Body Pump vs Lifting. Help!
Replies
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I have a bit of a giggle looking back at it now, but Body Pump was a turning point for me in terms of my fitness 'journey'. It is undoubtedly cardio, but it sparked an interest in learning the heavy compound lifts, and strength training in general. It also helped to speed along my weight loss and get me past the awful DOMS stage, which was my goal at the time.0
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I've taught the class as a sub. One doesn't need certification to teach a choreographed class that just requires music and a list sequence of the exercises to be done.I'm surprised someone certified to teach it by the company doesn't describe it like the company does.
http://www.lesmills.com/workouts/fitness-classes/bodypump/
I'm sorry but it sounds like opinion.
Resistance bands and soup cans are considered by ACSM to be suitable for strength/resistance. A scholarly study found BodyPump isn't cardio.
It's not like anyone is saying it's a replacement for heavy lifting for people who want to maximize hypertrophy and strength. I'm just saying it does easily qualify as resistance/strength training for the general population.
Realize one can start with 5lb dumbells, but it 5 years later they are still stuck at 5 lbs dumbells, then strength was more than likely not increased. Strength training is PROGRESSIVE (to a point), but one needs to increase resistance, not increase repetition. Also if you're going to use ACSM as a reference then here's what they say about repetitions for strength and endurance.http://www.acsm.org/docs/brochures/resistance-training.pdf
MUSCULAR STRENGTH- Load 60%-70% for novice of 1RM, 80%-100% of 1RM for medium to advanced. 1 to 3 sets 8-12 reps for novices, 1-8 reps for advanced
MUSCULAR ENDURANCE- Load lower than 70% of 1RM. 2 to 4 set of 10-25 reps.
So it's not just my opinion.
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Stronglifts 5x5, check it out0
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In Body Pump, you do make it harder over time. The tracks are long (too long) but they don't grow. You add plates to your bar just like in "pure" strength training.
I think it's just a semantics thing. Most authorities recommend we add resistance/strength training, not "pure lifting". BP easily qualifies.
Once you stop adding plates, it's cardio.
So, I agree, you could add some strength, for the first few weeks.
In answer to your later post, you can add strength and not muscle with heavy weights too - I think a hell of a lot of us are doing that ATM - eating at maintenance or deficit while lifting heavy.
OP the best exercise is something you enjoy. If you think you'll enjoy body pump, go for it. IMO you could gain strength in the first few weeks (and that could spur you on to lift heavy later!)0 -
Thanks for all of your informed responses guys! I only added Body Pump to my gym regime in order to be doing more/some 'resistance' training and I usually do spin, pilates, running and yoga. However, having read all your posts, I think I will embark upon the 5 x 5 stronglift program- if I can get past the intimidation of the hulks that live in the weights section.
As stupid as this sounds, I'm not too bothered about getting massively strong or ripped- I just want to trim down the inches and lose body fat. Obviously, I don't need arms the size of Popeye but getting rid of potential bingo wings wouldn't go amiss.
Just need to get over my fear and crack on. Bleurgh.0 -
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Yes it does qualify as strength and yes it does increase your strength if it has incremental difficulty. Don't listen to those who say it doesn't. If your goals don't include being a powerlifter or building large muscle mass, it's a perfectly good strength exercise as long as it fits your goals.
There are many types of strength. Actually endurance strength and speed strength are two of the best things you can do for your body if your goal is general performance in any sport save power lifting. Strength training =/= weight training. Weight training is just a narrowed down category of strength in general.
It's just like saying staying in the 8-12 rip range is not real strength because the main goal is to build muscle, not strength, and that only the 1-3 rip range is "real strength". Those who do 8-12 and see the plates piling will beg to differ.0 -
Thanks for all of your informed responses guys! I only added Body Pump to my gym regime in order to be doing more/some 'resistance' training and I usually do spin, pilates, running and yoga. However, having read all your posts, I think I will embark upon the 5 x 5 stronglift program- if I can get past the intimidation of the hulks that live in the weights section.
