Here's the abstract:
Dietary restriction and increased physical activity are recommended for obesity treatment. Very low carbohydrate diets are used to promote weight loss, but their effects on physical function and exercise tolerance in overweight and obese individuals are largely unknown. The aim of this study was to compare the effects of a very low carbohydrate, high fat (LC) diet with a conventional high carbohydrate, low fat (HC) diet on aerobic capacity, fuel utilization during submaximal exercise, perceived exercise effort (RPE) and muscle strength. Sixty subjects (age: 49.2 ± 1.2 years; BMI: 33.6 ± 0.5 kg/m2) were randomly assigned to an energy restricted (∼6–7 MJ, 30% deficit), planned isocaloric LC or HC for 8 weeks. At baseline and week 8, subjects performed incremental treadmill exercise to exhaustion and handgrip and isometric knee extensor strength were assessed. Weight loss was greater in LC compared with HC (8.4 ± 0.4% and 6.7 ± 0.5%, respectively; P = 0.01 time × diet). Peak oxygen uptake and heart rate were unchanged in both groups (P > 0.17). Fat oxidation increased during submaximal exercise in LC but not HC (P < 0.001 time × diet effect). On both diets, perception of effort during submaximal exercise and handgrip strength decreased (P ≤ 0.03 for time), but knee extensor strength remained unchanged (P > 0.25). An LC weight loss diet shifted fuel utilization toward greater fat oxidation during exercise, but had no detrimental effect on maximal or submaximal markers of aerobic exercise performance or muscle strength compared with an HC diet. Further studies are required to determine the interaction of LC diets with regular exercise training and the long-term health effects.
I said that ketogenic diets result in an initial drop, as shown in that study and others. I also said that the results aren't consistent over the long term, which you'll also find in the literature. An 8 week study only shows the first half of that trend.Finishing a neuroscience degree and have a strong background in biochem and physiology at 19?
I started college full time at 15 and am a month from 20, so yes. I'm taking an extra year for a genetics degree as well. I have extensive organic/biochemistry lab experience and worked in a phys research lab (heavily biochem/biotech based) for two years before joining my current lab. My age isn't that relevant, but thanks for noticing :glasses:
You initially countered my point stating that low carb diets were not effective, and then cited a paper, which I then looked up, and that actually backed up MY point, stating that low carb / high fat diets ARE SUPERIOR to high carb diets. Now you reply with another statement saying that the paper YOU cited was only an 8 week study, it doesn't count as it doesn't show long term effects. YOU are the one who cited the paper to back up YOUR argument that low carb doesn't work, and I guess you thought I was not going to look it up, and actually read it, and then also discover that it went AGAINST YOUR argument. So, know you made another statement, that there is scientific literature showing that following a low carb diet does not yield results in the long term. How about citing scientific peer reviewed literature to back your second point? So far, all you have proven is the opposite to your hypothesis.0 -
...YOUR argument that low carb doesn't work...
You continue to misunderstand the original point of this thread as well as misrepresent what other posters are actually saying.0 -
So, can anyone post their macronutrient intake and calorie expenditure vs. weight lost during a ketogenic diet that lasted, say, 3 months or more, and then the same during a non-ketogenic diet that lasted the same amount of time?
Unfortunately, I did not count calories during my low-carb phase, but I can tell you that I stuck faithfully to it while lifting heavy and doing HIIT for about 8 months. I lost 4 pounds. That is to say, the amount of weight I lose when I deplete my glycogen stores. Then my brain chem went haywire due to serotonin depletion, lost my impulse control, and fell into a depressive crisis.
I'm stabilized on a moderate amount of carbs finally, after 3 years and gaining back 40 pounds, and now I know how to keep my brain chemistry stable using balanced meals.
The theory of why low carb would make it hard to store fat makes sense to me. It may work well to help some people control their blood sugar. If you have depression and it is not well-controlled at the moment, it may help your depression if you give it a try. Some people find the blood sugar effects help them with their depression in that case. It absolutely is not right for everyone, and it's not the magical cure people make it out to be.
If you do not suffer from depression, I personally don't see a reason not to try it if you want to, but if you do and it is already managed, I strongly urge you to find another way. It is notworth the risk.0 -
So, can anyone post their macronutrient intake and calorie expenditure vs. weight lost during a ketogenic diet that lasted, say, 3 months or more, and then the same during a non-ketogenic diet that lasted the same amount of time?
