Deadlift and Overhead Press - Some Lessons Learned

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  • darreneatschicken
    darreneatschicken Posts: 669 Member
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    UPDATE:

    I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.

    So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?
  • Kimbie500
    Kimbie500 Posts: 388 Member
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    bump!
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    has little to do with height and more to do with the floor- or rather what type of floor they have- I don't use them- only when I'm dropping it from cleans. Just less noise and less likely to wack the floor (my weights are significantly lower at that point so they do get dropped a bit more)

    I never lift in long pants- that's just silly. Only fitted capris.

    I don't understand... so do you use a mat or not when you dl?

    and how does it depend on the floor? could you explain more?


    There is no need to use mats when DL, you shouldn't be bouncing the weights off the floor anyways, like I see most people doing. You rest a split second and reset, before your next rep on DL. That's why it's called a deadlift.

    Doing power cleans and that stuff, the weight usually gets dropped from a higher point, therefor, mats are usually used.

    As far as the issue with the shins. I always DL in pants, but, then again I always train with paints/sweatshirt/hoodies.

    that.

    sorry totally missed it- but that.
  • Lofteren
    Lofteren Posts: 960 Member
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    Wow..... There is a lot of really, really bad info going around in this thread. Everyone stop, go on youtube and watch the "So you think you can bench" series and the "so you think you can deadlift" series and learn the real way to do these lifts. Even the things OP was told by a trainer weren't correct. Remember, a trainer isn't necessarily a good lifting coach but a successful lifter is.
  • steve0820
    steve0820 Posts: 510 Member
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    UPDATE:

    I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.

    So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?

    Yup, threat it as a push rather then pull. Think of holding the bar as leverage so you can push the floor away from you. As far as grip, you to white knuckle it (grip hard), and also to "pull the slack" out of the bar. As your pushing, you want to drive your hips through the bar
  • steve0820
    steve0820 Posts: 510 Member
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    Wow..... There is a lot of really, really bad info going around in this thread. Everyone stop, go on youtube and watch the "So you think you can bench" series and the "so you think you can deadlift" series and learn the real way to do these lifts. Even the things OP was told by a trainer weren't correct. Remember, a trainer isn't necessarily a good lifting coach but a successful lifter is.

    Yup I agree, great series!
  • darreneatschicken
    darreneatschicken Posts: 669 Member
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    UPDATE:

    I still feel like I am not deadlifting right. Today, I figured out a major reason why: because I am treating DL as a pulling, not a pushing motion. Someone on this topic mentioned DL is a pushing motion; I never really understood what that meant until today. First of all, I am doing way too heavy weight (25lbs on each side). Because I cannot push this weight up with my heels, my body is forced to pull the bar upwards using my hands and back instead. This causes back strain and does not work my legs at all.

    So next time I attempt DL, I am going to put 10 lbs on each side, stack 4 plates on top of each other so that I can rest the bar in-between sets, flex my glutes and legs as usual, and push from my heels (WITHOUT PULLING WITH MY HANDS). People say that you should grip the bar hard, but as a beginner trying to learn this exercise, would it be okay to just lightly hold, not grip the bar, as to make it impossible to pull the bar up with my hands?

    Yup, threat it as a push rather then pull. Think of holding the bar as leverage so you can push the floor away from you. As far as grip, you to white knuckle it (grip hard), and also to "pull the slack" out of the bar. As your pushing, you want to drive your hips through the bar

    Do you think it is a good idea to just lightly hold the bar, so that it is impossible to pull it upwards? This way, I can force myself to DL only by pushing through my heels and hips.
  • tigersword
    tigersword Posts: 8,059 Member
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    No. Grip the bar tightly, like you're trying to rip the bar in half. You should be lifting the bar with your legs and hips.
  • steve0820
    steve0820 Posts: 510 Member
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    No. Grip the bar tightly, like you're trying to rip the bar in half. You should be lifting the bar with your legs and hips.


