An argument with a person in shape = no way to win
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I'm just wondering where he got the 4 hour fat storing mode idea from. I'm sure the u.s. Military would be interested in that.
Hey Brad. Nice try. You are just another person trying to use extreme examples to prove a point that isn't true. Who said 3000 calories of candy? Please show me one person. Your argument is weak. Your example is weak. Then you want to try to touch on the subject of TEF when you probably don't know enough about it.I recently got into an argument with my co-worker. He is young, 27, and in good shape. He basically eats rabbit food, which is fine. We got into a discussion and he started telling me that when you eat is more important than what you eat and the calories. He told me you should never eat before going to bed.(which has been dis-proven) Then he told me that intermittent fasting is bad because your metabolism slows to a halt throughout the day (which also has been greatly exaggerated)
I then went on my rant and explained to him that a calorie is a calorie and as long as you create a deficit each day, you are fine. I then asked him if I ate 3000 calories all day and stopped eating after 8pm vs 3000 calories but 1000 of it was right before going to bed he told me the latter is a lot worse.
I tried to explain to him that some things work differently for some people, and eating breakfast makes me hungry all day long. I tried to explain that weight loss is about simple math, calories in, calories out. etc. But as I was arguing both him and my other co-worker started looking at me funny. I knew what was going on.
You see, I am fat, and I could not possibly win this argument UNTIL I lose the weight right?
Just as my mind was thinking this, he said "then prove it."
Anyone else run into a no win situation like this? I mean, technically, the proof is right there, I am fat, he is thin. And even though he is thin for other reasons, it just is pointless to argue this.
I personally don't agree that a calorie is calorie- 3000 calories of veggies will be better for you then 3000 calories in candy. So no!, a calorie isn't a calorie. You also made mention that everyone is different... very true everyone is different which more so supports the fact that a calorie is not calorie. 100 calories in carbs has a different effect/reaction on your body than 100 calories of protein same goes with fats... again a calorie isn't a calorie!
I hate IIFYM if you can't tell, you know IIFYM started on bodybuilding.com as a guys common answer to stupid questions ... now it's science??? I don't think so. It works more so because people are in a deficit who've never dieted but it's not really healthy or good IMO.
You should be eating breakfast, your hungry all day because your metabolism is more active.(eat more protein at breakfast could be what you eat that is making you feel hungry, protein takes longer to digest [again a calorie isn't a calorie]) Eating right before bed and depending on what it is will or can be stored as fat, You know carbs cause your body to enter into a storage mode where everything you eat for roughly 4 hours will be stored as fat?
Brad
You Brad, are just another member making a weak argument with extreme examples that aren't the slightest realistic.
Weak.
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And yet you made this priceless statement in the sugar thread: "Sugar is the worst thing on the planet for you"
Weird.
How is that weird? Please explain. Yes, I think sugar is awful for you. I think sugar makes people more hungry and makes you crave, you know, more calories...
Please refer to my ticker for a response to your statement.0 -
I would love to see this post, since I studied this extensively in college.
I never said that your body creates more calories from fructose. I said certain foods transport less calories to the liver than others. Overall the rule is true, calories in vs calories out. If you consume a true calorie deficit, then it doesn't matter if 20% hits the liver or 100%. But no, a calorie is not a calorie and calorie source does matter when it comes to how much weight you lose (or gain).
And 100 calories IS significant. Is it 100 calories a day? A year? A meal?A calorie is a calorie outside of the human body. Once you consume it the metabolic pathways are different depending on the calorie source. Eating 3500 calories of fructose will result in more weight gain than 3500 calories from protein. The energy expended just to break down the amino acids in protein is greater than the energy needed to metabolize fructose.
Your body does not treat all calories equally, so let me amend that.... A calorie is not a calorie once it's consumed.What is rabbit food? Fresh fruits and veggies?
If you wanted to argue with me that a calorie is a calorie, then I would take issue as well. Since I don't think it is. And yes, I have studied this and know a little ( a lot) about biochemistry. In general, yes, you should consume less calories than you expend. But not all calories are created equal. If you consume 100 calories from protein, only 80-70 calories actually hit your liver. If you eat 100 calories from fat or carbs, 85-95 calories will enter the liver to be metabolized. The more calories that enter the liver equals more fat cells.
Nearly 100% of calories from fructose enters the liver! while only 20% of calories from glucose enters the liver.
A calorie is not a calorie.
