Ketogenic diets DON'T build muscle
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TKD/CKD are approaches of many bodybuilders and competitive athletes. Most people here aren't that. Standard keto is what most are doing here, so it would be appropriate to address their needs.
How many do it on just a ketogenic diet? One absent of carbs?Definition and actual muscle mass are two entirely different things. They may appear muscular, but that does not mean they "built" muscle mass. I am eating at a deficit and seeing definition..why? Because I had a layer of fat covering up already available muscle. I did not "build" more muscle.
There are plenty of bodybuilders out there that follow a TKD and have put on plenty of mass doing so. Is it optimal compared to a diet that includes more carbs? Hard to say, but I'd probably wager they could add mass faster on a non-keto bulk. But the fact remains that there are plenty of people using TKD/CKD diets to recomp/lean bulk and adding muscle mass in the process.
You can debate what's optimal, but the notion that it's impossible to add muscle on a keto diet is nonsense.
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What do you mean by "just" a ketogenic diet? The K in TKD/CKD stands for ketogenic and the D stands for diet, so I would call those ketogenic diets. If you're asking about SKD, probably not many (just my best guess), but that's why there are tools such as TKD/CKD for people who want to follow a ketogenic diet while keeping their muscle glycogen stores a bit more replenished.But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.
Oh I believe it's both. Carbs are anabolic. The more anabolic the body is, the easier it is to build tissue. I'll just refer back to Lyle Mcdonald (who is probably the best authority on keto) stating that building muscle, even on CKD isn't going to be optimal.So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.
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So you are suggesting that I never entered ketosis yet I lost 50lbs in 3 months eating on average 4,000 calories a day? And as much as 10,000 calories on my carb nite? My friend, there is only one explanation for that fat loss and it is ketosis.
That's right, you never entered ketosis. Eating 250-300 g of protein a day most certainly stimulated an insulin response. When an insulin response is stimulated, that means you were never in ketosis.
Calories in<calories out= fat loss.
Exactly, calories in<calories out=fat loss. My maintenance is 3500 cals a day. I usually bulk on 4,000 cals a day yet I was rapidly losing weight on 4,000 which tells me the only way for me to have lost weight on that diet is ketosis. People can hit ketosis on 100g of carbs a day if they have enough lean mass and train hard. All of the "numbers" you are throwing around such as "50g of carbs or less to eat ketosis" are ballpark figures. They are true for sedentary individuals of average muscularity but don't apply to everyone. You literally just told us that you have no experience in this yet you argue like your misguided opinion is the say all, end all.
I admit that I forgot to account for the fact that you have nearly double my lean body mass while stating carb limits, however, I have to point out that if you were doing regular carb nights and refeeding, you were interrupting your keto-adaptation. It takes 4-6 weeks to become decently keto-adapted, and about 6 months to a year of constant ketosis to be able to break ketosis without having to re-do the entire adaptation process.
The constant state of being in keto-adaptation is what weakened you, not the ketogenic diet in and of itself.0 -
So if we're talking specifically about people in a caloric deficit, what makes you think it's the ketogenic diet preventing them from building muscle mass and not their caloric deficit? Studies are actually conflicting as to whether ketogenic diets are more or less sparing of LBM (and the answer may be they're roughly the same, provided protein and resistance training remain constant), but it's fairly conclusive that most people cannot build significant muscle mass in a caloric deficit. I'm not saying people don't make exaggerated claims to the contrary, but I don't think there's a widespread belief that ketogenic diets somehow build muscle in a caloric deficit.
The other thing I would add to what you are saying
Is that there are plenty of studies that show protein and carbs benefit MPS
Sure, but there are also plenty of studies showing that protein intake beyond a certain point has no benefit when it comes to building muscle. If you're getting adequate protein on a ketogenic diet, the only variable left is carbs, and in all my research on the topic, I've never seen conclusive proof that carbs are a major contributor to LBM retention. The only factors I've seen that consistently been shown to affect LBM retention are a) resistance training and b) adequate protein, with a third factor being not running a caloric deficit so extreme that your body is forced to catabolize your lean mass for energy. While I don't think a standard ketogenic diet is optimal for building muscle, I don't think you can translate that into any sort of conclusive statement that ketogenic diets are less sparing of lean body mass on a caloric deficit, nor does the available evidence conclusively support such a statement. To the extent we're talking about building muscle on a significant caloric deficit, well, show me any diet proven to do this consistently and I'll switch to it immediately.