I actually have this data for myself, as I spent roughly 12 months on a very low carb diet. I left it for good about six months ago. Weight loss tracked caloric deficit, to a very high degree of accuracy.
Unfortunately, it was very difficult to maintain a caloric deficit because the diet induced extremely high levels of food craving for the millions of foods on the strictly verboten list. And virtually every athletic metric suffered significantly in the process - as a point of reference, my V02max has doubled since leaving low-carb land.0 -
I said that ketogenic diets result in an initial drop, as shown in that study and others. I also said that the results aren't consistent over the long term, which you'll also find in the literature. An 8 week study only shows the first half of that trend.
Like.
Again, consistent with the findings of McDonald and Krieger. Almost all the available data when viewed long term shows greater up front "weight" loss (water and glycogen included) and no metabolic advantage over time.0 -
If you do it correctly and remove the bad carbs which come from refined sugars and processed foods then it is more like paleo which is really great for you. You get to eat more whole and healthy foods and get the most out of your calories. Of course it is hard to eat perfect all the time.0
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I did NOT write this post, so all credit to original poster...who I myself have never had the opportunity to converse with but applaud him for taking the time to write this.
This may answer some of your questions:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1131894-new-to-keto-are-you-hungry-do-you-have-cravings-long?page=1#posts-179032660 -
Wen I was younger I tried it and my kidneys disagreed with the high protein and my brain disagreed with the low carb (I never lost that fuzziness).
I did watch the BBC documentary 'the atkins diet' or something like this and they had various studies in there and concluded that it only works, because the protein leaves you more sated and thus you eat less overall and have a calorie deficit. There was no evidence to be found that 1500 calories of low carb was any different to 1500 calories of a 'normal' diet in terms of weight loss. Perhaps there are newer studies now that have found that to be different though.
It's not an issue for me now anyways considering I have serious problems digesting animal protein and I am allergic (anaphylaxis) to soy.0 -
AbsolutelyAre you thinking of a ketogenic low carb diet? That plan basically relies on the idea that:
-Your cells (especially your brain) need glucose (a carbohydrate) to produce energy.
-If your body doesn't have enough carbohydrate, it'll turn stored fat into something called a "ketone body" that can be used for energy instead. This uses up fat storage.
I don't swear by this diet; I actually don't think it's a good idea at all. Ketones are a much less efficient energy source and you'll most likely feel fatigued or foggy after the switch (your brain would be the first organ to suffer from a drop in glucose levels). Also consider how high your blood lipid profile would be on a low-carb, high-fat diet. Not good. Personally, I'd rather give my body adequate levels of all the nutrients it needs instead of pseudo-starve it and hope the ketogenesis makes me drop a few pounds.
Can you provide sources for your statements? As in peer reviewed scientific literature, or medical doctor advice on his/her website, or information disseminated by a university with medical faculty? Very easy to state claims without back up of sources. I'm finishing a neuroscience degree with a strong background in biochemistry and human physiology, but apparently PubMed links can make anyone on this site more credible, so let's do it.
I'm totally open to more discussion and reading (there are aspects of these articles, and others - that I agree and disagree with), but at this point I don't think following a low carb ketogenic diet is advisable -- definitely not for me or my health goals. I'm much more strongly convinced by the data on general caloric restriction and health, and I think you would be too if you looked into that.
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet....with ALL test results coming back normal after beginning such? I'd love to send you the 'data'. If you're going to talk careers and educations, please do so with complete respect and understand that although these are JUST links,for some people on this site they have provided results and from from physicians and doctors(I have went to 5 neurologists!....5!!!! and coming from 3600 mg of medications, not including vitamins - my seizures have only started 6 years ago too). I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
In the meantime, I have lost weight, over 11 pounds, no longer crave carbs or sugars, and my energy level has went through the roof (let me remind you that most seizure medications have a side effect of making one tired, groggy and absentminded).
