Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle
Replies
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Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.0 -
Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.
At the moment, I truly couldn't say whether the ketogenic diet is optimal for building muscle mass. Should be OK for pure strength. I am planning on testing it on myself with a permanent proper ketogenic diet. If my muscle strength gains coincide with people who use recommended diets, then I will consider it a good runner-up. At the moment, I am only sure that it is possible to maintain current strength and become stronger (not necessarily increase muscle mass) with the long-term ketogenic diet.0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.
This I don't get.
When you eat most any foods, there is always an insulin response.0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
What is your goals, might I ask?0 -
Pure strength. One day I do deadlifts working up to my 1RM, and then dips working up to 2-3M.
The other day squats working up to 1RM and pull-ups working up to 2-3 RM.0 -
From Lyle Mcdonald's site: For reasons beyond the scope of this article, the CKD is most likely not the optimal diet for mass gains.While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
I am a avid fan of Lyle McDonald and will submit that his knowledge far exceeds my own. Just puttin' it out there.
Coming from a major body building tycoon's magazine (MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT) and edited by a huge supporter of bodybuilding and fitness (Steve Blechman) the article is far from biased.BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
But we're not speaking on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet. The reference is to ENERGY DEPRIVATION AND KETOSIS.Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Thanks for the studies. Haven't read them yet but will.
But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
So the goal of the author was to deadlift more weight. He did. But did he build muscle? Did I miss that?Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Pure strength. One day I do deadlifts working up to my 1RM, and then dips working up to 2-3M.
The other day squats working up to 1RM and pull-ups working up to 2-3 RM.
Then why ketogenic diet?0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.
May I ask why you only eat 75-80 g protein?
I have 112 lbs of LBM and eat between 80-108 g a day (when I am not having a Crohn's flareup).0 -
Hmmm. I see you're point, but I still think that even with 250 lbs of lean mass, he would only need around 125 grams of protein, up to 150 max. Depends of course, on how often he does his powerlifting. But that aside, I've actually figured out why Left. probably lost so much strength! I nearly forgot about this but:
Based on what? The most trusted keto resources out there are recommending around 0.8-1.0/lb of LBM for lifters. If he's at 250lb of LBM (which, again, is off the charts), your suggestion of 125-150 is around 0.5g. That's woefully inadequate, even for someone his size that's sedentary. For someone who's not lifting, then sure you can get by with less protein because your body isn't constantly repairing and building your muscles back up.
OK, I'm going to test this on myself. I have 155 lbs of lean muscle mass and only take in 75-80 grams of protein. I am starting up my strength training again. If I don't have the same strength gains as I did before, then I will have to agree with you.
Edit: I was able to add 80 lbs to my deadlift in 2 months on a high carg 3000+ calorie diet. Newbie gains should last about a year, so I take it an additional 10 months of lifting with a different diet will show different results if the diet aspect was crucial.
May I ask why you only eat 75-80 g protein?
I have 112 lbs of LBM and eat between 80-108 g a day (when I am not having a Crohn's flareup).
A good ketogenic diet recommends around 1 gram of protein per KG of LBM (1kg = 2.2 lbs)0 -
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.
That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....
I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.
But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
Enjoy.0 -
Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.
That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....
I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.
But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
Enjoy.
That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?0 -
How many do it on just a ketogenic diet? One absent of carbs?Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.
He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.0 -
Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.
That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....
I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.
But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
Enjoy.
That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?
Anything I want.
You can view my diary, it should be open.
This past Sunday I have about 4000 calories in it....but I think it was more like 4500....
My 6-pack is still in place.0 -
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.
He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
So then why do u want to do Keto??
You are right, he was extremely energetic, athletic, and strong....
All while eating a lot of carbs0 -
Health and weight loss. Jack Lalanne and Bruce Lee were able to perform superhuman feats even though they did not eat half a cow daily.
That is also because they practiced their loves daily....
Bruce Lee made martial arts a priority in his life.....