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Sure, but there are also plenty of studies showing that protein intake beyond a certain point has no benefit when it comes to building muscle. If you're getting adequate protein on a ketogenic diet, the only variable left is carbs, and in all my research on the topic, I've never seen conclusive proof that carbs are a major contributor to LBM retention. The only factors I've seen that consistently been shown to affect LBM retention are a) resistance training and b) adequate protein, with a third factor being not running a caloric deficit so extreme that your body is forced to catabolize your lean mass for energy. While I don't think a standard ketogenic diet is optimal for building muscle, I don't think you can translate that into any sort of conclusive statement that ketogenic diets are less sparing of lean body mass on a caloric deficit, nor does the available evidence conclusively support such a statement. To the extent we're talking about building muscle on a significant caloric deficit, well, show me any diet proven to do this consistently and I'll switch to it immediately.
Other than I think protein sources taste awesome
carbs cause an insulin response which means that your body will not resort to using fat, and I would assume muscle, as sources for energy......but I could be very wrong on that.0 -
250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.
Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.
Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!
Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
Its recommended that someone that is doing some light walking or no exercise stay under that 50 grams of carbs per day mark..........
I know someone that was in ketosis despite eating around 80 grams of carbs per day. She is very active and a marathon runner.0 -
Oh I believe it's both. Carbs are anabolic. The more anabolic the body is, the easier it is to build tissue. I'll just refer back to Lyle Mcdonald (who is probably the best authority on keto) stating that building muscle, even on CKD isn't going to be optimal.
But what Lyle doesn't say is that ketogenic diets are any more or less sparing of lean body mass than non-keto diets. Rather, he says studies are mixed on this issue and it may well come down to what's best for a particular individual. Not building significant amounts of muscle at a caloric deficit has a lot more to do (in my opinion) with the caloric deficit than it does with your carb macro, but I don't disagree that it's less than optimal to bulk on a keto diet in terms of adding muscle mass (although I've heard some people report it helps them stay leaner on their bulk, which could at least help even things out a bit in the long run). At the same time though, we're talking about optimal gains and not the ability to see gains whatsoever, and I suspect most people here aren't bulking on a ketogenic diet in the first place.
To the extent you're just addressing the overstated and exaggerated posters on here that claim to be building lots of muscle at a caloric deficit (and I'm sure at least one has tried to attribute their "success" to their ketogenic diet), I suspect we're in complete agreement about the likelihood they really added significant muscle mass at a deficit.0 -
Here's more:
Advantages of a Ketogenic Diet
Superior fat loss
Better appetite control
Increased uncoupling proteins stimulated in muscle and fat
Lowers cardiovascular risk by reducing insulin, triglycerides, etc.
Ketogenic diets may be cardioprotective
Disadvantages of a Ketogenic Diet
Insulin is a potent anti-catabolic hormone.
Low-carb diets are currently being used to reduce prostate cancer via reducing IGF-1.
Ketogenic diets promote acidosis in muscle (reduced Ph), which can increase muscle tissue proteolysis.
Ketogenic diets turn on genes for catabolism. (SEE AMPK section).
Reduced exercise intensity
Carbs suppress cortisol
Lowers SHBG (i.e., lowers free testosterone)
Why Ketogenic Diets May Not Be Conducive for Muscle Anabolism
During the Pre-competition Diet
Many people on the message boards were asking, “Where is your proof that you need carbs to build muscle?” There are two studies that lead one to speculate that training in a glycogen-depleted state leads to impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy. This study does not prove that being in a glycogen-depleted state all the time may not be healthy for muscle anabolism.
The study was published in the Journal of Applied Physiology and reported that performing resistance training in a glycogen-depleted state results in impaired genes for muscle hypertrophy.1 The study follows a 2005 study in which researchers from the Human Performance Lab in Indiana reported that a glycogen-depletion diet blunts the expression of the muscle protein Akt. Akt, or protein kinase B (PKB), is an important molecule in cellular signaling. Akt is also able to induce protein synthesis pathways and is therefore a key signaling protein in the cellular pathways that lead to skeletal muscle hypertrophy and general tissue growth.