    Yes, grip the bar tightly. White knuckle it. You don't want that bar going anywhere. This is why most people switch to mix grip when loads start getting heavy, you don't want that bar to slip.
  • Kirk_R
    Kirk_R Posts: 112 Member
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    I was advised specifically NOT to grip the bar tightly by a world class lifter. He said the bar should hang in your hand with your fingers like a hook. This has been my approach and has worked for me through a 600 lb deadlift even with my tiny hands. I don't squeeze the bar. I would say find what works for you.
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
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    I was advised specifically NOT to grip the bar tightly by a world class lifter. He said the bar should hang in your hand with your fingers like a hook. This has been my approach and has worked for me through a 600 lb deadlift even with my tiny hands. I don't squeeze the bar. I would say find what works for you.

    I agree. Your hands/fingers are just hooks.
  • darreneatschicken
    darreneatschicken Posts: 669 Member
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    omg. conflicting advice. again.

    if your fingers are just like hooks, I can see how that would be good for learning how to push from your hips and glutes, but how are you supposed to hold a heavy weight?
  • darreneatschicken
    darreneatschicken Posts: 669 Member
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    UPDATE:

    Had my first personal training session today :)

    We were working on deadlifting, but in reality, we didn't do much actual deadlifting.

    First, we nailed down the fact that I have been using my back to lift the weight this entire time. Not a surprise to me at all. He said that I have programmed my body to use my back, and now we must reprogram and reverse my body.

    Deadlift is an exercise where the main muscles being worked are the hamstrings (part behind your thigh), and your glutes (*kitten*). Squats use more of your quads (front of your thigh).

    Now the main problem:

    MY BODY DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO USE IT'S GLUTES

    THIS HAS BEEN THE PROBLEM THE ENTIRE TIME

    EVERYTIME I DL, I AM PULLING WITH MY BACK, AND MY BACK ONLY

    We spent a long time doing exercises where he tried to get my body to activate my glutes.

    I have to admit this was very difficult, as I have never ever used my glutes before! Therefore, I had no idea how to do it, or how it should feel!

    This is why I recommend every newbie to get a personal trainer: everyone has their own unique weakness. Mine is not knowing how to activate my glutes. You can spend hours and hours watching youtube videos and reading articles (which is what I did) and still end up doing the exercise wrong (which is what I did)! The thing is: if you're a newbie, you have no idea what the exercise is supposed to feel like, therefore, how are you supposed to know how to do the exercise?

    Anyways, I'm going to list the exercises we were doing to help me "deactivate" my back and activate my glutes; get a feel for them.

    First, my trainer had me lay facing down on a mat. He then had me raise one leg USING MY GLUTES AND NOT MY BACK. Obviously, I struggled tremendously to do this. I couldn't help but use my back.

    Next exercise was the hip thrust. Now, I struggled with this exercise at first as well, but by the end of the session, I was beginning to use more of my hamstrings and glutes. Pretty much what this exercise is, is you lay facing up with knees up and brought close to your body. Now the vital part: push from your heels (NOT YOUR BACK GODDAMNIT), and raise your upper body up. I could not get this the first few times, so the trainer had me lift my toes up and slant my feet away from my body so that I would only be able to push from my heels. This helped a lot, and as a result, I really got a feel for the movement.

    We also worked on breathing. He had me place one hand on my chest, and one hand on my belly, and told me that the hand on my chest cannot move as I breath. I was like: "wtf?" how do I breath then? "Breath from your belly," he said. "Make yourself fat." This took some time, but eventually, I got it. I can do it now. As I sit typing this, my belly is moving in and out, in and out. The key to this is to take deep breaths, concentrating deeply on inhaling and exhaling. At first, I could only use my belly to exhale, then, after more practice, I could also inhale with it. But before all this, I was freaking out: "like omg! how do I "deactivate my chest and breath without it?" I dunno how, but after like 5 minutes of constant breathing I eventually got this "belly breathing down."

    Good mornings: take a light wooden stick, treat it as an Olympic barbell, and get into position as if you are about to squat. Instead of squatting, push back with your *kitten* without bending knees. As a result, you will slowly bend forward, getting a good stretch in your hammies. This is what the descending part of DL should feel like.

    So after all this "going crazy," we got to go back to the bar to practice actual deadlifting. Here are the DL steps (from what I learned today):

    1. Bar over middle of foot

    2. Bend over and grip the bar HARD (you will see why in a sec)

    3. Suck your belly in towards the bar, move your hips towards the bar. Doing all this will cause your back to be straight. Essentially, you want to force your lower back towards the bar, as to make it straight (and not rounded). You also want to pull back and drop your shoulders.

