Athlean Bulking while Cutting

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Stoshew71
Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
hey guys. I came accross this youtube video. I am in no way promoting or criticizing what AthLean is preaching here.

I just wanted to get everyone's opinion. I am currently at maintenance as far as diet and I lift and I run a lot. I am training for a half marathon next Sunday. So trying to eat at a caloric surplus in order to gain muscle mass is a challange for me. This video is stating that you can actually eat at a caloric deficit, loose fat and still gain muscle mass by doing 3 things which keep you at "Positive Nitrogen Balance":

Strength Train (but not over train)
Get enough sleep
Get enough Protein (this guy suggests Cassein Protein Supplementation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3AG-oCXTE


Anyway, just wanted everyone's opinion so I can better change my routine in order to meet my goals. I would like to gain some muscle mass (therefore I eat about ~200 g of protein daily but to net 2280 or more daily calories with all the running I am doing is tough). it would be nice to know that I don't have to worry about eating at a caloric surplus just get enough protein and sleep along with my lifting to get that mass gain. I am not interested in bulking up really huge like competion level, just a little more lean muscle would be nice.

By the way, I am currently 6'2" and weight about 190 lbs (and 42 years old). Loosing fat is not that of a big deal, but gaining muscle with minimal fat gain is OK. I just have a hard time eating enough calories while I am running.


Also, I know many people will say to stop running and you will bulk. I am not ready to do that yet. Especially since there are plenty of people firmly believe that you can do heavy cardio and still bulk. Thoughts?

Thanks.
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Replies

  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
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    fkmuya.gif
    This video is stating that you can actually eat at a caloric deficit, loose fat and still gain muscle mass by doing 3 things which keep you at "Positive Nitrogen Balance":

    Strength Train (but not over train)
    Get enough sleep
    Get enough Protein (this guy suggests Cassein Protein Supplementation)

    This video is wrong
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
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    Nitrogen. It's an element. Atomic number 7. N. Science.
  • Stoshew71
    Stoshew71 Posts: 6,553 Member
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    This video is wrong

    How so please?
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    Well I'm confused!

    Bulking is adding mass, eating at a deficit is losing mass.
    What exactly are you trying to do? Sounds like you are talking about recomping but I'm not really sure.

    If that's what you are trying to do then lift heavy, eat adequate protein, get enough rest, eat enough calories to maintain your weight.
    And be patient.
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
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    This video is wrong

    How so please?

    Everybody on MFP who is remotely serious about weight lifting or any type of body building already does and has been doing all three of the things the video mentioned and NONE of them gained muscle mass on a deficit because the only instance where that can happen is if the person in question is severely obese. If you're anywhere near a healthy weight you cannot gain muscle mass on a calorie deficit, no matter how much sleep you get, or protein you eat, or lifting you do...
  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
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    This video is wrong

    How so please?

    Well, I think the better question is: Does he have evidence for anything he's presenting?

    My guess is if you take an overweight guy and provide hormonal assistance plus sleep, protein, lifting, that guy will probably recomp pretty well at a calorie deficit.

    But I'm not trying to sell something, so I'm not going to post my speculation as fact on youtube.
  • mortuseon
    mortuseon Posts: 579 Member
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    You need energy to build muscle (it's anabolic) - hence you NEED a surplus. There is such a thing as 'recomping' which is slowly losing fat and adding muscle but it takes a long, long time.
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
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    You need energy to build muscle (it's anabolic) - hence you NEED a surplus.

    2hwfjoh.gif
  • Edmond_Dantes
    Edmond_Dantes Posts: 185 Member
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    It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
    It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
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    It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
    It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

    Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
    It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

    Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?
    The Helms study (looking at protein intake) is interesting
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training

    But as usual it measures either LBM or FFM.

    You will notice that most of the believers that you need a surplus to gain muscle mass are those least likely to be able to achieve it (already lean, already at or near a training peak, already following a good lifting routine).
    It's not quite the same for beginners, those returning from injury, subject to a new training regime or have significant energy stores (fat!).
  • Chris_Pierce
    Chris_Pierce Posts: 267 Member
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    This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
    It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
    I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
    I've never heard of Athlean though.
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    Options
    It's a myth that you can't build muscle while losing fat. It has been debunked in multiple studies searchable on PubMed. To anyone who has really studied physiology, it also makes complete sense.
    It's harder to gain muscle mass while cutting weight but not impossible!

    Searched Pubmed and couldn't find anything. Can you provide a link?
    The Helms study (looking at protein intake) is interesting
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training

    But as usual it measures either LBM or FFM.

    You will notice that most of the believers that you need a surplus to gain muscle mass are those least likely to be able to achieve it (already lean, already at or near a training peak, already following a good lifting routine).
    It's not quite the same for beginners, those returning from injury, subject to a new training regime or have significant energy stores (fat!).