Akt is regulated in response to a wide variety of growth factors, including insulin and more recently has been associated with rapid activation in response to exercise in human skeletal muscle. In the study, they didn’t use rats or cell cultures; they used resistance-trained athletes. (The athletes had trained for almost 8 years, using resistance exercise and had exceptional leg press strength). Resistance-trained males performed resistance exercise in the glycogen-depleted state or with adequate glycogen stores. The next day the subjects returned to the weight room and completed 1-legged leg presses (8 sets of 5 repetitions ~80 percent of a 1 RM) with one leg that was glycogen-depleted while the other leg was not. Muscle biopsies were taken before exercise, immediately after and three hours after recovery.
When they examined the muscle biopsies, the researchers found that depleted muscle glycogen concentrations reduced the gene expression of muscle hypertrophy genes. Some of the more disturbing findings were that resting levels of genes involved in muscle hypertrophy (Myogenin and IGF-1) were lower in the glycogen-depleted muscle.2 Akt expression was similar in both groups before and immediately after exercise (after 10 minutes of recovery in the high carbohydrate trial). The Akt/mTOR regulates muscle hypertrophy and is downregulated during muscle atrophy. Akt phosphorylation increased 1.5-fold after resistance exercise with glycogen. During the low glycogen trial after exercise, Akt remained unchanged.2 The study concluded that commencing resistance exercise with depleted muscle glycogen does not enhance the activity of genes implicated in promoting hypertrophy. This is the stance that Steve Blechman took on the message boards; low-to-moderate carb diets are better for losing fat and maintaining an anabolic state than a low-carb ketogenic diet. The study raises awareness that low-carb ketogenic diets may not be conducive for putting on muscle mass.
For a look at a brief overview of the study, download a free copy of the National Strength and Conditioning Association’s Performance Training Journal and go to page 5. The article is titled, “Is Muscle Glycogen A Concern For Athletes Who Want To Stimulate Muscle Hypertrophy?” by Gregory Haff, Ph.D.
http://www.nsca-lift.org/perform/Issues/PTJ0606.pdf
The AMPK Connection
AMPK is activated during states of energy stress such as hypoxia, glucose starvation and restores the energy-depleted status by concomitantly inhibiting anabolic and stimulating catabolic pathways.11-13 Protein synthesis, a major consumer of ATP in mammalian cells, is inhibited upon AMPK activation.14 Protein synthesis as mentioned previously is inhibited by increased levels of AMPK.10 Furthermore, the degree of AMPK activation during sub-maximal exercise was also shown to be dependent on the fuel status of the contracting musculature, with AMPK activity elevated to a greater extent in muscle with glycogen depletion compared with high glycogen levels.15 A new study released this month in the Journal of Applied Physiology reported that low levels of glycogen caused an increase in levels of AMPK. They examined athletes (not resistance trained, but endurance athletes) and assigned them to high fat/low carb/high protein diets. The subjects were prescribed a high-fat (4.6 g/kg/bw, 68 percent of energy), low-CHO (2.5 g/kg/day, 17 percent of energy) diet. High carbohydrate was used as a comparison. CHO was an isoenergetic diet providing 10.3 g/kg/day-70 percent of energy from CHO and 1.0 g/kg/day, 18 percent of energy from fat. Protein content was maintained at 2.3 g/kg/day during both trials and diets were constructed to maximize, or at least match, absorbable energy. After 5 days of a high fat/lo-carb diet, levels of AMPK were higher than those on the carbohydrate-rich diet. This is valuable data, but does not prove that carbs play a role in the regulation of muscle mass.
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/nutrition/3578-low-carb-ketogenic-diets-they-burn-fat-but-what-about-muscle.html#.U3Ui0namU1I
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250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein. Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis. Supposing you have 250 pounds of lean body weight, you would only need something like 115-130 grams of protein, depending on workout intensity. And you say something about carb nite? MORE Carbs, there is nothing ketogenic about that. You did not lose muscle mass on a proper ketogenic diet, you lost it on a messed up too many carbs and protein diet, which explains everything.
Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day. Since excess protein gets converted into glucose (carbs), you can never get into ketosis on the diet you mentioned. Ketosis requires a HIGH SATURATED FAT, medium protein, low carb diet.
