Veganism

To be fair- I did say- and I quote
"If you are going to try to start an intelligent discussion then you need to arm yourself intelligently and put some more research into this"

But that is clearly NOT a personal attack. Or calling the OP unintelligent or ignorant or stupid, nor is it bashing her.

Yeah, I read that. I didn't think it was a personal attack (because it wasn't). That's why I didn't include it when responding the the OP's claims of persecution. I guess, if I stretch, I could see how it could be taken as insulting. But, I didn't read it that way.

I haven't done much research. All I know is, damn I love meat. I feel fine when I eat it, and I have no moral objection to it. My uncle is a cattleherd. Those cows live happier lives than I do. I've seen them.

Point by Point


1. Humans are not carnivores.

Correct statement in that we are not only meat eaters. We've been omnivores for eons. Studies and science cannot change that. We may be evolving to herbivores, but based on what I eat, I'd say I'm not there yet. Guess I'm behind on the evolutionary scale. I also find it absolutely amazing that the vast majority of humans on the planet (we're talking in the billions here) are omnivores, when all these studies say that it is against our nature and physiology. If all the evidence says that humans are designed to be vegan, who is the piper that led us down the road of ruination by convincing us it is okay to eat meat? That had to be the biggest marketing feat ever!


2. Food safety

Now I think we're off into organic vs. non-organic arguments. You can be a non-organic vegan and still have those concerns with pesticides.

3. Mistreatment of animals

Check and see how KFC gets their chicken. Chances are your chicken breast are from a very similar process, especially if purchased at your local grocery store.

Animals (free range and grass fed) are treated pretty well...right up to the time they're killed for consumption. I would say most would call that mistreatment. I know I would feel mistreated if someone were to kill me. Let's ask the guy in Arizona if he feels he was mistreated.


CONS of Veganism:

1. Deficiencies

If you eat the right foods, you can make up these deficiencies. It's mostly about combining the proper foods.

2. Morality

Now we're getting out to where the buses don't run, but I do like that you recognize that, while those wearing the capes with the big V are claiming the moral high ground because they don't kill living things, they need to take a look at where their fruits, vegetables and nuts come from. These are living things and when you chomp on them, they are dead..

The sad fact is that pro-vegan activist like to use this argument to guilt us meat eaters into something we don't want to do. Yet are they out there with the meat eating lions, tigers and such convincing them to not eat other animals? Then why pick on me? Oh, because it is against the law for me to kill them for doing so and I have sufficient MORALITY to make them feel safe enough to approach me to espouse their viewpoint.

3. Environment:

Pesticides consumption can be tricky, but I'd be willing to bet a Big Mac that there is no place in the continental U. S. that hasn't had the water contaminated to some degree with some sort of chemical. If someone is watering crops to the extent they are causing a drought, that's news to me. Also a bit counterproductive. What good is your crop if everyone you are selling it to dies of thirst?

My thoughts:

Vegan or vegetarian-why the distinction? It's because a vegetarian is just a sort of committed vegan, unwilling to take their alleged belief to the point of discomfort in not being able to enjoy some of the foods they've loved since birth. "I''m a vegetarian so I can eat eggs and drink milk. I just don't eat meat". Yes, you do. It is just the meat hasn't matured yet. Someone I know recently went vegetarian and continues to buy snack crackers and other such fare. Read the labels and see what sort of products that come from animal flesh are in there.

If someone wants to go vegan or vegetarian, I say go for it. I have known people that have done so; some stick with it some don't. Personally, I would miss a good sirloin steak, medium well (preferably from Ruth's Chris Steak House) way too much if I went that route.

But if you want to go vegan, just do it and be quiet about it. I don't say a word to people about my choices until they get all up in my grille (pun intended) about trying to convert me to their choice. Like the woman soliciting money for All Species Kinship in front of the grocery store, asking me about don't I want to have a special kinship with the little critters. I told her I do have that kinship, every time I grill their flesh. I think she threw up a bit in her mouth; Like I said - I don't push mine on you so don't think because I'm walking in the store you can push yours on me without getting a little pushback.

Then again, I'm a bit childish that way.

There really is no debate to be had. It's a totally personal choice that requires no justification.

I am mostly vegan/vegetarian because I choose to be.

You and I may be on completely opposite sides of the diet spectrum, but on this we agree. If you want to be vegan, you have no requirement to justify your choice to anyone. If you don't want to be, you also have no requirement to justify that decision.

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At JoRocka,

morality is the only pro to veganism

"this. There is no health reason to go full vegan.

"

I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.

Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.

ill read up on this when i have time later tonight, but ill say this for now, there may be health related positives to veganism, but there are also negatives (previously mentioned in this thread; anemia, vitamin deficiencies) . the real question is do the pro's outweigh the cons

also, quick google search yeilded some results that disagree with Esselstine and Lustig;
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479151
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23497300

At dbmata,

"Who cares?"

Obviously, you care. You have posted an extremely long item here! Taking such time shows that you care.

For whatever that is worth . . .

Very informative and convincing response there.

Most doctors don't recommend complete veganism. It's mostly because there is too many restrictions on food and sometimes it is difficult to get all nutrients even on a vegetarian diet. So I'd suggest vegetarian is a better way to go.

I find this topic and most parts of this thread interesting. I have been curious about vegetarian/vegan styles of eating for a while, and often have meat-free meals or whole days. But not sure I'd be able to go meat free entirely, as sometimes I crave animal protein.

There really is no debate to be had. It's a totally personal choice that requires no justification.

This. I'm a vegan, but I don't really concern myself with other people's diets.

When people who are interested in trying a vegan diet ask me how to start, however, I usually will direct them to the following two books/eBooks:
1/ Vegan for Life by Ginny Messina and Jack Norris
2/ Becoming Vegan Express Edition by Brenda Davis and Vesanto Melina

I advise people considering a vegan diet to read these first and then decide whether or not such a diet sounds feasible to them before they attempt to go fully vegan, as one *can* run into nutrient deficiencies without a bit of planning ahead of time. It's absolutely possible to acquire such deficiencies, but generally also avoidable with a bit of research and mindfulness about what one's eating day-to-day. Also the books are written within the context of generally accepted, science-based dietetics principles: certain variations of the vegan diet (aka 'plant-based diet') advise macronutrient ratios outside of the AMDR or those recommended by the WHO/FAO (typically, a macronutrient distribution that's extremely low in fat and protein) or promote things like a very high intake of raw foods, both of which can be very difficult for certain individuals to follow and are unnecessary for ethical vegans -- i e, those who simply wish to minimize as much as practical and possible their use of animals.