Everything in moderation
Replies
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Speaking from the point of a newbie, I eat everything and anything I want - I have FORCED myself to have willpower and self-control.
But from reading this thread, I see that not everyone can do that.
Personally, if I told myself 24 days ago that there was forbidden foods that I couldn't eat until I lost 150 pounds, I would have fallen off the wagon already.
Food is delicious. I love it. That's how I got to almost 300 pounds, but I need to get to a healthy weight while still loving food
But that's just me! To each their own.0 -
I would do so too, but I track my waist rather than my weight.
Better enable my ticker, then :P.I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.
Since I'm already in:
starting waist : 35 in (on a good day)
current waist: 31 in (30.5, actually)
goal waist: 30 inDrink in moderation (if you aren't an alcoholic)
Smoke dope in moderation (if its legal where you live)
Play video games in moderation
Lol dude!
Literally! 0 -
Will power can come in many different forms.
I use my will power not to buy those Peanut Butter M&Ms...I love those things...not the little bitty bags...but those huge giant sized bags. I especially love them when they are on sale...even better when they are buy 1...get 1 free. That's when I used to have no will power...I could justify buying those Peanut Butter M&Ms...they were after all...a really good deal.
I struggled for a while not buying them...then I used my will power to be able to walk on by them at the store.
Could I buy them and have just 1 Peanut Butter M&M...possibly...but...I choose not to...will power.
Maybe one day...I will let those cute little guys back in to my life...maybe not. I don't think that they are evil...nor are they "bad"...I just don't need them any more.
Maybe one day...a Halloween...you'll have a bag and they will be SOOOO good. And you will know that you don't have to have them, but you like them. So, every few months or so, you'll pick up a bag when you are getting gas. That will also be moderation.0 -
bump for later0
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All of that sounds lovely and I wish I were able to do it...
There are certain things I just cannot have in my house, ice cream being one of them. I bought frozen yogurt this week and the gallon was gone in 4 days.
Some people are seemingly unable to control themselves when it comes to certain "trigger foods". In theory everything in moderation sounds fabulous, but in practice it's not always best for everyone.
You wouldn't tell an alcoholic to enjoy a couple beers in moderation, would you? I'd hope not...
Rubbish. Alcohol is a drug, an addictive substance, food is not.
Anyone can eat in moderation if you physically serve yourself reasonable portions of food.
Comments like this really irritate me. People with an alcohol addiction, or a drug addiction, receive sympathy and help. People that have an eating disorder such an anorexia or bulimia, receive sympathy and help. Turn that eating disorder round though, and make it someone that has a binge eating disorder, and suddenly that person doesn't deserve sympathy and help. In too many cases, they are just labelled as greedy or lacking self-control.
As someone that suffers from binge eating, I can't have certain foods in the house. Sometimes the whole 'eat it in moderation' thing works, but sometimes it doesn't. And if I do have a bit of an emotional munch, having the stuff readily available in the house is not good. Having to physically drive to the supermarket to buy things for my binge gives me a chance to put that in perspective.
To the OP; demonizing food on this forum is a problem, but so is the 'this is what works for me and so you should all do it' approach that so many here seem to have. You included.
If food weren't an issue, groups like Overeater's Anonymous wouldn't exist. Binge Eating Disorder is an actual eating disorder and it's in the DSM and probably the ICD. It's a real issue and I understand why you are offended.
I've had eating disorders from anorexia, to bulimia to overeating. I know what you're talking about and I can see that the ignorance on the topic can be infuriating.
However, some people just aren't educated on the matter, and that isn't their fault. Some people don't believe any mental illness exists; those people are also infuriating, but there is no arguing with them.
I can't keep problem foods around either. If I become depressed, the only thing that makes me happy is food and no, I DON'T have control over it. I also have recurring episodes of depression so it's an issue.
So I understand "no moderation" on certain foods. I do that as well! I don't know if I'll ever eat french fries again. If that's what it takes to keep me at a healthy weight, that's what I'll do!
I'm glad it works for some people! That's fantastic. But there literally are people that CAN NOT do this without going overboard. If they could, they wouldn't have a diagnosable mental illness.
/rant.
