Veganism
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And you asking me to show you things shows you are too lazy to use google. In the age of the internet only the laziest of people ask other people to look stuff up for them.
No. You make a claim, it's up to you to have the sources to back it up. Name calling because you were asked to cite YOUR source (as the person making the claim) is inappropriate.0 -
Vegan is wrong, logically.
If killing an animal for sustenance is bad, there would be no food chain, life would cease to exists. If all animals were herbivores, the planet would be out of balance (carbon dioxide, overgrazing, overpopulation without modern agriculture) and life would cease to exist.
In my opinion, anyone who is vegan is doing it to make them feel better about themselves. I don't care what they do, but that is my opinion.
Also, any studies into cancer with plant-based diets would be fundamentally flawed. L2science.0 -
From the vegan society 'Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.'Agreed, but where does it start and stop? If one is willing to use a product for one thing but not the other, does it beg the question about consistency?
Just spitballing here. Obviously, if we were all on good well water supplies, it wouldn't even be an issue.
Abstaining from using water is not possible or practicable. Animal blood is also used in the manufacture of car tires, but for a lot of people, going without a car or affording a new set of tires from Michelin (one of the only companies that does not use animal blood) is neither practicable, nor possible.
It is a subjective line, but the degree to which it slides is still within a range. As an example, all meat and/or dairy products would never be vegan, unless someone were on a desert island or something. Some people do try to make an argument for honey, insects and bivalves, as the respective animals don't possess a central nervous system, but that's about as far as I've ever seen the 'line' slide, and even then, such a viewpoint is extremely uncommon.0 -
I happen to use isinglass in filtering my beer, irish moss sometimes too. Effective.
Now what about foodstuffs were animal contribution is part of the manufacturing process, such as chocolate?
All chocolate has bug bits in it. Or are bugs allowed for vegans?0 -
Vegan is wrong, logically.
If killing an animal for sustenance is bad, there would be no food chain, life would cease to exists. If all animals were herbivores, the planet would be out of balance (carbon dioxide, overgrazing, overpopulation without modern agriculture) and life would cease to exist.
In my opinion, anyone who is vegan is doing it to make them feel better about themselves. I don't care what they do, but that is my opinion.
Also, any studies into cancer with plant-based diets would be fundamentally flawed. L2science.
For the record, I am indifferent to your comment, but I will say this....it made me laugh.
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PRO Veganism
...
2. Food safety
Foods filled with pesticides, dairy, gluten, flour, processed sugar, toxic food combinations, acidic animal products, often full of steroids and hormones have been proven to be detrimental to our health. ...
You know pesticides, gluten, flour, and processed sugar have nothing at all to do with eating meat, right?
In fact, most food scares I've seen recently have been tainted vegetables, including organic vegetables. Sprouts in particular are prone to contamination.
If you're vegan for food safety reasons, you're either growing it yourself or you're deluded.0 -
From the vegan society 'Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.'Agreed, but where does it start and stop? If one is willing to use a product for one thing but not the other, does it beg the question about consistency?
Just spitballing here. Obviously, if we were all on good well water supplies, it wouldn't even be an issue.
Abstaining from using water is not possible or practicable. Animal blood is also used in the manufacture of car tires, but for a lot of people, going without a car or affording a new set of tires from Michelin (one of the only companies that does not use animal blood) is neither practicable, nor possible.
It is a subjective line, but the degree to which it slides is still within a range. As an example, all meat and/or dairy products would never be vegan, unless someone were on a desert island or something. Some people do try to make an argument for honey, insects and bivalves, as the respective animals don't possess a central nervous system, but that's about as far as I've ever seen the 'line' slide, and even then, such a viewpoint is extremely uncommon.
"all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to"
Interesting. I hunt, fish, and gather. Assumably since my goal is to ingest, it is exploitation, yes? Cruelty? I avoid that, I'm very effective.
Honey would definitely be exploitation, but what about co-relationships, akin to kopi luwak coffee? (getting tangenty, this is interesting.)0 -
What is funny is what I get when I google "animal protein heart disease". The first link is to an article: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx talking about how vegans and vegetarians may be at an increased risk of heart disease and why that may be. Certainly, you would think the first result would be to something regarding the absolute proof that animal protein causes heart disease, not the opposite.
I'm not claiming that this is proof of any sort. I would need to read it and look at their sources. But, it certainly suggests the matter isn't nearly as "proven" as it was made to be.0 -
Not sure how all chocolate contains bug bits ...? I have bars of chocolate in my cabinent that are Certified Vegan [1] and that standard requires that animal products not intentionally be included in a product. If they're in there incidentally, like fly legs in peanut butter, and not intentionally included, then it wouldn't apply. Intentionally eating insects isn't usually considered vegan, but as I mentioned in an earlier reply, some have argued that they should be allowed because they lack a central nervous system (it's a minority viewpoint, however).I happen to use isinglass in filtering my beer, irish moss sometimes too. Effective.
Now what about foodstuffs were animal contribution is part of the manufacturing process, such as chocolate?
All chocolate has bug bits in it. Or are bugs allowed for vegans?
[1] http://vegan.org/certify/0 -
What is funny is what I get when I google "animal protein heart disease". The first link is to an article: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/10/29/why-are-vegetarians-at-risk-of-heart-disease.aspx talking about how vegans and vegetarians may be at an increased risk of heart disease and why that may be. Certainly, you would think the first result would be to something regarding the absolute proof that animal protein causes heart disease, not the opposite.