I eat how I eat, and my health markers have improved greatly since August of last year.
I have also went from 183 -> 168 lbs.
My strength is still where I was, if not better.....its my joints that give me fits.
But if you think/want Ketogenic, then more power to you.
Enjoy.
That's true, trying to learn from them. What do you usually eat?
Anything I want.
You can view my diary, it should be open.
This past Sunday I have about 4000 calories in it....but I think it was more like 4500....
My 6-pack is still in place.
How much do you exercise?0 -
I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.
He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.
He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, I wasn't negating what you said, just adding. Sorry, I was able to guess that JKD is Jeet kun do, but what does BIL stand for?0 -
How much do you exercise?
Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.0 -
How much do you exercise?
Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.
Wow, that's some drive. I don't have that kind of mental energy yet. After over a decade of laziness and inactivity, I am just doing strength workouts twice a week. Nothing on rest days, yet. You are pretty much working out (in some form) every day. I don't think many people can do that.0 -
brother in law
I'm not debating how he got muscular. I was comparing how the visualization of muscularity ISN'T the same as actually building muscle.
Muscularity isn't the same as "building" muscle. Bruce Lee was "muscular" as hell..............but his lean body mass was around 121.5lbs. Not very much muscle considering his height at 5'7".I have a number of friends who have degrees in Kinesiology, are certified personal trainers, follow a ketogenic diet and they are very muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
He didn't do the keto diet though, he ate plenty of rice and pasta.
He wasn't just muscular, he was insanely strong. He could side-kick a punching bag and have fly up and bang against the ceiling. I'd much prefer that kind of strength over muscle mass, though that's off-topic.
And I would NEVER dispute his strength. As a kickboxing instructor, I've studied a lot of his videos on power and he's amazing. My BIL is an actual instructor in San Diego on JKD principles and we goof around alot when we get together. My BIL is built very similar to Bruce Lee (same height and weight) and is quite strong.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes, I wasn't negating what you said, just adding. Sorry, I was able to guess that JKD is Jeet kun do, but what does BIL stand for?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
How many do it on just a ketogenic diet? One absent of carbs?Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
What do you mean by "just" a ketogenic diet? The K in TKD/CKD stands for ketogenic and the D stands for diet, so I would call those ketogenic diets. If you're asking about SKD, probably not many (just my best guess), but that's why there are tools such as TKD/CKD for people who want to follow a ketogenic diet while keeping their muscle glycogen stores a bit more replenished.But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.
So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.0 -
Fascinating thread. Will have to read more later.0
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How much do you exercise?
Weight lift 4 - 5 times a week
my "rest" days are about 40 - 45 min of light cardio (stairmaster and elliptical) and ab work.
Wow, that's some drive. I don't have that kind of mental energy yet. After over a decade of laziness and inactivity, I am just doing strength workouts twice a week. Nothing on rest days, yet. You are pretty much working out (in some form) every day. I don't think many people can do that.
Yeah I guess so.
I enjoy doing it, I find it to be a stress relief.....
Been doing weight lifting now for almost 20 yrs.....
Used to do a lot of Volleyball and Basketball.....but now just weight lifting and my light cardio0 -
So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.
The other thing I would add to what you are saying
Is that there are plenty of studies that show protein and carbs benefit MPS0 -
So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.
Exactly, calories in<calories out=fat loss. My maintenance is 3500 cals a day. I usually bulk on 4,000 cals a day yet I was rapidly losing weight on 4,000 which tells me the only way for me to have lost weight on that diet is ketosis. People can hit ketosis on 100g of carbs a day if they have enough lean mass and train hard. All of the "numbers" you are throwing around such as "50g of carbs or less to eat ketosis" are ballpark figures. They are true for sedentary individuals of average muscularity but don't apply to everyone. You literally just told us that you have no experience in this yet you argue like your misguided opinion is the say all, end all.0 -
In...
...to catch up later.0
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