Edit 2: Saturated fat has cholesterol, which is required to make sex hormones involved in muscle mass like say... TESTOSTERONE!
Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
Its recommended that someone that is doing some light walking or no exercise stay under that 50 grams of carbs per day mark..........
I know someone that was in ketosis despite eating around 80 grams of carbs per day. She is very active and a marathon runner.
Yep, I made a mistake in forgetting to include much higher activity levels into my carb limit suggestion, however, I still believe the carb refeeds are definitely not leaving him in ketosis.0 -
No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.0 -
kanifer, you read his first response to you completely wrong btw.
Lofteren ... Were you doing a standard ketogenic diet, or targeted?I am going to go ahead and make an assumption here. Seeing as how your deadlift is exactly the same, I doubt that it's a very heavy pull. If you were really strong and then went into ketosis and didn't train for 3 weeks your deadlift would have definitely gone down since your body is no longer in a state to support that amount of strength. If you had an unimpressive deadlift to begin with; however, you wouldn't face this issue as abruptly. Furthermore, since it is likely that you aren't particularly strong, you probably haven't learned how to grind through a rep to find your true 1RM which makes gauging your performance on a 1RM deadlift inaccurate. So, just out of curiosity, how much can you deadlift?
I experienced issues with maximum strength until I started a targeted ketogenic diet. I simply didn't have enough circulating glucose to fuel the anaerobic effort required by 1RM's until I timed my carbohydrate intake to increase serum glucose just prior to either strength-training or HIIT.
I was doing the carb nite solution. After that I tried carb back loading for a while which seemed to just maintain my current strength and body composition without a lot of results. Lately I've been eating a pretty standard diet at 3,000cals a day w/ 250-300g protein (and whatever fat and carbs I happen to eat that day) and have been hitting pr's and losing weight so I've found my niche. Keto diets might be good for some people but I am definitely not one of those people.
He is eating 250-300g of protein AFTER he quit ketogenic diet. Just thought I would point this out.Lately I've been eating a pretty standard diet at 3,000cals a day w/ 250-300g protein0 -
No, it's not too much protein. During heavy bodybuilding, most recommendations call for men to have at-least 1g/lb of lean mass per day. Many experts recommend more. Older athletes require more as they age.250-300g of protein? Unless you have 500 pounds of LEAN BODY WEIGHT, that is way too much protein.
Some is converted to glucose, some is excreted as waste. A sampling of trials suggests more is converted to glucose in individuals for whom higher serum glucose levels are the norm - ie: those with insulin-resistance / metabolic syndrome or diabetes.Excess protein gets converted into carbs by the liver, so if you were eating that much protein while doing your so-called ketogenic diet, then you were never in ketosis.
No. There is no set maximum per individual, and if there were it wouldn't be 50g. I test my blood ketones with a very accurate meter daily, and I can stay in ketosis with anywhere from 45g on a non-exercise day to 150g on a heavy exercise day. It takes me 2 full days of NO exercise and > 150g of carbohydrate intake a day to get OUT of ketosis.Edit. Ketosis requires you to be UNDER 50 carbs a day.0 -
No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.0 -
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
there is no way you as an adult male are working hard- netting 500 calories a day- and not suffering some impact after almost a month.
You're either not working out as hard as you think you are- or you are eating more than you think you are.
A small 10 year old child needs more than 500 calories a day to functional properly... much less and adult looking to make any sort of gains.0 -
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
there is no way you as an adult male are working hard- netting 500 calories a day- and not suffering some impact after almost a month.
You're either not working out as hard as you think you are- or you are eating more than you think you are.
A small 10 year old child needs more than 500 calories a day to functional properly... much less and adult looking to make any sort of gains.
Well uhh... I am... I am tracking my calories accurately... and I have the exact same strength I had on a 3000+ calorie diet, though I expect it won't last too long. I have to point out I was at 30% body fat 3 weeks ago. I am currently at 25%. I was borderline obese.... i had too much energy stored. And yes, I work out hard... I do strength training, and I go until I cannot do a single extra rep.
Edit: From your picture you don't look like you have more than 15% body fat or so, am I right? I imagine suddenly going low calorie would be more harmful for you.
Edit 2: I get adequate rest... I only work out twice a week.