So please, all I'm asking, is take this into consideration. I DO NOT judge another's diet approach - do MORE research yourself before you judge another's. The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.0 -
You initially countered my point stating that low carb diets were not effective, and then cited a paper, which I then looked up, and that actually backed up MY point, stating that low carb / high fat diets ARE SUPERIOR to high carb diets. Now you reply with another statement saying that the paper YOU cited was only an 8 week study, it doesn't count as it doesn't show long term effects. YOU are the one who cited the paper to back up YOUR argument that low carb doesn't work, and I guess you thought I was not going to look it up, and actually read it, and then also discover that it went AGAINST YOUR argument. So, know you made another statement, that there is scientific literature showing that following a low carb diet does not yield results in the long term. How about citing scientific peer reviewed literature to back your second point? So far, all you have proven is the opposite to your hypothesis.
This is getting really long and tedious, but hopefully this breakdown helps you understand...Let me know if you have any concerns that I'm somehow still not addressing.
My first point: Ketogenesis elicits an initial weight drop. I showed you evidence for this and you agree with it anyways.
My second point: Ketogenic diets are not superior over the long-term (i.e. >1 year). BOTH articles I cited as suggested reading agree on this:
Astrup et al: "Although these studies provide evidence that a low-carbohydrate diet does produce increased weight loss over 3–6 months and might be superior to the recommended calorie-reduced low-fat diet, the 12-month studies also indicate that the low-carbohydrate diet may be no better in the longer term. The studies also had important limitations. Adherence to the diets was low, and dropout rates were high. [...] The three studies are important, but are not evidence that low-carbohydrate diets in the long term are superior to the energy-restricted low-fat diet."
Nordmann et al: "After 6 months, individuals assigned to low-carbohydrate diets had lost more weight than individuals randomized to low-fat diets. [...] After 12 months there was no significant difference in weight loss between individuals in the 3 trials randomized to low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets."
Both studies, as well as the White study on keto and fatigue, support what I've been saying to you.0 -
The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.
Oh, MFP...
...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years. I'm very very glad this path seems to offer a meaningful life improvement for you, but moving the brain to a relatively inefficient fuel source to deal with significant neurological issues is quite a different matter than what the typical dieter is dealing with.0 -
The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.
Oh, MFP...
...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"
Excuse me?
Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.
If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.
Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.
Yep. Engineered for epileptic children originally. And been around forever.
Just because it is a disease treatment doesn't automatically make it a superior diet for everyone.
From the Epilepsy Foundation:
Side Effects
Like all the other treatments for epilepsy, the ketogenic diet has side effects, which may or may not affect a particular child. Some side effects may go away if caught and managed early on. Knowing what to look for can make a big difference. Reported side effects include dehydration, constipation, and, sometimes, complications from kidney stones or gall stones.
Adult women on the diet may have menstrual irregularities. Pancreatitis (inflammation of the pancreas), decreased bone density and certain eye problems have also been reported. Again, this is why the medical team closely follows children or adults who are on the diet.
The diet lacks several important vitamins which have to be added through supplements. Sometimes high levels of fat build up in the blood, especially if a child has an inborn defect in his ability to process fat. This possibility can lead to serious effects, which is another reason for careful monitoring.0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.
Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.
This is dieting site, not a "deal with neurological issues" site. The person you are referencing is correct to do so within the context of this site.0 -
I AM not saying it is superior, I never did. All I am saying is....hm, maybe others shouldn't immediately attack it, because for MANY it DOES work, and causes MANY benefits, MOST without MEDICAL conditions.0
-
The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.
Oh, MFP...
...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"
Excuse me?
Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.
If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.
I think you're missing my point. Following your logic, every single post should be prefaced with a disclaimer that covers things like specific medical conditions...but it isn't necessary because (almost) everyone understands that it's implied.
And the research doesn't support your position that doughnuts cause diabetes, happy meals cause heart disease, and cake causes clogged arteries. It's this kind of ridiculous thinking that others are trying to combat with actual research...but then you play the "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION" as support for why everyone should be on the same special diet.
If you don't understand this distinction, nothing I can type will persuade you...but just realize that there are a lot of people out there who *do* understand the distinction I'm making...and we all hope your day of enlightenment is soon...for the benefit of all who might be misled by your posts.
Edit: clarification0 -
This is getting really long and tedious, but hopefully this breakdown helps you understand...Let me know if you have any concerns that I'm somehow still not addressing.