Calories in vs calories out... Yes. But depending on where you get your calories it may or may not work out very well for you.
Actually according to Webster's dictionary a calorie...
CALORIE
2
b : an amount of food having an energy-producing value of one large calorie
really is just that...a calorie.
CALORIE
2
b : an amount of food having an energy-producing value of one large calorie
Some months back we had a thread where someone posted a study that, well, studied that. the difference in metabolic energy expenditure of eating plain protein and plain sugar (which is a stupid and unrealistic comparison to begin with as people like to point out rightfully so) is basically insignificant and came out to less than 100 calories difference.
Same with the amount of calories your body can use from another study. Same person, different diets with different macro ratios, no difference in the weight loss.
Those metabolic differences are either so small they're insignificant, or I guess the people writing the food labels already calculate that in when they write the calories on the package.
Either way, fact is your body cannot take more energy out of a food than is inside, only less under circumstances.0 -
I can see why your coworker get so frustrated debating with you. So frustrated that he started a thread about you on MFP.
None of my co workers use MFP. What in God's name are you talking about?0 -
In to learn about how a unit of measurement is not a unit of measurement.0
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Please refer to my ticker for a response to your statement.
Isn't that a given, you know, on the internet, opinions, etc?
It is of my opinion that sugar makes ME hungry.
Everyone happy now?0 -
In to learn about how a unit of measurement is not a unit of measurement.
yeah...me too...must be part of that "new math"...0 -
In to learn about how a unit of measurement is not a unit of measurement.
Nobody is arguing that. What's being argued is the mode of transportation of calories, and where those calories end up and the net amount.0 -
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Gonna be hard to find since it's months old and we get about a dozen threads about the same topics weekly.I would love to see this post, since I studied this extensively in college.
I never said that your body creates more calories from fructose. I said certain foods transport less calories to the liver than others. Overall the rule is true, calories in vs calories out. If you consume a true calorie deficit, then it doesn't matter if 20% hits the liver or 100%. But no, a calorie is not a calorie and calorie source does matter when it comes to how much weight you lose (or gain).
And 100 calories IS significant. Is it 100 calories a day? A year? A meal?A calorie is a calorie outside of the human body. Once you consume it the metabolic pathways are different depending on the calorie source. Eating 3500 calories of fructose will result in more weight gain than 3500 calories from protein. The energy expended just to break down the amino acids in protein is greater than the energy needed to metabolize fructose.
Your body does not treat all calories equally, so let me amend that.... A calorie is not a calorie once it's consumed.What is rabbit food? Fresh fruits and veggies?
If you wanted to argue with me that a calorie is a calorie, then I would take issue as well. Since I don't think it is. And yes, I have studied this and know a little ( a lot) about biochemistry. In general, yes, you should consume less calories than you expend. But not all calories are created equal. If you consume 100 calories from protein, only 80-70 calories actually hit your liver. If you eat 100 calories from fat or carbs, 85-95 calories will enter the liver to be metabolized. The more calories that enter the liver equals more fat cells.
Nearly 100% of calories from fructose enters the liver! while only 20% of calories from glucose enters the liver.
A calorie is not a calorie.
Calories in vs calories out... Yes. But depending on where you get your calories it may or may not work out very well for you.
Actually according to Webster's dictionary a calorie...
CALORIE
2
b : an amount of food having an energy-producing value of one large calorie
really is just that...a calorie.
CALORIE
2
b : an amount of food having an energy-producing value of one large calorie
Some months back we had a thread where someone posted a study that, well, studied that. the difference in metabolic energy expenditure of eating plain protein and plain sugar (which is a stupid and unrealistic comparison to begin with as people like to point out rightfully so) is basically insignificant and came out to less than 100 calories difference.
Same with the amount of calories your body can use from another study. Same person, different diets with different macro ratios, no difference in the weight loss.
Those metabolic differences are either so small they're insignificant, or I guess the people writing the food labels already calculate that in when they write the calories on the package.
Either way, fact is your body cannot take more energy out of a food than is inside, only less under circumstances.