Edit 3: In my current phase, I am not looking to make gains, but lose body fat, on a NORMAL ketogenic diet, I will expect to see some gains. My calories will be in the 3000s.0 -
This isn't entirely my experience. And I've been involved in multiple studies now on ketosis and nutrition.??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
What we're finding is that only a percentage of excess protein *may* be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, and that amount varies among individuals. Those with insulin-resistance (regardless of the cause) are more-likely to have higher serum glucose levels with excess protein in their diets than those without.
Those without insulin-resistance have a tendency to excrete most excess as waste.
I stress excess protein "may" be converted to glucose ("may be", not *IS*) because all we're seeing is higher serum blood glucose - not actual evidence it's from the process of GNG itself. Although we suspect that GNG rates may be elevated in the insulin-resistant individual, we don't know if it's due to excess protein or due to homeostatis - the body trying to maintain what has been it's "norm".
BTW most individuals on a VLCKD are only synthesizing about 20g of glucose via gluconeogenesis.
Most people don't realize it takes a LOT of protein to be "excess" when doing regular strength-training for hypertrophy. A LOT.
Even staunch low-carb advocates Volek and Phinney have recommended more than Kanifer suggested for athletes. I personally try to get at minimum 0.8 - 1.0g per lb of lean mass when bulking, but it's pretty difficult to fit that much in some days.0 -
This isn't entirely my experience. And I've been involved in multiple studies now on ketosis and nutrition.??? No. You are twisting my words. My only statement was that too much excess protein (above what your body needs) will kick you out of ketosis, because they are converted to glucose!
What we're finding is that only a percentage of excess protein *may* be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis, and that amount varies among individuals. Those with insulin-resistance (regardless of the cause) are more-likely to have higher serum glucose levels with excess protein in their diets than those without.
Those without insulin-resistance have a tendency to excrete most excess as waste.
I stress excess protein "may" be converted to glucose ("may be", not *IS*) because all we're seeing is higher serum blood glucose - not actual evidence it's from the process of GNG itself. Although we suspect that GNG rates may be elevated in the insulin-resistant individual, we don't know if it's due to excess protein or due to homeostatis - the body trying to maintain what has been it's "norm".
BTW most individuals on a VLCKD are only synthesizing about 20g of glucose via gluconeogenesis.
Most people don't realize it takes a LOT of protein to be "excess" when doing regular strength-training for hypertrophy. A LOT.
Even staunch low-carb advocates Volek and Phinney have recommended more than Kanifer suggested for athletes. I personally try to get at minimum 0.8 - 1.0g per lb of lean mass when bulking, but it's pretty difficult to fit that much in some days.
Volek and Phinney... I actually didn't recognize those names, but when I looked it up, I recognized their faces immediately. They recommend that much protein for bulking? Hmmm. Well according to that, a power lifter with 255 LBM will definitely need bucketloads of protein.
That's around 220-250 grams.0 -
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From Lyle Mcdonald's site: For reasons beyond the scope of this article, the CKD is most likely not the optimal diet for mass gains.While I agree much of what you state may be true on a Standard Ketogenic Diet - it's not necessarily true of either a TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) or CKD (Cyclical Ketogenic Diet).
I am a avid fan of Lyle McDonald and will submit that his knowledge far exceeds my own. Just puttin' it out there.
Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
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Coming from a major body building tycoon's magazine (MUSCULAR DEVELOPMENT) and edited by a huge supporter of bodybuilding and fitness (Steve Blechman) the article is far from biased.BTW in ketogenesis the body isn't "desperate" for energy. That idea is laughable. One could possibly suggest desperation during a starvation experiment, but not on a ketogenic diet. That comment alone leads me to conclude your article is highly-biased.
Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
You seem to have deliberately kept the hypercaloric description of the diet out of your post.
But we're not speaking on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet. The reference is to ENERGY DEPRIVATION AND KETOSIS.Your references about mTOR activation do nothing to suggest that while on a hypercaloric ketogenic diet one cannot gain muscle, and in-fact loses mass. None of your reference support this. Nor does any science I've ever seen.
Again I stress, 90% of your 'article' didn't make any claims on dieting for weight-loss, or being hypercaloric. You stated it was the diet itself.
