Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle

I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

Summary

In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.

And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs

Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg

Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....

So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.

Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis

I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.

While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).

BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.

Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.

Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.

There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.

The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.

As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)

That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:

The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.

Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.

The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.

There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.

As for the references showing muscle loss:

#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34

#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions

#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:

"Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"

While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims.

#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.

#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:

Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.

The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.

The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.

While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.

Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html

This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.

I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

Summary

In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.

And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs

Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg

Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....

So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.

Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis

That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.

Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.

if it was for people on regular diets then it isnt relevant

most people dont eat enough protein, not too much

if you want to be taken seriously you need to post links that arent blogs or youtube videos, try google scholar to find an actual published article

I mean I just came across this:
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

Summary

In sum, then, there is no evidence that we could find that consuming excess protein will increase glucose production from GNG. On the other hand, there is much suggestive evidence that it does not.

Further experiments need to be carried out to answer the question completely. In particular, we would like to see a comparison of the rate of GNG in keto-adapted dieters consuming no protein, adequate protein, or a large quantity of protein, with and without dietary fat.

And they seem to disagree with the premise that excess protein will be turned into glucose or carbs

Protein causes an insulin response almost equal to carbs. Insulin is release to get rid of sugar (glucose).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coUlGtAqmNg

Then there is no possible way anyone can ever be in ketosis.
If you ingest food, you will always have an insulin response.
Some fats will not trigger an insulin response, but other than those select few......all other things will result the same thing.....

So you can't have your cake and eat it too on this one mate.

Because by your logic, and what you believe to be true, then no one can ever be in ketosis

That was for people who usually eat normally (i.e. they do not have the capability to use large amounts of fat as a direct energy source) . When you are carb depleted and running mainly on fat, things are different.

Edit: Your body will first take the protein it needs for its muscles and other functions when keto-adapted. A regular person on a standard diet already eats way too much protein, that's why they induce this response.

if it was for people on regular diets then it isnt relevant

most people dont eat enough protein, not too much

if you want to be taken seriously you need to post links that arent blogs or youtube videos, try google scholar to find an actual published article

One of my resources was from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Read all my posts before you assume that my sources are all amateur blog posts.

I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.

While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).

BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.

Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.

Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.

There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.

The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.

As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)

That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:

The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.

Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.

The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.

There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.

As for the references showing muscle loss:

#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34

#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions

#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:

"Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"

While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims.

#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.

#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:

Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.

The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.

The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.

While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.

Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html

This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.

+1.

I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.

Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.

I've been on a ketogenic diet for a little over 41 months now.

While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).

BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.

Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.

Once I started lifting (a little over a year into the diet) I did gain muscle - about 5 pounds in the first year - without having a clue what I was doing. But honestly, that was to be expected as I'd severely atrophied after 5 years of heavy bed-rest due to a spinal injury, and my results aren't common or replicable in the vast-majority of others.

There is no doubt that building muscle now is MUCH more difficult - but I'm certainly not losing mass. DEXA scans show a whopping 2 lb increase in lean mass over this time last year. It's not very much (barely 1% increase in lean mass), but I'm thrilled with it. It's roughly the same increase I had last year, FYI.

The ONLY way I've found to do this for myself is adopt a TKD - a targeted ketogenic diet. I time my highest carbohydrate intake to be just prior to exercise, and eat a moderate caloric surplus during my 2 bulking cycles each year. I only add about 10lbs of weight in total during each bulk as I can't afford the decreased insulin-sensitivity that comes with more added bodyfat. Doing this I *stay* ketogenic, but have the carb-intake required to push heavy (I do 5x5 three days per week) and the insulin and growth factors required to build some lean mass.

As a Type I diabetic I *have* to stay ketogenic unless I inject bolus insulin, which I prefer not to do (because I have all the insulin-resistance issues of a Type II as well.)

That's me - that's anecdotal. Now for your studies:

The studies in which ketogenic diets impaired growth in children were on epileptic children, and showed it was likely in those that ate < 80% of their recommended calories AND < 80% of their recommended daily protein intake, and was possible in those that ate protein based on the old recommendations of intake.

Further studies have shown an increase in dietary protein is warranted for epileptic children on a ketogenic diet, and most specialists recognize and prescribe that now.

The nail in the coffin on your ketogenic-diet/stunted grown argument is that epileptics that experience seizures prior to age 18 are universally statistically shorter than norm, REGARDLESS of diet. The statistics on stunted-growth are higher for those that took phenytoin prior to completing growth as well. It's not just the diet that matters, it's the disease.

There are no studies that show a ketogenic diet stunts / alters growth in non-epileptic children.

As for the references showing muscle loss:

#1 is an article, not a study, that states simply "On the other hand some less desirable immediate effects such as enhanced lean body mass loss ... have been reported. But it should be noted that this was on "low-carb" diets, not ketogenic per se, AND there are more studies show the ketogenic diet is lean-mass-sparing than show a loss.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34

#2 is informational only and reaches no conclusions

#3 states "which MAY have an impact on the balance between anabolic and catabolic processes and subsequently influence the effectiveness of training" ... but if you read[/u[ the study (even just the abstract) it showed clearly that:

"Neither the magnitude nor the pattern of the hormonal changes were affected by L-CHO diet except the NA (noradrenaline) threshold, which was lowered ... It is concluded that restriction of CHO intake (a) does not affect the pattern of changes in plasma A, hGH, and T concentrations during graded exercise but lowers NA threshold"

While opening up some discussion about the importance of noradrenaline in muscular development, this study does nothing to support your claims.

#4 and #5 are again, informational and again, neither is a study. Nor do they support the claim you can't build muscle while ketogenic.

#6 is a rat study about why seizures are suppressed by the ketogenic diet. They determined:

Because mTOR signaling has been implicated in epileptogenesis, these results suggest that the KD may have anticonvulsant or antiepileptogenic actions via mTOR pathway inhibition.

The extrapolation of this rodent study to mean ketogenic diets cause muscle loss in humans isn't warranted or even logical.

The last study again shows what we've known for a while, and again is on epileptic children. No scientist would automatically associate this with healthy bodybuilders, especially based on the information I provided on epilepsy and growth above.

While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.

Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html

This. I believe the original post just got thoroughly mythbusted.

+1.

I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.

Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.

My thought as well.....
Let's not mix the two that we are talking of here.

oookaay *sigh

oookaay *sigh

So you are saying that muscle mass and muscular strength are the same???

So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.

10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.

How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?

He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.

So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.

For people who have large body fat percentages and high lean body fat mass and do extensive power lifting, cleaning up a diet will result in weight loss.

10,000 calories cannot be stored in one day anyway.

How much were you eating before you lost the 50 lbs? 6000 calories daily?

He also said he lost 20lbs of muscle in that 50lbs... which resulted in lower lifts, hence his bailing on the idea. Which of course, is fine- if the method interferes with your goals, don't use it.

He only said he was pretty sure that 20 lbs of it was muscle. He has no idea, in fact. In cases like this, people should be getting an inbody analysis.