But in the end, since you will always get a little less calories than are in the food, then for weight loss it really doesn't matter. Take the numbers that are on the package and you're guaranteed to get less than that, no matter what they're made up of. Although I have to say I would be surprised if the numbers from the FDA weren't normalized to account for that if it can actually be as low as 20% in fructose.0 -
I've had similar arguments with many people from every walk of life when it comes to fitness/diet. My argument ender is usual something like "I'm glad that works for you. What has worked for me is eating 80% of my calories between 5pm and 2am. I've lost 75 lbs so far, lowered my blood pressure, etc. But that's just what works for my body, and that's what matters the most to me."0
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Hmmm....seems like you know it all huh. Even what your coworkers do and think. Now I really don't blame him for starting that thread.
I sent you a private message. I think you are trying to troll me here.0 -
Most diet myths spring from the fact that people like broad strategies because they're simple. Counting calories can be a pain the butt. Telling someone just to avoid potatoes, bread, or not to eat after 6pm appeals to people's need for simplicity.
Actually, my observation is that people have a deeply rooted need to make it more complex than it really needs to be.
1) Find a way to make sure you meet your nutritional needs.
That's it.
But, no. They've got to deny themselves this, and starve themselves at that time, and exercise like hamsters on a wheel and make it so unsustainable that they can't be blamed for not being naturally thin.0 -
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Oh forget it.Hmmm....seems like you know it all huh. Even what your coworkers do and think. Now I really don't blame him for starting that thread.
I sent you a private message. I think you are trying to troll me here.
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I go to the gym for an hour and a half and this thread degrades into pseudoscience and utter nonsense. Rather then reply to all the derp comments that were made I'll simply summerize:
A calorie is a unit of measurement. There are not different kinds of calories. That's like saying there are different kinds of inches.
Comparing eating 3000 calories of vegetables and 3000 calories of candy is asinine. No one lives either of those senarios. Neither scenario is healthy, and both would cause you to have certain deficiencies. Not to mention, it would be very very very hard to actually consume 3000 calories of vegetables in a day.
Of course different macro nutrients affect the body differently. No one is saying otherwise and saying calories are calories does not mean that macros are macros. Separate statements, separate issues. Macros should also be taken into consideration when dieting to maximize fat loss, minimize losses to lean mass, and control overall health. This does not include banning foods.
Nutrient timing and or eating breakfast is largely irrelevant for most people especially if your goal is simple weight loss/muscle retention. Sure endurance athletes and those who compete on a high level need to worry about nutrient timing. I would bet that's less then 1% of the folks here though. For the majority here, eating whenever is most convenient and in whatever manner will help you stick to your goals is going to be best. The will vary tremendously from person to person.
Processing does not take away all the nutrition from foods. The calcium in ice cream still counts. Apples baked in a pie are still apples. Eating processed foods in moderation will not negatively impact ones health. This is why hitting your calorie and macro goals for the day should be the number 1 most important thing you do when trying to lose weight. Unless you have no appetite at all (and if that's the case odds are you don't need to lose weight), you will naturally have to eat mostly whole foods. If you consume mostly processed foods high in refined sugar, you'll hit your calorie goals LONG before you become satiated. It's all about finding balance.0 -
Let's say you have a bank account and two checks to deposit. One check is from out of state and the bank says they have to charge a fee to deposit it. Protein would be like the out of state check because of TEF.A calorie is a calorie outside of the human body. Once you consume it the metabolic pathways are different depending on the calorie source. Eating 3500 calories of fructose will result in more weight gain than 3500 calories from protein. The energy expended just to break down the amino acids in protein is greater than the energy needed to metabolize fructose.
Your body does not treat all calories equally, so let me amend that.... A calorie is not a calorie once it's consumed.
But a dollar is still a a dollar and a calorie is still a calorie. You're just talking about another expense (yes, calories OUT).0 -
In the Middle Ages most people were thin. I don't know if they ate just before going to bed, but I do know most people in the Middle Ages had intestinal parasites. To stop future arguments and somewhat tongue in cheek, have you asked him if he's been tested? They are on the increase I believe. That should cause room for pause as you walk away. I'm just an old meanie sigh.I recently got into an argument with my co-worker. He is young, 27, and in good shape. He basically eats rabbit food, which is fine. We got into a discussion and he started telling me that when you eat is more important than what you eat and the calories. He told me you should never eat before going to bed.(which has been dis-proven) Then he told me that intermittent fasting is bad because your metabolism slows to a halt throughout the day (which also has been greatly exaggerated)
I then went on my rant and explained to him that a calorie is a calorie and as long as you create a deficit each day, you are fine. I then asked him if I ate 3000 calories all day and stopped eating after 8pm vs 3000 calories but 1000 of it was right before going to bed he told me the latter is a lot worse.