Rubbish. Next you will be saying 'lack of willpower' is some form of disorder or disease. It isnt, by the way. Binge eating disorder in the way that people excuse themselves for is not a medical term. It is a cosy excuse for why they are so overweight - 'not my fault. I have a disorder'. The regular person does not have a disorder.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/binge-eating-disorder/basics/definition/con-20033155
I think that disordered eating is WAY more prevalent than we realize because it's been normalized. Half the articles about dieting in popular women's magazines promote disordered eating.0 -
This doesn't really make sense. I mean for the most part the people on here know that you can eat everything in moderation, and still hit your goals, but this is a different point. There are just some foods out there that if people have it they will eat a lot of it! So trying to eat that food in a smaller portion just isn't going to work.0
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In.
Just in.
ETA: There's usually an interesting correlation between ticker marker and which side of this argument people are on. Will be interesting to see if this thread follows the same pattern.
I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.
I think there's a bit of a confound here. MFP supports a particular type of diet. There are people who are successful with MFP that still struggle with it more than others. The people who this doesn't work for don't lose weight and leave sooner than later.
So, basic attrition will leave you with long term successful residents whose needs are well supported by the site.
It's kind of like running. More people COULD run for 30 minutes than believe they can. But there are still some people who just can't. And that doesn't make them wrong. It's just variability.
There are people on this website who won't allow themselves to eat anything they enjoy because they are worried that it will cause them to over eat. There are people who demonize food. There are people who are cleansing themselves of toxinz. All of these people probably would be better served by moderation.
A lot of the people responding to this thread are practicing moderation through environmental control.
There are some instances of people who aren't satisfied by a "serving" and have to eliminate. And that's not wrong, but it's a lot rarer.0 -
Better enable my ticker, then :P.
I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.
Yeah, my post-bulk cut ticker is misleading.
Oh well.
ETA: Hmm, guess I'm closer to the next goal than I thought I was. Nothing to see here. Move along.0 -
Moderation kills.0
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I have to totally agree with tennisdude2004's post:
"What may be addictive to one person may not be to another. Hence why most of the population can function normally whilst including alcohol into their lives and others cannot.
Seems a bit strange that we cannot accept that food can be addictive."
There is lots of research on food addiction from reputable sources on the internet that addresses just this issue. Some people are able to keep a pint of vodka, for example, in their liquor cabinet and are able to have a drink or two periodically and not consume the entire bottle in one sitting just as some people are able to have a bag of Reese's peanut butter cups in their pantry and only consume one and not feel compelled to eat the entire bag in one sitting. Personally (and this is just my opinion), both of these things equate to an addiction.
Food is not addictive. We are born and start consuming food. We are educated in various ways by parents, schools and others and are given habits about eating. A baby boy is not born hooked on the food he/she eats. It just becomes a habit which varies between people to other extremes
Drugs on the other hand are addictive. People are not born with a drug/tobacco addiction, just like they arent born with a food addiction. However, they try tobacco for the first time and they can be addicted because of the substance. Sugar for example isnt addictive. People dont eat bags of plain sugar to satisfy their 'addiction'. They eat other sugary foods simply because they have bad habits and they tell their own self they need more.
This is boring (why can't people look for the research themselves? and why do people feel so threatened by the idea of hyper-palatable food activating addiction mechanisms? Dopamine is a big part of addiction and no-one denies that palatable food has a dopamine response) but here are some studies for you (are actually there any counter-studies out there that show that people cannot possibly have an addictive response to palatable food, or is it just a knee-jerk reaction?):
Neural correlates of food addiction: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21464344
Weight gain is associated with reduced striatal response to palatable food.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881128
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/2/367.short - "The hypothesis that food has evolved from a necessity and a boring staple to an object of desire and a substance of abuse has been debated for decades (1). However, over the past 10 y, empirical studies have revealed overlaps between maladaptive food intake patterns, which are sometimes seen in obesity, and drug addiction (2). As a result, “addiction” to palatable food has been suggested, with neurochemical and behavioral similarities seen in both human studies and in animal models (2, 3). In laboratory animals, signs of opiate-like withdrawal can be seen after administration of naloxone in cases in which the animals have a history of chronic overconsumption of sucrose. Furthermore, cross-tolerance and sensitization have been reported between alcohol, amphetamine, or cocaine and the overconsumption of sucrose. With these behaviors are concomitant changes in the mesolimbic dopamine and opioid systems that are consistent with the effects seen in response to most drugs of abuse, although the animals are dependent on a palatable food. Human studies have been conducted using psychometric tools to characterize food addiction (the Yale Food Addiction Scale) (4), with the findings suggesting increased neural activation in reward-related brain regions as a correlate of food addiction score (3). Other work has linked obesity with neural indications of addiction (5). Collectively, on the basis of these and other complementary data it is plausible that an addictive response to palatable food may, in part, promote increased food intake that can sometimes lead to obesity."