But again the article speaks of energy deprivation and ketosis diets. More people are subjecting themselves to calorie deficits and ketosis here rather than using forms of CKD. I'm not doubting that in instances of correct nutrition and applying correct exercise resistance that it's IMPOSSIBLE for it to happen, however in reference to the forums here (where people make exaggerated claims of muscle building while in calorie deficit) and to the majority of people who use ketogenic diets for weight loss, the article is actually quite accurate.While I appreciate that it can be difficult for some people to gain mass on a ketogenic diet - It's not impossible, nor does science reach the consensus that it promotes muscle loss. More studies show that even when hypocaloric, it is, by nature, muscle sparing. And experts like Lyle McDonald agree.
As someone who is certified, you surely understand the difference between "diet" and a "hypocaloric diet" - yet you seemingly deliberately left that part out, making claims unsupported by science.
You finally summarize as follows:
But again, Steve Blechman, the source of your post was speaking of hypertrophy/muscle-building. And you're now saying it's regarding dieting for fat-loss. These are two very different goals.When dieting, people seek the fastest and most effective way to lose fat. For athletes and bodybuilders, ketogenic dieting is counterproductive. Muscle loss is too high a price to pay for reduced fat.
But even for fat-loss, the vast-majority of studies comparing a VLCKD to any other show the ketogenic diet to be protein-sparing. Again, Lyle McDonald agrees.
What you obviously missed were the scientific references backing up his points and disproving yours. As well as mine doing the same.
So the goal of the author was to deadlift more weight. He did. But did he build muscle? Did I miss that?Also in counter to your claims is an excellent article with 15 scientific references here: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/can-you-build-muscle-on-a-ketogenic-diet.html
The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.0 -
JoRocka, you're correct in that there is no "fixed" magic number. The recommendation for under 50g actually comes for a few reasons - but isn't applicable to everyone.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
< 50g a day will certainly get ANYONE, even a non-exerciser, into ketosis, period.
Those with higher metabolisms can eat more. Those exercising can eat more. Those doing intense exercise NEED more and still maintain ketosis. My days run anywhere from under 40g to well over 150g, and I maintain ketosis without issue.
FYI Lyle McDonald clearly states (sourced from dozens of articles) that an actual intake of <100g per day will get *most* individuals into ketosis.
A few of the reasons the <50g target is mentioned:
1. It helps people reduce glycogen stores quicker, getting weight-loss results (water weight) quicker, motivating some;
2. Some people don't track properly, so targeting < 50g and actually getting 75g isn't a huge problem;
3. FDA labeling is allowed to "err" by 20% - often low-carb products have more CHO than they claim.
Atkins induction phase targets fewer than 30g. Dr. Richard Bernstein advocates <30g for diabetics. As a diabetic I eat more simply because I'm a heavy exerciser and require it as such. I maintain both ketosis and excellent glucose levels though, even with > 150g per day.0 -
No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
Just a tip. Learn to listen to people who know more than you. Sure, think through everything that is said, mull it over in your head and challenge it to yourself, but after several years I'm still learning, have a hell of a lot more to learn, and I can honestly say that there are only a handful of people on here, just a handful, that really know their **** when it comes to either nutrition and/or lifting. If you're serious then you won't piss them off too early . . .0 -
Carbs and insulin are evil. except when you want to build muscle. 0
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No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
Just a tip. Learn to listen to people who know more than you. Sure, think through everything that is said, mull it over in your head and challenge it to yourself, but after several years I'm still learning, have a hell of a lot more to learn, and I can honestly say that there are only a handful of people on here, just a handful, that really know their **** when it comes to either nutrition and/or lifting. If you're serious then you won't piss them off too early . . .
I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.0 -
I'll take the advise of the person with decades more experience any day.0
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...meaning that what increases muscle-building also tends to promote fat gain
No worries. Muscle weighs more than fat.0 -
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Great topic to post Ninerbuff.
And what a fantastic rebuttal post from Albertabeefy!
And kanifers posts?
My take away is:
Does ketogenic diets build muscle - yes
Is it the most optimal way to do it - probably not.
Probably the first time I've agreed with you :laugh:
Talk about majoring in the minors. Want to build some muscle? Lift stuff, eat enough protein and cals. Sleep lots. Fark, getting lost in the details is really not going to help.
Maybe some people should step away from the computer some time and lift? :laugh:0 -
No, I'm weak because I've only been working out for 2 months, however, I do my research. Since my deadlift went from 198 to 286 in only 2 months, I say I'm doing pretty well for myself.
newb gains.