I tried to explain to him that some things work differently for some people, and eating breakfast makes me hungry all day long. I tried to explain that weight loss is about simple math, calories in, calories out. etc. But as I was arguing both him and my other co-worker started looking at me funny. I knew what was going on.
You see, I am fat, and I could not possibly win this argument UNTIL I lose the weight right?
Just as my mind was thinking this, he said "then prove it."
Anyone else run into a no win situation like this? I mean, technically, the proof is right there, I am fat, he is thin. And even though he is thin for other reasons, it just is pointless to argue this.
Hey intestinal parasites aren't all bad: http://www.wormtherapy.com/0 -
Stick with what works for you, and don't let your food choices become a topic of discussion.
Personally, I'm not dieting. I'm choosing to be mindful about what I eat. In the short term, that includes considerable awareness of portion control and calories per portion; in the longer term, I'm hoping those will be less of an issue (though I expect I will need to weigh/measure portions most of the rest of my life).
Overall, I've lost 20 pounds. This past weekend, I was mindfully indulgent (filet mignon, ice cream, cheesecake, almond bark, chicken salad with mayonnaise), and over the course of 4 days, re-gained 1 pound. Since I've gained more than that in daily weigh-in fluctuations, I'm calling it a no harm no foul weekend.
For me, the short and simple mantra of "real food, processed as little as possible" works pretty well. It's hard to eat beyond my calorie burn if I am eating apples and bell peppers and cucumbers (even if I eat the former with cheese and the latter with hummus).0 -
That type of argument is, unfortunately, "un-winnable." It's sad that some people are convinced that an overweight person can't possibly be smart enough to research the science for themselves and make their own sound choices, and that all "in shape" people are the only source of "truth."
Sigh, I am one to just say, nicely and without sarcastic affect, "Thank you for taking interest in my well-being. That means a lot. I will take your advice under consideration," and continue on with yourself.
great way to end that conversation. Unfortunately sometimes everyone is an expert on weight loss- especially skinny in shape people..lol Not everyone realizes there is not one size fits all to losing weight0 -
...and he's 27. I also was never wrong at 27.
Ha! - This.0 -
Short of presenting him with a 20 page paper listing your assertions with peer-reviewed academic references to support your point and credible discrediting of questionable counter-studies, you are right--no win.
Ever see the movie "Paul"? You know that bit about religious zealots--"there's just no reasoning with these people!"--same thing applies to this case.0 -
So here's the thing, I did everything the exact opposite of what he says. I not only lost all the weight but have kept it off for over 7 years now. A calorie is a calorie, it can't tell time
I figure that as long as someone is eating healthy and creating the deficit needed to lose weight who cares when they eat. Weight loss is not hard but over thinking it will certainly make it that way! 0 -
A calorie is a calorie outside of the human body. Once you consume it the metabolic pathways are different depending on the calorie source. Eating 3500 calories of fructose will result in more weight gain than 3500 calories from protein. The energy expended just to break down the amino acids in protein is greater than the energy needed to metabolize fructose.
It is still a calorie inside the body, but changes in diet composition can change energy expenditure.0 -
I don't take financial advice from poor people, either.0
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You're 44. The coworker is 27, and still too young to realize the toll that age and office work and stress can take in the form of weight gain. Tell him to come talk to you in 17 years.0
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You're 44. The coworker is 27, and still too young to realize the toll that age and office work and stress can take in the form of weight gain. Tell him to come talk to you in 17 years.
^ That's just as bad as suggesting that someone who is overweight must be wrong and someone who is underweight must be right.0 -
That type of argument is, unfortunately, "un-winnable." It's sad that some people are convinced that an overweight person can't possibly be smart enough to research the science for themselves and make their own sound choices, and that all "in shape" people are the only source of "truth."
Sigh, I am one to just say, nicely and without sarcastic affect, "Thank you for taking interest in my well-being. That means a lot. I will take your advice under consideration," and continue on with yourself.
great way to end that conversation. Unfortunately sometimes everyone is an expert on weight loss- especially skinny in shape people..lol Not everyone realizes there is not one size fits all to losing weight
True, but if I had nothing else to go on, I would take the skinny person's advice on weight loss before I'd listen to the fat one.0 -
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Someone's physique is not necessarily indicative of whether or not they are correct about matters pertaining to fitness/nutrition. Neither is their age, assuming we're not talking about infants.
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