Overlapping Neuronal Circuits in Addiction and Obesity: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/25/1_MeetingAbstracts/71.2
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51722471_The_addiction_potential_of_hyperpalatable_foods0 -
Moderation kills.
Extremism kills more.0 -
I have to totally agree with tennisdude2004's post:
"What may be addictive to one person may not be to another. Hence why most of the population can function normally whilst including alcohol into their lives and others cannot.
Seems a bit strange that we cannot accept that food can be addictive."
There is lots of research on food addiction from reputable sources on the internet that addresses just this issue. Some people are able to keep a pint of vodka, for example, in their liquor cabinet and are able to have a drink or two periodically and not consume the entire bottle in one sitting just as some people are able to have a bag of Reese's peanut butter cups in their pantry and only consume one and not feel compelled to eat the entire bag in one sitting. Personally (and this is just my opinion), both of these things equate to an addiction.
Food is not addictive. We are born and start consuming food. We are educated in various ways by parents, schools and others and are given habits about eating. A baby boy is not born hooked on the food he/she eats. It just becomes a habit which varies between people to other extremes
Drugs on the other hand are addictive. People are not born with a drug/tobacco addiction, just like they arent born with a food addiction. However, they try tobacco for the first time and they can be addicted because of the substance. Sugar for example isnt addictive. People dont eat bags of plain sugar to satisfy their 'addiction'. They eat other sugary foods simply because they have bad habits and they tell their own self they need more.
This is boring (why can't people look for the research themselves? and why do people feel so threatened by the idea of hyper-palatable food activating addiction mechanisms? Dopamine is a big part of addiction and no-one denies that palatable food has a dopamine response) but here are some studies for you (are actually there any counter-studies out there that show that people cannot possibly have an addictive response to palatable food, or is it just a knee-jerk reaction?):
Neural correlates of food addiction: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21464344
Weight gain is associated with reduced striatal response to palatable food.: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20881128
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/94/2/367.short - "The hypothesis that food has evolved from a necessity and a boring staple to an object of desire and a substance of abuse has been debated for decades (1). However, over the past 10 y, empirical studies have revealed overlaps between maladaptive food intake patterns, which are sometimes seen in obesity, and drug addiction (2). As a result, “addiction” to palatable food has been suggested, with neurochemical and behavioral similarities seen in both human studies and in animal models (2, 3). In laboratory animals, signs of opiate-like withdrawal can be seen after administration of naloxone in cases in which the animals have a history of chronic overconsumption of sucrose. Furthermore, cross-tolerance and sensitization have been reported between alcohol, amphetamine, or cocaine and the overconsumption of sucrose. With these behaviors are concomitant changes in the mesolimbic dopamine and opioid systems that are consistent with the effects seen in response to most drugs of abuse, although the animals are dependent on a palatable food. Human studies have been conducted using psychometric tools to characterize food addiction (the Yale Food Addiction Scale) (4), with the findings suggesting increased neural activation in reward-related brain regions as a correlate of food addiction score (3). Other work has linked obesity with neural indications of addiction (5). Collectively, on the basis of these and other complementary data it is plausible that an addictive response to palatable food may, in part, promote increased food intake that can sometimes lead to obesity."
Overlapping Neuronal Circuits in Addiction and Obesity: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/25/1_MeetingAbstracts/71.2
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51722471_The_addiction_potential_of_hyperpalatable_foods
Because a WHOLE LOT of things excite a dopamine response. Orienting organisms toward specific simuli is what dopamine is FOR.
Also, a WHOLE LOT of things excite an endorphine response. Providing the payoff for the dopamine drive is what endorphins are for.