I'm pulling 285 for a working 1 rep max.
And Lofteren is right- there is a significant difference between a true 1 rep max and a training 1 rep max.
and not for nothing at 2 months- you're still very- very very new to this game.
There is no way you could be netting 500 a day and still maintain- I was netting around 1000 and after 3 weeks was struggling with balance, excessive tiredness, violent mood swings and inconsistent lifts.
it is my understanding there is no "fixed" magic number for ketosis- but I've only ever seen in my reading you should be under 50-40 a day. 80 seems wildly high- I was under 50 for some time and I'm pretty active and there is no way I was in ketosis.Ketosis doesn't require someone to be under 50 carbs per day. The more active a person is, the more carbs they can have and achieve ketosis still.
I am new to the game, indeed. However, I am not tired at all, in fact, I have great energy, no mood swings, and my lifts are constant. (I am supplementing with vitamins though). 3 weeks into my current restrictive diet I still have the exact same deadlift after 3 weeks of inactivity, newb gains or not, that shows that my muscles did not atrophy.
Just a tip. Learn to listen to people who know more than you. Sure, think through everything that is said, mull it over in your head and challenge it to yourself, but after several years I'm still learning, have a hell of a lot more to learn, and I can honestly say that there are only a handful of people on here, just a handful, that really know their **** when it comes to either nutrition and/or lifting. If you're serious then you won't piss them off too early . . .
I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!0 -
Well, if you'll listen to everything, perhaps listen to (former) staunch low-carb advocate Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who recently switched his own diet from low-carb/high-fat to low-fat/high-carb.I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!
Why the switch? He has no medical reason to eat low-carb, and is bodybuilding.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/low-carb-convert
http://drspencer.com/the-low-carb-to-high-carb-switch-part-1/
He's learned that as an athlete (now doing bodybuilding) who is otherwise healthy, the diet isn't optimal for him.
Before people assume that he's now anti-low-carb, he's not. In regards to making his own dietary switch he also says:Does my success with a higher carb diet mean that I’ve completely turned my back on low carbohydrate diets? No.
Does it mean that you should immediately go face-down in a bowl of oatmeal? Not necessarily.
In fact, most of my new patients still get the low carb prescription. Why? Because if you’re inactive and overweight, it’s much easier to get your blood sugar and blood pressure controlled on a lower carb diet.
He's living proof a ketogenic diet can be healthy, but isn't optimal for hypertrophy. He's also done enough research to still know it's one of the best diets for inactive, overweight and/or diabetic individuals.0 -
Actually it was about information on building muscle on a ketogenic diet. The article I reposted mentions the lean muscle loss. And yes I didn't post that it was due to a hypocaloric diet in the OP.Your post wasn't about mass gains (though the title was), it claims a ketogenic diet caused muscle loss. Which is not the case. Your post also didn't state it referred to a hypocaloric diet.
A ketogenic diet is simply one that meets a ketogenic ratio. If you want to claim this muscle loss only happens when hypocaloric, you should state that. However, the weight of the evidence is still against you.
I'd have to research more on catabolic effect. Let me get back to you on this.Well, Steve Blechman doesn't come out and state quite that, what he says, in summary, is:
He states it's NOT the best for muscle-growth/hypertrophy. That was his claim. He does claim it's catabolic, but very little evidence actually supports that, and Lyle McDonald has repeatedly shown otherwise.Steve Blechman: http://forums.musculardevelopment.com/showthread.php/50949-The-Best-Low-Carb-Ketogenic-Diet-for-Fat-Loss!!
The bottom line is that based on scientific research, low-carb ketogenic diets are not optimal for muscle growth or muscle hypertrophy!! Low-carb ketogenic diets are very effective for fat loss and appetite control. I personally believe that for most bodybuilders some carbohydrates are necessary to hold on to muscle while losing fat during a pre-competition diet. Only through trial and error can you find out exactly how many carbs you need and how frequently they should be consumed.
