"You can't build muscle on a calorie deficit"

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  • pcastagner
    pcastagner Posts: 1,606 Member

    Gaining strength isn't always a result of increased muscle. You will have neural adaptation to increased resistance.

    I was just going to ask this! I think this answer's a little over my head though. I get the whole not actually adding muscle if you're eating in deficient (which I am), but I am able to lift more than I was at the beginning. Is there a difference between getting stronger and adding muscle?

    Thanks to everyone for sharing your smarts! A really interesting read.

    Getting stronger is really about neurological adaptations - basically, your brain 'talking' to you muscles better/more efficiently. There is some overlap however, as at some point you need more muscle for your brain to talk to.

    Also, you need your ligaments and tendons etc to be strong enough to lift more, which is not related to adding muscle.

    It's all of the above, not just muscle or just neurological. Limitations in any department are definitive

    Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Not sure based on your response.

    Disagreeing but only a bit. Muscle mass is definitely a limiting factor in absolute strength.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member

    Gaining strength isn't always a result of increased muscle. You will have neural adaptation to increased resistance.

    I was just going to ask this! I think this answer's a little over my head though. I get the whole not actually adding muscle if you're eating in deficient (which I am), but I am able to lift more than I was at the beginning. Is there a difference between getting stronger and adding muscle?

    Thanks to everyone for sharing your smarts! A really interesting read.

    Getting stronger is really about neurological adaptations - basically, your brain 'talking' to you muscles better/more efficiently. There is some overlap however, as at some point you need more muscle for your brain to talk to.

    Also, you need your ligaments and tendons etc to be strong enough to lift more, which is not related to adding muscle.


    It's all of the above, not just muscle or just neurological. Limitations in any department are definitive

    Are you agreeing or disagreeing? Not sure based on your response.


    Disagreeing but only a bit. Muscle mass is definitely a limiting factor in absolute strength.

    I did say that - which is why I was confused.
  • moxiept
    moxiept Posts: 200 Member
    Keeping these links to read later.
  • petermad123
    petermad123 Posts: 1
    To maintain your strength
    Lets say you don't lift while cutting weight
    Chances are once you do loose the weight
    you will also loose strength.
  • iballin
    iballin Posts: 21
    Actually an obese person in a deficit can definitely build muscle , because a deficit to maintain a bunch of fat is different then a deficit to maintain muscle which people never understand, you take a an obese person with minimal muscle and 100 pounds of fat, and say it takes 4000 calories to maintain that fat, well it might take 2500 calories to build muscle on his frame under that fat, and still oxidize fat, my obese friend lost 110 pounds and gained a ton of muscle in the process and the excuse oh it was just hidden is not viable here, he ended up at 10 percent body fat at 180 pounds 5 foot 8 , so yes you can build muscle in a deficit if your largely over weight with minimal muscle, to say an obese guy to build muscle has to eat the 4000 calories hes used to in order to create protein synthesis is just flat out wrong. now for a bodybuilder whos looking to add more muscle yes he has to be in a surplus but for someone just starting out and overweight theres a muscle maintenance and a fat maintenance
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,024 Member
    Actually an obese person in a deficit can definitely build muscle , because a deficit to maintain a bunch of fat is different then a deficit to maintain muscle which people never understand, you take a an obese person with minimal muscle and 100 pounds of fat, and say it takes 4000 calories to maintain that fat, well it might take 2500 calories to build muscle on his frame under that fat, and still oxidize fat, my obese friend lost 110 pounds and gained a ton of muscle in the process and the excuse oh it was just hidden is not viable here, he ended up at 10 percent body fat at 180 pounds 5 foot 8 , so yes you can build muscle in a deficit if your largely over weight with minimal muscle, to say an obese guy to build muscle has to eat the 4000 calories hes used to in order to create protein synthesis is just flat out wrong. now for a bodybuilder whos looking to add more muscle yes he has to be in a surplus but for someone just starting out and overweight theres a muscle maintenance and a fat maintenance
    There are exceptions to the main rule and your friend is one of them. The other 2 would be:
    A person who's NEVER weight trained consistently
    A returning athlete after a long layoff

    Other than those, the general population would need a surplus to build new muscle tissue.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • pavrg
    pavrg Posts: 277 Member
    It's moreso that the 'rule' is only applicable to people who are already relatively lean, which is what information on the subject is geared to.

    In 2013 America, that's a small minority.
  • happyrelation
    happyrelation Posts: 28
    Young adults are already in a category that lose weight a lot faster than say someone who is 45.
    I am 40 and found P90X and Insanity worked well..very well. Bill Phillips Body for Life worked very well years ago.
    And I wanted something that was easier on my body, didn't take as much time, and I didn't have to think about what my next meal was going to be.
    I researched and found two that my full criteria. I know there are more out there...
    First I found one that is great for men and women at http://buildthemuscle.net.
    And the one I decided to do because it has a great support system of women doing the program and finished the program, just for women, and simply laid out and guaranteed and I found it at http://inshapenow.net.
    I'm losing on average 1 1/2 pounds a week.
    I think one of the keys to success is setting yourself up for success. Find a plan that is realistic to your lifestyle so you aren't cheating or angry at yourself for missing a workout or a meal.