I'm not claiming that this is proof of any sort. I would need to read it and look at their sources. But, it certainly suggests the matter isn't nearly as "proven" as it was made to be.
Yah, take anything from mercola with a large pile of salt, on either side of whatever topic it's discussing.0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.0
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Well, people believe that doing something - abstaining as far as they can - is better than doing nothing. Of course it depends on whether you think that the treatment of animals in current American standard farming practices is wrong and/or whether you think slaughter for meat is wrong. If you don't have an issue, there's no reason to worry about it. If you do have an issue, you have to draw the line somewhere. Should vegans not take medicines in gelcaps or with a lactose filler, even when medically necessary and vegan versions are not available? Not to mention that the drugs were likely tested on animals in the past. People do the best they can because they believe it's better than doing nothing.
Chocolate raises an additional issue of course - slave labor. As does coffee. I've been having problems finding info on this, so if anyone has any - how do I find ethically OK chocolate and coffee - I'd love to know.0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?0 -
Yes, hunting, fishing, etc is considered as using an animal as a means to one's own end and is therefore not considered to be vegan."all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to"
Interesting. I hunt, fish, and gather. Assumably since my goal is to ingest, it is exploitation, yes? Cruelty? I avoid that, I'm very effective.
Honey would definitely be exploitation, but what about co-relationships, akin to kopi luwak coffee? (getting tangenty, this is interesting.)
Again, not an official spokesperson, but if the Kopi Luwak beans are being intentionally fed to an Asian palm civet and the defecated beans are being sold for a profit, it would fall under commodification, which is one of the other terms used to describe what veganism seeks to avoid (the other two being 'use' or 'exploitation') when unnecessary. Particularly if the civet is being confined an any way (I'm guessing that manufacturers of this coffee product are not allowing civets to roam free with no fencing, physical boundaries, etc); some sources seem to indicate that they're commonly relegated to battery cages.0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?
LOL, I know. But, I figured I would give it a solid try to find what he was talking about. It doesn't appear to exist. Who would have figured my sarcasm was justified. ;-)0 -
I have been poking around scholar.google.com with the keywords "animal protein" and keywords related to cancer and heart disease. I've seen a couple articles expressing findings of correlation between the amount eaten and risk. But, I have yet to find a single one demonstrating causality.
Cause it's not there. Don't you think if that poster had the information, he would be anxious to post it to "prove" everyone wrong?
LOL, I know. But, I figured I would give it a solid try to find what he was talking about. It doesn't appear to exist. Who would have figured my sarcasm was justified. ;-)
Sarcasm is usually justified on these boards
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At JoRocka,morality is the only pro to veganism
""this. There is no health reason to go full vegan.
I disagree completely. There are many health reasons to go vegan, but the two biggest are prevention-related. Veganism has been proven to effectively prevent heart disease and diabetes, and to reverse them in people who are afflicted with heart disease and diabetes. The Mediterranean diet comes close too. So I think it is WRONG to say there is no health reason to go full vegan.
Don't believe me? Google Dr. Esselstine and Dr. Lustig.
Rubbish.
It's a moral choice that extends WELL outside the bounds of food consumption.
Like I said: I could buy into (possibly) someone arguing those things for pescatarians or ovo-lacto- or vegetarians. Really I could. I would never BECOME any of those things- because I LOVE steak and bacon- but I could listen to a logical well thought out study and articles espousing the great benefits of being a vegetarian.
But being a vegan is a life style choice that has little to do with food itself. It extends- as I said- well outside food consumption alone.
If it was about food alone- you'd just be a vegetarian.
(PS- I'm REALLY happy to see some vegans here saying- meh- it's my choice ethically and I won't apologize for it- I think that's really spot on)0 -
Thank you, thank you, thank you ! Some people don't believe it's wrong to use animals, while others simply do. The fact that it's an open debate in philosophy indicates that there are well-reasoned arguments and intelligent individuals on both sides.Well, people believe that doing something - abstaining as far as they can - is better than doing nothing. Of course it depends on whether you think that the treatment of animals in current American standard farming practices is wrong and/or whether you think slaughter for meat is wrong. If you don't have an issue, there's no reason to worry about it. If you do have an issue, you have to draw the line somewhere. Should vegans not take medicines in gelcaps or with a lactose filler, even when medically necessary and vegan versions are not available? Not to mention that the drugs were likely tested on animals in the past. People do the best they can because they believe it's better than doing nothing.
Chocolate raises an additional issue of course - slave labor. As does coffee. I've been having problems finding info on this, so if anyone has any - how do I find ethically OK chocolate and coffee - I'd love to know.
The labor involved in coffee and chocolate are both issues. Are fair trade varieties available in your location ? I do have access to fair trade coffee here, and I'm kind of spoilt for choice when it comes to fair trade and Fair for Life chocolate, most varieties of which are also certified vegan. One brand I know of that makes the nature of the circumstances of their workers who create their chocolate very public is Madecasse. Their 80 % bar is very good, and has a stong, sharp taste at first, which is love !0 -
I also wish people who were this passionate about food/meat products were more that engaged over homeless people- orphans and illegal immigrant issues.0
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eat all the foodz0
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