It's like cortisol. Yeah. It's a stress hormone. It also has a number of other functions. Mistaking one of its other functions for a stress response would be a mistake.0 -
Moderation kills the feeling of deprivation.
FIFY.0 -
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Because a WHOLE LOT of things excite a dopamine response. Orienting organisms toward specific simuli is what dopamine is FOR.
Also, a WHOLE LOT of things excite an endorphine response. Providing the payoff for the dopamine drive is what endorphins are for.
It's like cortisol. Yeah. It's a stress hormone. It also has a number of other functions. Mistaking one of its other functions for a stress response would be a mistake.
I think your cortisol example is looking at it backwards - i.e. if an event resulted in a sudden rise in cortisol levels, yes, I would say that was a stress response to that event. The other functions are not causing the raised cortisol, so are not particularly relevant. Also not really sure how this relates to dopamine response and its role in addictive behaviours.
Are you saying that dopamine is irrelevant in drug addiction? Because my point is that if you agree that dopamine plays a role in addictions, and that certain foods can trigger dopamine responses and changes in the system that mimic those seen in drug addictions, it is at least a POSSIBILITY that the addiction model is applicable to hyper-palatable foods in some people, based on the scientific evidence available. I am unable to find any conclusive evidence that this is not the case, and have only seen counter-arguments based on what people think as opposed to actual evidence-based studies. I am open to discussion on it.0 -
Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)
I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.
I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.0 -
Me too Me too!!!:blushing: :laugh: :bigsmile:0 -
If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.
Why?
Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.
This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D
Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.
All of that is total Bull****!
Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
Relax and live!
This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)
Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza
Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)
YUMMLY
I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol
Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds0 -
Why cant we have both?0 -
Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)
I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.
I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.
I agree in not restricting trigger foods for kids, although some kids are better at understanding moderation than others (sadly I have the latter).
I find that if we go out and my 5 year old over-eats sugary things we have to make him run behind the car on the way home just to get him to burn off the sugar.
We're not mean about it though, we never go beyond a mile radius from home.0 -
If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.
Why?
Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.
This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D
Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.
All of that is total Bull****!
Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
Relax and live!
This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)
Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza
Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)
YUMMLY
I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol
Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds
Because:
0 -
In.
Just in.
ETA: There's usually an interesting correlation between ticker marker and which side of this argument people are on. Will be interesting to see if this thread follows the same pattern.
I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.
Hmmmm I am too busy to follow this whole convo so forgive me if I misunderstood
But my ticker says 3 pounds lost (I have lost 90 pounds overall, prior to mfp) I am in recomp mode and my BF % is my focus Are you saying that my pizzalove and my only 3 pounds lost ticker mean I am wrong? And go:0 -
When you're first starting out and trying to get into new habits, I understand wanting to seriously keep certain things away from you, but what you need to change is YOU not the foods. I have 4 kids and a spouse who don't need to be subjected to whatever eating restrictions I wanted to put on myself, and I'm a big person who leaves the house and is in contact with other people and foods and restaurants and grocery stores and all that stuff....
So I decided I wanted to be healthier more than I wanted to eat <whatever> in excess.
I decided I wanted to lose weight and exercise. So I did it.
I decided I could be around 'trigger' foods without binging. So I did it.
I decided I could eat whatever I wanted as long as it fit my calorie goals and nutrition needs. So I did it.
I decided I wasn't a victim to a 'food addiction' but an adult in control of my life. So I did it.
It's really that simple. It isn't EASY. But it's a simple concept, and you just have to get yourself in the right mental state to accept your own responsibility in the situation and do it. Some days it is more work than others. But the longer you do it, the more in control you get.
Make up your mind. Do it.0 -
Huh. I agree with the spirit of this (although I think it can be learned at any age)
I'm glad you posted this because I hope it will remind those parents who don't allow any "trigger" foods in their homes that they might be doing a disservice to their families by NOT teaching their children moderation.
I'd go so far as to add that when people put the blame on "big food corporation", they are setting an example of "how to play the victim" instead of "how to assume personal responsibility for your choices." IMO, society already has enough victims.
I agree in not restricting trigger foods for kids, although some kids are better at understanding moderation than others (sadly I have the latter).
I find that if we go out and my 5 year old over-eats sugary things we have to make him run behind the car on the way home just to get him to burn off the sugar.