    To your lifestyle change!
  • Kimsoontobe
    Kimsoontobe Posts: 110 Member
    Bump
  • obrientp
    obrientp Posts: 546 Member
    In for reading later. This is great stuff.
  • NormInv
    NormInv Posts: 3,303 Member
    every body is different. TDEE, deficit etc are highly subjective things. you cant make a broad statement that a guy of height X and weight Y burns 123 calories per day. Its simply wrong. So I think muscle can be built on what is conventionally considered a deficit.
  • stevencloser
    stevencloser Posts: 8,911 Member
    Bump
    Why.
  • gossipkween
    gossipkween Posts: 35 Member
    bumping for later!
  • mrsBrown1989
    mrsBrown1989 Posts: 81
    Ummmmm what in the *kitten*!

    I have been on a calorie deficit for 2 months (lost like 15 lbs or so) and been lifting weights and My arms have WAY more muscle and my legs too. My butt is getting toned up also.

    When I used to flex my arms there was nothing there, now I actually have muscle. Its awesome.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Ummmmm what in the *kitten*!

    I have been on a calorie deficit for 2 months (lost like 15 lbs or so) and been lifting weights and My arms have WAY more muscle and my legs too. My butt is getting toned up also.

    When I used to flex my arms there was nothing there, now I actually have muscle. Its awesome.

    How long have you been lifting for?
  • RaggedyPond
    RaggedyPond Posts: 1,487 Member
    indiana-jones-popcorn.gif
  • shapefitter
    shapefitter Posts: 900 Member
    If you're not sure www.fitnessfrog.com
  • richardhadidian
    richardhadidian Posts: 1 Member
    Actually an obese person in a deficit can definitely build muscle , because a deficit to maintain a bunch of fat is different then a deficit to maintain muscle which people never understand, you take a an obese person with minimal muscle and 100 pounds of fat, and say it takes 4000 calories to maintain that fat, well it might take 2500 calories to build muscle on his frame under that fat, and still oxidize fat, my obese friend lost 110 pounds and gained a ton of muscle in the process and the excuse oh it was just hidden is not viable here, he ended up at 10 percent body fat at 180 pounds 5 foot 8 , so yes you can build muscle in a deficit if your largely over weight with minimal muscle, to say an obese guy to build muscle has to eat the 4000 calories hes used to in order to create protein synthesis is just flat out wrong. now for a bodybuilder whos looking to add more muscle yes he has to be in a surplus but for someone just starting out and overweight theres a muscle maintenance and a fat maintenance

    Thank you because that is my case right now. I started out at 32% BF (213lbs and 5'8") and I've been on a caloric deficit since I started to workout (10 weeks ago) My bench press went from 95lbs 4 sets of 10 to 155lbs 4 sets of 10 (Now I'm 195lbs and I'm not really sure of my BF%, probably around 27%).

    My progress has slowed down quite a bit and now I am only losing weight. I think there is a threshold of BF% in which you can't keep building muscle (or getting stronger which is different) and losing fat at the same time. All this time I have been around 750-1000 caloric deficit. What I may do is make the deficit smaller to slow down the weight loss and keep gaining a bit more of strength, because I've been stuck for the last 3 weeks. Or I may just maintain that deficit and keep the same strength so that I reach my fat loss faster.
  • yogicarl
    yogicarl Posts: 1,260 Member
    Going back to the original post, one thing comes to mind - why does it matter whether you can or cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit?
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Going back to the original post, one thing comes to mind - why does it matter whether you can or cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit?

    I'm betting it's because it's thrown out as an excuse as to why someone hasn't lost weight for weeks on end.

    "oh, you're probably gaining muscle, which weighs more than fat, and burns a lot of calories daily, so don't worry about it" (tried to hit all 3 myths there, only 1 part is true - don't worry)

    So the amount of muscle those in the right place could gain, should never be able to mask fat loss if you have a decent deficit.
    1 lb gain in 6-8 weeks just ain't enough.
    But it's usually someone eating 1200 and wondering why they aren't losing anymore that is given the above statement to help them feel better.

    Never mind the majority of the time no comment is even made about exercise being done - could be walking, which huh, ya, no meaningful weight from it is added as muscle.
  • DavPul
    DavPul Posts: 61,406 Member
    Going back to the original post, one thing comes to mind - why does it matter whether you can or cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit?