As stupid as this sounds, I'm not too bothered about getting massively strong or ripped- I just want to trim down the inches and lose body fat. Obviously, I don't need arms the size of Popeye but getting rid of potential bingo wings wouldn't go amiss.
Just need to get over my fear and crack on. Bleurgh.
I wouldn't worry about getting popeye arms...I've been lifting for a year and they aren't big yet.0 -
In Body Pump, you do make it harder over time. The tracks are long (too long) but they don't grow. You add plates to your bar just like in "pure" strength training.
I think it's just a semantics thing. Most authorities recommend we add resistance/strength training, not "pure lifting". BP easily qualifies.
Once you stop adding plates, it's cardio.
So, I agree, you could add some strength, for the first few weeks.
In answer to your later post, you can add strength and not muscle with heavy weights too - I think a hell of a lot of us are doing that ATM - eating at maintenance or deficit while lifting heavy.
OP the best exercise is something you enjoy. If you think you'll enjoy body pump, go for it. IMO you could gain strength in the first few weeks (and that could spur you on to lift heavy later!)
Except there is nothing about body pump that says you have to stop adding plates. It isn't like they're going to run out. Some of the guys in my class are lifting some pretty big weights.
I have been doing it for two to three months once a week and am still seeing gains in strength and muscle definition (more so in my upper body than lower, mainly because I didn't have much of any strength/muscle up top--I'm a serious pear). I go to failure and have slowly increased my weights along the way. Could I have made quicker gains doing stronglifts 3 times a week? Most certainly. Would I have enjoyed it and stuck with it? Doubtful. Right now I enjoy it and it fits my schedule and I am happy with the results. When I stop getting results, I might consider something else.
I don't want to hijack this thread, but I have to add this: I completely don't understand what the difference is between something like body pump and crossfit. I guess crossfit can be more intense, but it seems pretty similarly cardio-ish to me. Judging from the pics I see of serious crossfitters, they don't have any trouble building muscle.0 -
If it's an actual BodyPump class and not a knock-off, I think you do need certified from the company that trademarked the name. Not that it matters to if it's strength or cardio but if some are referring to knock-offs, who knows what goes on in the class itself.]I've taught the class as a sub. One doesn't need certification to teach a choreographed class that just requires music and a list sequence of the exercises to be done.
You can't add plates to a soup can or a resistance band or do % of 1RM in under 25 reps but they are considered resistance training.
So for all the senior women out there doing little 5-7 lb. dumbbell workouts for 10 years at the senior center, that's not resistance, either? All those workouts exist because no one realizes they're not good for retaining LBM and bone mass?
Crossfit gets less "It's just cardio" ridicule because it's got sandbags and pull-up bars and heavier plates and is a 'manly' class, unlike BodyPump.0 -
If it's an actual BodyPump class and not a knock-off, I think you do need certified from the company that trademarked the name. Not that it matters to if it's strength or cardio but if some are referring to knock-offs, who knows what goes on in the class itself.]I've taught the class as a sub. One doesn't need certification to teach a choreographed class that just requires music and a list sequence of the exercises to be done.
You can't add plates to a soup can or a resistance band or do % of 1RM in under 25 reps but they are considered resistance training.
So for all the senior women out there doing little 5-7 lb. dumbbell workouts for 10 years at the senior center, that's not resistance, either? All those workouts exist because no one realizes they're not good for retaining LBM and bone mass?
Crossfit gets less "It's just cardio" ridicule because it's got sandbags and pull-up bars and heavier plates and is a 'manly' class, unlike BodyPump.
Resistance training yes, strength training no! Not all resistance training is strength training even though all strength training is resistance training. Resistance training includes strength training among other things!0 -
Given the OP's question, I think that what is the general rec for (strength/resistance/weights/pick your word) is what she's asking about. And I think if soup cans, bands and gardening qualify, BodyPump does. :flowerforyou:
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/phys/recommend.html
"Muscle-strengthening activities that are moderate or vigorous intensity should be included 2 or more days a week. These activities should work all of the major muscle groups (legs, hips, back, chest, abdomen, shoulders, and arms). Examples include lifting weights, working with resistance bands, and doing situps and pushups, yoga, and heavy gardening."0 -
I'm surprised someone certified to teach it by the company doesn't describe it like the company does.
http://www.lesmills.com/workouts/fitness-classes/bodypump/
It's called "good marketing", companies will stretch the truth as far as they can to make somebody interested. Make no mistake about it, this is first and foremost a cardio class. If you want something similar that has more strength benefit, it's called CrossFit.0 -
"Muscle-strengthening activities that are moderate or vigorous intensity should be included 2 or more days a week.