    From the study:
    Body fat percentage decreased (0.5% to 6.6%) in all study groups (N = 13) and FFM decreased (0.3 to 2.7kg) in nine of 13. Four groups gained or did not lose FFM. They had the highest body fat, smallest magnitudes of energy restriction or underwent novel resistance training stimuli.

    None of that is surprising. Interesting study but I'd still like to see these "multiple studies" that the other poster mentioned that "debunk" what has been scientifically proven over and over...
  • mortuseon
    mortuseon Posts: 579 Member
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    This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
    It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
    I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
    I've never heard of Athlean though.

    You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
    Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
    I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters :wink:
    sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'.
    Muscle doesn't actually use a lot of energy (about 6 cals a day per pound at rest).
    Agree with you about these "feelings" likely to be a response to starting a new routine though.

    Need to track measurements over weeks/months to confirm whether people are actually adding size. People often get confused by swelling and/or improved definition due to fat loss. If arms & legs get bigger over a long period of time while also losing weight then bingo!
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    Options
    This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
    It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
    I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
    I've never heard of Athlean though.

    You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
    Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
    I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters :wink:
    sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

    Yea this is right on. Lots of new lifters think they are gaining muscle on a calorie deficit when in reality they are increasing strength. It's very possible to increase strength without gaining muscle if you're new to lifting. The strength gains coupled with the water that your muscles draw in to repair themselves after they've been damaged from lifting can trick people into thinking they are increasing muscle mass when in reality they are actually losing muscle mass. The strength increases come from neuromuscular adaptation. You're not getting stronger because you have more muscle, you're getting stronger because you're increasing muscle fiber recruitment due to the weight lifting. You're activating muscle fibers during weight lifting that you don't normally use in every day life and as a result you see a large magnitude of strength increases in a relatively short period of time.
  • Chris_Pierce
    Chris_Pierce Posts: 267 Member
    Options
    This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
    It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
    I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
    I've never heard of Athlean though.

    You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
    Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
    I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters :wink:
    sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

    Dang, you're argument makes the sense too.
    I don't think that it's water in my muscles since I'm not new to lifting and I am losing weight. I'm lifting a little more then I have in the past, but that's just natural progression as I become stronger. The only thing I changed is that I'm doing cardio and eating a deficit. I still eat 2200-2400 calories a day and lots of protein.
    Anyway I don't mean to say that I'm putting on as much muscle as I would if I were over eating. That's just not going to happen.
  • Chris_Pierce
    Chris_Pierce Posts: 267 Member
    Options
    This is interesting to me because I'm currently doing a ton of cardio (1000-1200 calories a day) eating a deficit of around 1000 and weight training. I just started keeping track of all of this stuff, but last week I lost 2 pounds. My arms, chest and legs feel bigger to me so I seem to be building muscle while losing fat.
    It seems to me, with what little understanding I have of physiology, that if I am using more calories than I am taking in my stored fat will make up the difference. Why should that process keep me from building muscle? I have a fair amount of muscle, more than average anyway, and my body fat % is in the upper teens. My goal is to lose 10% of it in the next two months.
    I'll have to keep it up and see what happens. Either way I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because I want to at least keep the muscle that I have while losing fat.
    I've never heard of Athlean though.

    You could be experiencing muscle swelling (water) from the lifting, which makes your muscles feel 'tighter'.
    Or when people are new to lifting, it's far more possible to obtain muscle in a deficit than when one is an experienced lifter.
    I think it's to do with keeping your body in the fed state? I'm not certain about this but I think that anabolic processes like building muscle are really unlikely to occur if you're at a deficit. Because muscle is a metabolically demanding substance so it makes sense for your body to not want more of it when it perceives a lower availability of food. It wouldn't be very efficient to put on lots of muscle whilst losing fat because you'd be increasing the body's energy demands, which is not desirable when 'starving'. Although obviously it's desirable for dieters :wink:
    sorry if that didn't make much sense/if I'm talking nonsense. I'm just speculating based on what I already know.

    Yea this is right on. Lots of new lifters think they are gaining muscle on a calorie deficit when in reality they are increasing strength. It's very possible to increase strength without gaining muscle if you're new to lifting. The strength gains coupled with the water that your muscles draw in to repair themselves after they've been damaged from lifting can trick people into thinking they are increasing muscle mass when in reality they are actually losing muscle mass. The strength increases come from neuromuscular adaptation. You're not getting stronger because you have more muscle, you're getting stronger because you're increasing muscle fiber recruitment due to the weight lifting. You're activating muscle fibers during weight lifting that you don't normally use in every day life and as a result you see a large magnitude of strength increases in a relatively short period of time.

    The only problem is that I'm not new to lifting. Sorry :(
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
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    The only problem is that I'm not new to lifting. Sorry :(

    My bad haha
  • Chris_Pierce
    Chris_Pierce Posts: 267 Member
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    I've read in other older threads here on mfp that there is a small % folks who can add muscle while losing weight. Could it be that I am one of the lucky few?
    I'm going to do some more reading on this. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that everyone and their mothers are saying what is happening to me is impossible.

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