We're not mean about it though, we never go beyond a mile radius from home.
You can't say, "hey 5 year old, put the second cupcake down. You've had your share"?
'Cause that lesson translates to teenage years when they start wanting big ticket items.0 -
If you know someone who says "I can't eat XYZ food because I cannot control myself when I eat it." They need to add this food to their week.
Why?
Because if you believe the 1 food you love so much is making you fat because you binge eat it, that's because you're trying to completely eliminate it. Eat the ****ing food and enjoy it in moderation! Fit it into your macros! The psychological anguish you have thinking about this food you love is far far worse than simply having a serving of it every few nights. Especially on lifting days.
This type of mentality should be used in just about everything you do!
Except of course the love you have for your family and friends! ;D
Seriously though.
All over this forum I see people demonizing food and activities.
Sugar causes diabetes so I cannot have any sugar at all.
Saturated fat causes heart disease so I cannot have saturated fat at all.
When I go bowling, I drink beer. I cannot bowl ever again.
Paleo is the only way to live.
Ketogenic diets are the only diets that work.
Strong Lifts 5x5 is the only way to lift weights.
Calisthenics rule and if you want to be lean, only do calisthenics.
All of that is total Bull****!
Do the things that make you happy in moderation!
If you restrict too much, you'll surely fail and binge on what you think is causing the issue.
If you don't try new things, you'll never know what really works and what doesn't.
Relax and live!
This is why I have a piece of chocolate every day (oh yes and sugar free whipped heavy cream as often as possible IIFYM)
Oh yes and pizza I always manage to fit in pizza
Life without pizza was not worth living (keto anyone)
YUMMLY
I'm doing quite well without pizza - it's just a matter or will power to start with (either you've got it or you haven't), after that once i weaned myself off them, I realised I was making a fuss about nothing. Lol
Hmmmmm why you would ever give up something that gives you pleasure, when you dont have to idk IIFYM (and we are duscussing MODERATION) mmmmmm pizza last week and still lost jiggle and 0.5 pounds
Because:
ahhhhh I forgot to tell you I am a heathen I have read the confession and a bit of confusius too Still love pizza0 -
Are you telling me that at the age of 6 he won't just get-it and not want things in excess - damn.
Kids are little sh*ts (mine is) the other day as a reward for a good day at school I bought him a kinder egg. The store had them on a 2 for 1 offer and he noticed the other one in the fridge. Obviously he wanted that one as well and the merry hell we went through for the next 10 minutes. Made me think that in life no good deed ever goes unpunished.
Tonight I am going to read him this thread on moderation as a bedtime story - hopefully it will sink in. lol0 -
Are you telling me that at the age of 6 he won't just get-it and not want things in excess - damn.
Kids are little sh*ts (mine is) the other day as a reward for a good day at school I bought him a kinder egg. The store had them on a 2 for 1 offer and he noticed the other one in the fridge. Obviously he wanted that one as well and the merry hell we went through for the next 10 minutes. Made me think that in life no good deed ever goes unpunished.
Tonight I am going to read him this thread on moderation as a bedtime story - hopefully it will sink in. lol
Read him this thread??!! Good grief! You couldn't think of a less Draconian punishment?!
ETA: please let the mrs. do the disciplining! :laugh:0 -
In.
Just in.
ETA: There's usually an interesting correlation between ticker marker and which side of this argument people are on. Will be interesting to see if this thread follows the same pattern.
I'm crunching numbers now.
Join dates too but that's in another chart.
Hmmmm I am too busy to follow this whole convo so forgive me if I misunderstood
But my ticker says 3 pounds lost (I have lost 90 pounds overall, prior to mfp) I am in recomp mode and my BF % is my focus Are you saying that my pizzalove and my only 3 pounds lost ticker mean I am wrong? And go:
There will always be outliers to the correlation. A couple of months ago, when I ended a bulk and started a cut, my ticker marker was on the other side too.
My point was just that on this subject, there is an interesting trend *in general* between the two sides of the argument and the ticker marker. This isn't a judgment of who is "right" and who is "wrong" either...but the correlation remains.
It's just something I've found interesting in my almost-3 years on MFP. Does it mean anything? Probably not...but it's still interesting.0 -
[/quote]
Because:
[/quote]
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Lol0
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