First, this is not a scholarly piece of research and do you really trust our government to make health recommendations? Make sure to read these quotes in context as well. Moderate to Vigorous intensity is still a considerably larger load. In order to hit 20+ reps for an extended period of time in something like Body Pump, you're not using anymore than 30% to 40% of your 1RM at MOST; that's not moderate or vigourous; that's borderline rehab or corrective work. Heck, those are loads I'll use during a deload week. Get to around 60%+ of your 1RM and now you're more in-line with moderate to vigorous.0 -
The OP asked if it'd be enough to check off the general recommendation to add strength/conditioning for general health. I can pull up other sources of 'general recommendations'. Here's Mayo Clinic's:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/fitness/basics/strength-training/hlv-20049447
I already posted ACSM's.
A general recommendation isn't a scholarly article.
I guess it's in the interpretation of the question.0 -
if I can get past the intimidation of the hulks that live in the weights section.
those are most often the nicest people in a gym. seriously.for some, initially soup cans will work- ...
But for none Body Pump will?
no- it'll work exactly the same as I said it would for body pump- you'll get something out of it when you first start if you haven't been doing ANYTHING- yes you're going to get stronger- you're going to get strong enough to lift that 10 pound weighted foam bar for 45 minutes. And get your heart pumping.
And that's it- you'll only get good at doing that- you'll get better at doing that- and tha'ts it- you'll cease to get stronger.
Same with soup cans.
Same with body pump
Same with body attack or whatever it's called.
Same principle applies to ANY class. Including cross fit. Yes- when you've been doing NOTHING- you will get stronger- and then after a while- you stop getting stronger because the structure of the environment does not allow you to successfully and progressive add more resistance.
Anything in a class- or DVD you do at home without added levels of difficulty in terms of progression will cease to get you strength gains. Period.0 -
It wasn't a "knock off class". The regular instructor is a certified BP instructor. It's not a difficult class to do with instruction (I've been a group fitness instructor for 16 years) especially if it's all laid out on paper and you get the music lent to you for the choreography.
If it's an actual BodyPump class and not a knock-off, I think you do need certified from the company that trademarked the name. Not that it matters to if it's strength or cardio but if some are referring to knock-offs, who knows what goes on in the class itself.I've taught the class as a sub. One doesn't need certification to teach a choreographed class that just requires music and a list sequence of the exercises to be done.
You can't add plates to a soup can or a resistance band or do % of 1RM in under 25 reps but they are considered resistance training.
So for all the senior women out there doing little 5-7 lb. dumbbell workouts for 10 years at the senior center, that's not resistance, either? All those workouts exist because no one realizes they're not good for retaining LBM and bone mass?
Crossfit gets less "It's just cardio" ridicule because it's got sandbags and pull-up bars and heavier plates and is a 'manly' class, unlike BodyPump.
Now, now, if you're going to insist that BP is "strength" training, don't tangent off on the seniors who do "resistance" training. We were specifically debating about BP being a "strength" program and even your source of ACSM doesn't support that. Resistance training yes, but that's a far cry from saying BP is "strength" training.
Working in a hospital gym myself, a great number of clients are seniors. And we refer to it here as "resistance" training for them.
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I've taught the class as a sub. One doesn't need certification to teach a choreographed class that just requires music and a list sequence of the exercises to be done.I'm surprised someone certified to teach it by the company doesn't describe it like the company does.
http://www.lesmills.com/workouts/fitness-classes/bodypump/
I'm sorry but it sounds like opinion.
Resistance bands and soup cans are considered by ACSM to be suitable for strength/resistance. A scholarly study found BodyPump isn't cardio.