    Because many women on this site fear getting SUPAH bulky man muscles while eating 1200 calories per day
  • cliffhanger486
    cliffhanger486 Posts: 1 Member
    Starvation mode is an absolute myth and has been scientifically debunked. I'm at around 1200 calories and in the gym 6 days a week and I'm killing it. Keep it up.
  • trigden1991
    trigden1991 Posts: 4,658 Member
    cliffhanger486 wrote: »
    Starvation mode is an absolute myth and has been scientifically debunked. I'm at around 1200 calories and in the gym 6 days a week and I'm killing it. Keep it up.

    Strong thread revival.
  • ARGriffy
    ARGriffy Posts: 1,002 Member
    GetSoda wrote: »
    What does it actually mean. Are you guys litrally suggesting you cant increase muscle while on a calorie defecit..

    Yes. Litrally.
    and if so are you suggesting there is then no point lifting weights while on a calorie defecit?

    Not at all. You can still get stronger, and preserve more lean mass, and end up a healthier person.

    I'd like to weigh in. The muscles you already have can change and get stronger whilst on a deficit. As a lady, I'm not fussed about the "gainz" as such. As a pole dancer I want my muscles to be as strong as possible. My arms and shoulders look like they are getting bigger but nope, ive just cut some fat around them. They look "bigger" Because they are more defined. My waist is getting smaller as my abs look bigger. Make sense? I'm not getting larger, but I sure as hell getting stronger! I wouldn't very able to do the moves now I couldn't a few months ago otherwise. And I do not eat in a surplus.at all.

    The point im making is you don't need to "build muscle " to make your body look more defined or to feel progress in your strength and abilities :)
  • MelanieCN77
    MelanieCN77 Posts: 4,047 Member
    carolmcgov wrote: »
    If I listened to some people on the forums I shouldn't have reached my goal weight either because my body should have "clung" on to all my fat due to "starvation mode"

    I can't think of one single time someone has said the words "starvation mode" on here and not got corrected.
  • robs_ready
    robs_ready Posts: 1,488 Member
    carolmcgov wrote: »
    This is one of many things I have heard on the forums, is there something I'm not getting about this statement, for example maybe you can't get "bulky" lifting weights on a calorie deficit? What does it actually mean. Are you guys litrally suggesting you cant increase muscle while on a calorie defecit and if so are you suggesting there is then no point lifting weights while on a calorie defecit?
    Im pretty sure that is muscle in my photo there but it mustn't be because I've been eating at 1200 calories. If I listened to some people on the forums I shouldn't have reached my goal weight either because my body should have "clung" on to all my fat due to "starvation mode"
    Also I'm not hear to suggest anyone eats at 1200, it suited me as I was at a healthy BMI to begin with. Im not suggesting its for everyone!

    Putting on muscle in a deficit is possible... To begin with. Once your body adopts and your muscles near their elasticity potential, putting on muscle in a deficit is borderline impossible.
  • Tacklewasher
    Tacklewasher Posts: 7,122 Member
    Holy necrothread
  • CrabbyCancerMama
    CrabbyCancerMama Posts: 95 Member
    idk anything for sure as I'm not a trainer or anything but for me I have definitely built muscle even though I've lost 87lbs. No I do not feel it was my existing muscle under all the fat. it's definitely something I've created through weights and diet. I eat high protein low carb diet. Just my personal experience
  • Cylphin60
    Cylphin60 Posts: 863 Member
    StacyOglesbee wrote: »
    idk anything for sure as I'm not a trainer or anything but for me I have definitely built muscle even though I've lost 87lbs. No I do not feel it was my existing muscle under all the fat. it's definitely something I've created through weights and diet. I eat high protein low carb diet. Just my personal experience

    I'm only stating this for sake of discussion, not to argue or try to correct. :) I get the feeling that some folks conflate "building" muscle with strengthening existing muscle. I'll use my wife as an example:

    5' tall, no definition at all, none, as of about 8 weeks ago. 53 years old and has never weight lifted ever. She's also lost about 25 lbs over the last 3 months, but since she has started strength training 8 weeks ago, some small definition has begun to show in her arms, and a good bit more in her legs.
    I think the argument can be made that she is strengthening and firming up existing muscle (+small newbie gains) as opposed to building muscle, as she's on a 3-400 calorie deficit at the moment.

    I mean, there was zero appearance of muscle in her arms before, but that doesn't mean there was no muscle. If there were no muscle, how would she move?

    Like I said, just for discussions sake....
  • eagle_74
    eagle_74 Posts: 13 Member
    BodyBuilders "appear" more muscular after a cut, it's an illusion from the deepening curves and slopes that get revealed from less Fat AND Water. That is not New Muscle.

    If you want to build New Muscle Mass you need to be in an Anabolic state...stuffing your face will do that, rather than shuttling those nutrients into solely fat...Heavy lifting will shuttle those nutrients into building new muscle tissue, the % going towards Fat vs Muscle is partly genetic.

    Calorie Deficits put you in a Catabolic state..that doesn't mean you can't "appear" to getting more muscular or that you can't get stronger..you can especially if you have recently started lifting and have lots of room neuromuscular adaptions.
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