My first point: Ketogenesis elicits an initial weight drop. I showed you evidence for this and you agree with it anyways.
My second point: Ketogenic diets are not superior over the long-term (i.e. >1 year). BOTH articles I cited as suggested reading agree on this:
Astrup et al: "Although these studies provide evidence that a low-carbohydrate diet does produce increased weight loss over 3–6 months and might be superior to the recommended calorie-reduced low-fat diet, the 12-month studies also indicate that the low-carbohydrate diet may be no better in the longer term. The studies also had important limitations. Adherence to the diets was low, and dropout rates were high. [...] The three studies are important, but are not evidence that low-carbohydrate diets in the long term are superior to the energy-restricted low-fat diet."
Nordmann et al: "After 6 months, individuals assigned to low-carbohydrate diets had lost more weight than individuals randomized to low-fat diets. [...] After 12 months there was no significant difference in weight loss between individuals in the 3 trials randomized to low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets."
Both studies, as well as the White study on keto and fatigue, support what I've been saying to you.
I tried going very low carb once. I lasted 6 months. The fatique was finally too much for me. I went from briskly walking from task to task in the lab to a slow painful crawl. They call this the low-carb 'flu' and your 'supposed' to get over it. I never did.0 -
The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.
Oh, MFP...
...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"
ROTFL0 -
The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
I had assumed OP was asking about how the diet worked for healthy individuals without a specific medical condition.
Oh, MFP...
...a nice variation on "SURPRISE MEDICAL CONDITION!"
Excuse me?
Are medical conditions not to be taken into consideration upon maintaining one's health? Then why diet at all! Diabetes, donuts, heart disease and happy meals, clogged arteries and cake, here I come! I WANT it ALL so I'm going to eat it all. Screw dieting. What's the point, I'll try them all at once.
If anyone wants to pretend to know anything about keto, they could easily find even the simplest online resources, quotes, medical studies, so on about epilepsy and dieting. To not know the two have can be intertwined is to show all the more that one has no credit to speak on it.
I don't think your body works in quite the same way as a normal body which is what the other poster was getting at. It's not meant to be insulting :huh:0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet.......I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
Very low carb has been a standard part of the potential treatment regime for those types conditions for donkey's years.
Exactly my point. She spoke saying that she saw the diet as not advisable....apparently, for some, it can be.
This is dieting site, not a "deal with neurological issues" site. The person you are referencing is correct to do so within the context of this site.
Then my only suggestion? You may want to expand your reasons as to why members may be on this site. Weight loss and health, usually have more than one goal and one side effect.0 -
Would you care to suggest to me why my epilogist and primary care physician have me on a Ketogenic diet....with ALL test results coming back normal after beginning such? I'd love to send you the 'data'. If you're going to talk careers and educations, please do so with complete respect and understand that although these are JUST links,for some people on this site they have provided results and from from physicians and doctors(I have went to 5 neurologists!....5!!!! and coming from 3600 mg of medications, not including vitamins - my seizures have only started 6 years ago too). I've been seizure free since on Keto. The last time I had one, I had 4 in one day, this is BEFORE my keto diet. AND I have been able to decrease my medication.
In the meantime, I have lost weight, over 11 pounds, no longer crave carbs or sugars, and my energy level has went through the roof (let me remind you that most seizure medications have a side effect of making one tired, groggy and absentminded).
So please, all I'm asking, is take this into consideration. I DO NOT judge another's diet approach - do MORE research yourself before you judge another's. The poster was asking a question about HOW the diet worked.
Yes! I'm absolutely for you making dietary decisions that are approved by your physicians FOR YOU. Ketogenic diets do play a strong role in the management of epilepsy and if you're seeing positive results from making that switch, then I'm extremely glad for that. I hope you don't see my posts as an attack towards a method that has worked for you so far. I'm glad it has, truly :flowerforyou: You bring up a great point that all the research we're discussing is based on statistics and not the individual. However, the research also shows us trends about what a randomized sample of people experiences - and in the case of keto and weight loss, they tend not to experience much of a difference after one year.
At the end of the day, people will make their own nutritional choices and eventually find what works best for them -- my only hope is that in the meantime that they don't misinterpret the research or fall for pseudoscience weight loss methods without first thinking critically about the data or talking to a physician.0
This discussion has been closed.
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