It's not like anyone is saying it's a replacement for heavy lifting for people who want to maximize hypertrophy and strength. I'm just saying it does easily qualify as resistance/strength training for the general population.
Realize one can start with 5lb dumbells, but it 5 years later they are still stuck at 5 lbs dumbells, then strength was more than likely not increased. Strength training is PROGRESSIVE (to a point), but one needs to increase resistance, not increase repetition. Also if you're going to use ACSM as a reference then here's what they say about repetitions for strength and endurance.http://www.acsm.org/docs/brochures/resistance-training.pdf
MUSCULAR STRENGTH- Load 60%-70% for novice of 1RM, 80%-100% of 1RM for medium to advanced. 1 to 3 sets 8-12 reps for novices, 1-8 reps for advanced
MUSCULAR ENDURANCE- Load lower than 70% of 1RM. 2 to 4 set of 10-25 reps.
So it's not just my opinion.
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Okay, so I decided to entertain the Les Mills site. Here are their claims and since I'm a MS student in this subject-matter; I'm looking at this from a purely academic standpoint and not consider my personal style of strength training.
Claim: BODYPUMP™ is for anyone looking to get lean, toned and fit – fast.
Using light to moderate weights with lots of repetition, BODYPUMP™ gives you a total body workout. It will burn up to 590 calories*. Instructors will coach you through the scientifically proven moves and techniques pumping out encouragement, motivation and great music – helping you achieve much more than on your own!
You’ll leave the class feeling challenged and motivated, ready to come back for more.
How can they claim you can burn up to 590 calories? They should at least post the range in-which they took this mean from. "Scientifically proven moves..." I can only imagine that they're talking about things like the squat, however; most of the science around the squat is done in ranges that are far heavier used by Body Pump.
Claim: THE SCIENCE OF BODYPUMP™
This program is based on THE REP EFFECT, a proven formula that exhausts muscles using light weights, while performing high repetitions – this is the secret to developing lean, athletic muscle.
The "Rep Effect"?? What the hell is that? I searched it through my universities on-line library and there's no such thing; it's a clever marketing ploy by Less Mills. When you Google it for the exact phrase, the only thing that comes up is Les Mills.
Athletic Muscle... Athletes, at least Team Sport Athletes, do not train in this low of a range unless they're rehabbing or doing corrective exercises and even thing I believe corrective exercise loads can be heavier. Athletes depend on Speed and Power which is developed from sub-maximal to maximal loads and explosive movements, which Body Pump does not do. False claim. You may look like an athlete but you will perform far from it.
Claim: BENEFITS This full-body workout will burn calories, shape and tone your entire body, increase core strength and improve bone health.
Any challenging exercise will burn calories, big damn deal. Toning is more a factor of diet than exercise, so let's continue to misinform the public?
Bottom-line:
- Body Pump is not strength training, Body Pump is more along the lines of aerobic cardio
- Anybody that has been lazy up until this point (not implying this towards the OP or anybody here) and does Body Pump will see fairly significant improvement I would imagine.
- Most importantly... If the OP enjoys this type of exercise and it will keep her motivated then she should DO it. But, as I mentioned earlier; remember what this type of training is and its limitations.0 -
From many classes I've seen and done, the majority of participants AREN'T increasing difficulty by adding poundages. Lots of the same people who go, use the same weight resistance time after time for years.Yes it does qualify as strength and yes it does increase your strength if it has incremental difficulty. Don't listen to those who say it doesn't. If your goals don't include being a powerlifter or building large muscle mass, it's a perfectly good strength exercise as long as it fits your goals.
There are many types of strength. Actually endurance strength and speed strength are two of the best things you can do for your body if your goal is general performance in any sport save power lifting. Strength training =/= weight training. Weight training is just a narrowed down category of strength in general.
It's just like saying staying in the 8-12 rip range is not real strength because the main goal is to build muscle, not strength, and that only the 1-3 rip range is "real strength". Those who do 8-12 and see the plates piling will beg to differ.
And I'm sure I've seen more classes first hand, then many people who do BP maybe 2-3 times a week with the same people.