    Number 3 is the hardest step. Not because it is hard to achieve, but because achieving this position will make your entire body TENSE. Seriously, my trainer told me to hold this position while he took a picture of my back, and I was in so much pain! Not bad pain of course, but good pain :)

    All in all, it takes a lot of effort to achieve a straight back! If your entire body is not tense and hurting before you start the lift, you are not setting up correctly!

    4. FLEX YOUR LEGS A LOT. Then proceed to push from your heels, through your hips like you're falling back, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY RAISING THE BAR WITH YOUR ARMS.

    Now this is why you have a hard grip on the bar. Before today, I thought that you shouldn't be using your arms to lift the bar, but I realized that if I only use my lower body to lift the bar, IT SIMPLY WON'T HAPPEN. For example, I tried pushing just the bar (45 lbs) upwards using my lower body only, without using my arms to assist, and I couldn't do it. This made me realize that your arms must assist your lower body to get the bar up.

    Also, my trainer told me not to think about it as using my arms. He said that it is your lats that are activated. Your arms have little involvement in the lift. I just said "arms" because that's what it looks like / feels like. But the trainer felt my lats during this movement, and he said that they were activated (good)!

    This is also why it is so important to flex your legs. Without doing so, you aren't activating your glutes and hamstrings, and thus, are only pulling with your arms and back.
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
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    glutes come into play as you are locking out the lift, once the bar is past your knees. If you drive your hips towards the bar when it's at that point, that'll activate your glutes.

    I don't agree about taking a death grip on the bar. Your hands are simply hooks connected to your arms for this lift.

    I'm also going to disagree about squats being more of a quad exercise. Done properly they hit your glutes and hams as good as deads do.
  • JoRocka
    JoRocka Posts: 17,525 Member
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    nice update- there are some question marks in there for me- but over all the cues and work seems to be pretty spot on. Glad to know you learned how to use your glutes- that good morning (that leaning forward/*kitten* out thing) is a really great stretch/engagement tool)

    Good job.
    I was advised specifically NOT to grip the bar tightly by a world class lifter. He said the bar should hang in your hand with your fingers like a hook. This has been my approach and has worked for me through a 600 lb deadlift even with my tiny hands. I don't squeeze the bar. I would say find what works for you.

    I agree. Your hands/fingers are just hooks.

    yes- but you cannot hold a heavy with with just a hooked finger- you have to actually be holding the bar- but you aren't PULLING with your hands/arms.

    I always explain that your arms are like straps on a crane- they do nothing but HOLD the weight as a method to help move- the engine/crane have nothing to do with what's holding it.
  • juliewatkin
    juliewatkin Posts: 764 Member
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    For overhead press I think you're better off experimenting with grip and finding the strongest position for yourself.

    For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
    It's an individual thing for sure. I pull with my shoulders rounded down (not pulled back) as it lengthens your arms and shortens your stroke. Where that will bite you in the butt is lock out.
  • danimalkeys
    danimalkeys Posts: 982 Member
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    For overhead press I think you're better off experimenting with grip and finding the strongest position for yourself.

    For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
    It's an individual thing for sure. I pull with my shoulders rounded down (not pulled back) as it lengthens your arms and shortens your stroke. Where that will bite you in the butt is lock out.

    That's how I do it too.
  • Kirk_R
    Kirk_R Posts: 112 Member
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    It's an individual thing for sure. I pull with my shoulders rounded down (not pulled back) as it lengthens your arms and shortens your stroke. Where that will bite you in the butt is lock out.

    Check out Konstantin Konstantinov's vids to see this approach from one of the best recent DLers..
  • juliewatkin
    juliewatkin Posts: 764 Member
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    It's an individual thing for sure. I pull with my shoulders rounded down (not pulled back) as it lengthens your arms and shortens your stroke. Where that will bite you in the butt is lock out.

    Check out Konstantin Konstantinov's vids to see this approach from one of the best recent DLers..

    He is a beast for sure. Most of the best deadlifters I've seen have deliberately rolled their shoulders down to their advantage.