So going forward, I believe it's safe to say that if someone was looking for muscle hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic) that a ketogenic diet probably isn't the most optimal way to go.The bottom line here is a ketogenic diet is NOT the best for hypertrophy in a healthy individual, and I thoroughly agree with that. There is no doubt that there is a requirement for carbohydrate intake and the subsequent release of insulin and IGF to trigger optimal anabolism. However there is no truth to the claim that the diet itself causes muscle LOSS, nor that you cannot build muscle while on it. You won't build muscle/experience hypertrophy in a hypocaloric state regardless of what kind of diet you're on.
I realize the article made some strong statements and even the evidence of muscle loss was not strong at best. The main intention was to inform those who do ketogenic diets on here and go about the process of hypertrophy, may need to alter their diet to attain the results they want.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
Well, if you'll listen to everything, perhaps listen to (former) staunch low-carb advocate Dr. Spencer Nadolsky, who recently switched his own diet from low-carb/high-fat to low-fat/high-carb.I'll agree with the "think through everything and challenge it to yourself part." However, experience trumps advice. I'll listen to something presented to me in a calm and friendly manner and consider it seriously. If someone is upset by that... that is their issue. :-) If I say I am feeling good, and actually have insane energy even at 1:30 A.M., that for me trumps someone who not me, not feeling what I am feeling and saying: there no way that etc. etc. etc.
Lol @ experience trumps advice. YOU HAVE 2 MONTHS OF EXPERIENCE!
Why the switch? He has no medical reason to eat low-carb, and is bodybuilding.
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/low-carb-convert
http://drspencer.com/the-low-carb-to-high-carb-switch-part-1/
He's learned that as an athlete (now doing bodybuilding) who is otherwise healthy, the diet isn't optimal for him.
Before people assume that he's now anti-low-carb, he's not. In regards to making his own dietary switch he also says:Does my success with a higher carb diet mean that I’ve completely turned my back on low carbohydrate diets? No.
Does it mean that you should immediately go face-down in a bowl of oatmeal? Not necessarily.
In fact, most of my new patients still get the low carb prescription. Why? Because if you’re inactive and overweight, it’s much easier to get your blood sugar and blood pressure controlled on a lower carb diet.
He's living proof a ketogenic diet can be healthy, but isn't optimal for hypertrophy. He's also done enough research to still know it's one of the best diets for inactive, overweight and/or diabetic individuals.
Thanks for the links. I carefully read through them, and I have some issues with them.
1: He did not say by how much his muscle mass increased, and even if it did, a large portion of it would inevitably be stored glycogen and water which glycogen attracts due to its being hydrophillic. That is not true muscle mass. (Now if he increases by more than 10 lbs, in the month AFTER introduction of high amounts of carbs then I'd say some of his gains are really muscle mass)
2: The second and far more important problem with his claims on the high carb diet: he has no benchmark to compare it to. He did regular exercise on his low carb stint, but NEVER tried competitive (and I would assume more intense) bodybuilding. When he wanted to go into bodybuilding, ***his coach immediately had him switch his diet***. So he never even TRIED it on the low carb diet.
3. Also, I'd like to point out, his diet was lowER carb than most people, but not truly ketosis. He was eating 150 carbs a day on average. 15% of his total caloric intake (deep ketosis should be less, closer to 5%). I am not talking integers here anymore, but percentages. I am sure he does not even have close to 300 lbs of LBM. Even if he exercises for 2 hours a day, I'm not sure he can get into ketosis. He also mentioned that he had carb binges on occasions. This is in addition to being in a weak ketosis. You know how many "occasions" prominents have? How is the body supposed to get keto-adapted with all those carbs? When carbs go in your system, your body prioritizes them, because it's used to them.
I would have liked to see a study with him doing bodybuilding for a year on a ketogenic diet, and then trying high carb. If he had done an experiment/study showing THOSE, then I would have been interested.
There is a marked difference between low carb and ketogenic.0 -
One of the major problems with the fitness community is that they try and treat it as though it were a PURE science. Science does indeed play a large role in our diet and training; however, athletes are generally well ahead of the scientific curve because they don't require a peer reviewed study to make discoveries as to what affects their performance and/or physique. This is why everything you have said thus far is basically invalid, Kanifer.
The only things you know you read out of a book because you have zero experience and, as anyone with a high-skill profession can tell you, you can know everything in the world but if you have no experience applying that knowledge than it means nothing. Please, for the love of God, keep your mouth shut and go train for years and years and then come back and read the ridiculous things you have posted in this thread.0
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