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From many classes I've seen and done, the majority of participants AREN'T increasing difficulty by adding poundages. Lots of the same people who go, use the same weight resistance time after time for years.Yes it does qualify as strength and yes it does increase your strength if it has incremental difficulty. Don't listen to those who say it doesn't. If your goals don't include being a powerlifter or building large muscle mass, it's a perfectly good strength exercise as long as it fits your goals.
There are many types of strength. Actually endurance strength and speed strength are two of the best things you can do for your body if your goal is general performance in any sport save power lifting. Strength training =/= weight training. Weight training is just a narrowed down category of strength in general.
It's just like saying staying in the 8-12 rip range is not real strength because the main goal is to build muscle, not strength, and that only the 1-3 rip range is "real strength". Those who do 8-12 and see the plates piling will beg to differ.
And I'm sure I've seen more classes first hand, then many people who do BP maybe 2-3 times a week with the same people.
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How can anybody argue with this guy? He's been training for years, TEACHES BP, and he's telling you what it's all about. LOL!!0 -
Do a CF WOD full bore and then a BP class with the same intensity. There's a difference trust me.I completely don't understand what the difference is between something like body pump and crossfit.
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Do a CF WOD full bore and then a BP class with the same intensity. There's a difference trust me.I completely don't understand what the difference is between something like body pump and crossfit.
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I would go as far as to say that a BootCamp class is more challenging or at the very minimum, as challenging as BP. CF is head-and-tails harder than BP.0 -
And a scholarly article that did a study on this exact question concluded BP is not cardio. So the opinion of a personal trainer vs. a scholarly article.
From many classes I've seen and done, the majority of participants AREN'T increasing difficulty by adding poundages. Lots of the same people who go, use the same weight resistance time after time for years.Yes it does qualify as strength and yes it does increase your strength if it has incremental difficulty. Don't listen to those who say it doesn't. If your goals don't include being a powerlifter or building large muscle mass, it's a perfectly good strength exercise as long as it fits your goals.
There are many types of strength. Actually endurance strength and speed strength are two of the best things you can do for your body if your goal is general performance in any sport save power lifting. Strength training =/= weight training. Weight training is just a narrowed down category of strength in general.
It's just like saying staying in the 8-12 rip range is not real strength because the main goal is to build muscle, not strength, and that only the 1-3 rip range is "real strength". Those who do 8-12 and see the plates piling will beg to differ.
And I'm sure I've seen more classes first hand, then many people who do BP maybe 2-3 times a week with the same people.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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How can anybody argue with this guy? He's been training for years, TEACHES BP, and he's telling you what it's all about. LOL!!
And the assumption that the OP would not increase her poundage.
And that she didn't mean 'resistance' and that that is a wholly different thing in the general rec from 'strength', even though the sources I posted use them interchangeably.0 -
And a scholarly article that did a study on this exact question concluded BP is not cardio. So the opinion of a personal trainer vs. a scholarly article.
From many classes I've seen and done, the majority of participants AREN'T increasing difficulty by adding poundages. Lots of the same people who go, use the same weight resistance time after time for years.Yes it does qualify as strength and yes it does increase your strength if it has incremental difficulty. Don't listen to those who say it doesn't. If your goals don't include being a powerlifter or building large muscle mass, it's a perfectly good strength exercise as long as it fits your goals.
There are many types of strength. Actually endurance strength and speed strength are two of the best things you can do for your body if your goal is general performance in any sport save power lifting. Strength training =/= weight training. Weight training is just a narrowed down category of strength in general.
It's just like saying staying in the 8-12 rip range is not real strength because the main goal is to build muscle, not strength, and that only the 1-3 rip range is "real strength". Those who do 8-12 and see the plates piling will beg to differ.
And I'm sure I've seen more classes first hand, then many people who do BP maybe 2-3 times a week with the same people.
A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
How can anybody argue with this guy? He's been training for years, TEACHES BP, and he's telling you what it's all about. LOL!!
And the assumption that the OP would not increase her poundage.
And that she didn't mean 'resistance' and that that is a wholly different thing in the general rec from 'strength', even though the sources I posted use them interchangeably.
Okay, let's be fair... Best case scenario, BP is in the realm of strength-endurance but even the variables used are a little beyond what's used for strength-endurance. What scholarly article? Not the one you just posted I'm assuming. Trust me, my professors would kick my *kitten* for saying that's a scholarly article; it's not a scholarly article.0 -
I'm trying to be indifferent here so I did a search for REAL scholarly articles and unfortunately the research is transcribed in Spanish but the abstract is in English and is pretty clear. I bolded key points.
DETERMINACIÓN DE PRÁCTICAS SALUDABLES EN PROGRAMAS DE COREOGRAFÍAS DE FITNESS Y AERÓBIC: DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION, LES MILLS Y BASE TRAINING.
Author: Juan-Llamas, Carmen1carmenjuanllamas@gmail.com
Source:Motricidad: European Journal of Human Movement Jun2013, Vol. 30, p85 18p.
This study makes a comparison among three sports programs used in classes of aerobics and fitness, in order to point out its advantages and disadvantages. Specifically, we compared the software Dance Dance Revolution (DDR), for doing physical activity on platforms of dance; Les Mills, offering routines already choreographed for classes; and Base Training, software with more than 125 scheduled classes. The instrument used for this purpose is known as EVESBEPRAH. It is a tool that evaluates sports programs to see if the actions they take can be considered «good practices» in health promotion. The article concludes with an assessment of each of these sports programs in order to advise managers of sports centres in their future choices. The results show a clear difference in scores between the programmes, since some were created with the idea of improving health in the sports clubs (Les Mills and Base Training) and others were designed to be applied in amusement machines (DDR), but his great success took a fast expansion to other areas, such as sports centres.
In-short, can it promote beneficial health? Yes. Is it aerobic exercise? Yes. Is it strength training? No.0 -
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/12000/Improvements_in_Metabolic_and_Neuromuscular.26.aspxWhat scholarly article? Not the one you just posted I'm assuming. Trust me, my professors would kick my *kitten* for saying that's a scholarly article; it's not a scholarly article.
I'll read the one you posted.
The OP says she's not even looking to increase her strength.0 -
I'm not sure what this shows. It doesn't seem to mention BodyPump. Les Mills has a lot of different class types.I'm trying to be indifferent here so I did a search for REAL scholarly articles and unfortunately the research is transcribed in Spanish but the abstract is in English and is pretty clear. I bolded key points.
DETERMINACIÓN DE PRÁCTICAS SALUDABLES EN PROGRAMAS DE COREOGRAFÍAS DE FITNESS Y AERÓBIC: DANCE DANCE REVOLUTION, LES MILLS Y BASE TRAINING.
Author: Juan-Llamas, Carmen1carmenjuanllamas@gmail.com
Source:Motricidad: European Journal of Human Movement Jun2013, Vol. 30, p85 18p.
This study makes a comparison among three sports programs used in classes of aerobics and fitness, in order to point out its advantages and disadvantages. Specifically, we compared the software Dance Dance Revolution (DDR), for doing physical activity on platforms of dance; Les Mills, offering routines already choreographed for classes; and Base Training, software with more than 125 scheduled classes. The instrument used for this purpose is known as EVESBEPRAH. It is a tool that evaluates sports programs to see if the actions they take can be considered «good practices» in health promotion. The article concludes with an assessment of each of these sports programs in order to advise managers of sports centres in their future choices. The results show a clear difference in scores between the programmes, since some were created with the idea of improving health in the sports clubs (Les Mills and Base Training) and others were designed to be applied in amusement machines (DDR), but his great success took a fast expansion to other areas, such as sports centres.
In-short, can it promote beneficial health? Yes. Is it aerobic exercise? Yes. Is it strength training? No.0 -
wow you're really determined to just keep on keeping on.0
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It's just the point. Anything 'girlie' or not low rep/high weight is demonized here. BP is not cardio and it's a great option for someone with the OP's goals.
Low rep is terrific. It's a great choice. It's not the only thing with any value.0
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