Moderation DOES NOT WORK for me

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

You've never tasted my pizza, silly boy.

I love that this is in reply to me saying pizza isn't PIZZA HUT. What a bizarre forum this is!!! when PIZZA HUT is the benchmark for pizza??!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't been on MFP for long, but I don't think I will ever understand people who get upset at those who enjoy eating vegetables, haha. It seems to really and truly upset some people. And I agree, Pizza Hut as a benchmark is bizarre. I think the country of Italy is crying right now. I'm in New York, and I feel all the nyc pizzerias crying right now. Jeez. I have to laugh. But, I mean, if someone likes Pizza Hut, cool.

...I'll go with handmade crust with lots of veggies because it's fun to make and veggies taste awesome.

I don't think it's that. It's the weird apoplectic thing that happens when someone mentions cauliflower crust. If it IS about an artisan pizza with veggies, then WOW this place is nuttier than I ever imagined.

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

You've never tasted my pizza, silly boy.

I love that this is in reply to me saying pizza isn't PIZZA HUT. What a bizarre forum this is!!! when PIZZA HUT is the benchmark for pizza??!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't been on MFP for long, but I don't think I will ever understand people who get upset at those who enjoy eating vegetables, haha. It seems to really and truly upset some people. And I agree, Pizza Hut as a benchmark is bizarre. I think the country of Italy is crying right now. I'm in New York, and I feel all the nyc pizzerias crying right now. Jeez. I have to laugh. But, I mean, if someone likes Pizza Hut, cool.

...I'll go with handmade crust with lots of veggies because it's fun to make and veggies taste awesome.

I don't think it's that. It's the weird apoplectic thing that happens when someone mentions cauliflower crust. If it IS about an artisan pizza with veggies, then WOW this place is nuttier than I ever imagined.

It's just amusing. It's like claiming intellect and talking about loosing wait.

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

You've never tasted my pizza, silly boy.

I love that this is in reply to me saying pizza isn't PIZZA HUT. What a bizarre forum this is!!! when PIZZA HUT is the benchmark for pizza??!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't been on MFP for long, but I don't think I will ever understand people who get upset at those who enjoy eating vegetables, haha. It seems to really and truly upset some people. And I agree, Pizza Hut as a benchmark is bizarre. I think the country of Italy is crying right now. I'm in New York, and I feel all the nyc pizzerias crying right now. Jeez. I have to laugh. But, I mean, if someone likes Pizza Hut, cool.

...I'll go with handmade crust with lots of veggies because it's fun to make and veggies taste awesome.

I don't think it's that. It's the weird apoplectic thing that happens when someone mentions cauliflower crust. If it IS about an artisan pizza with veggies, then WOW this place is nuttier than I ever imagined.

It's just amusing. It's like claiming intellect and talking about loosing wait.

okay.

I just cannot get on board with pretending that junk food is healthy if you also eat broccoli.

I don't think it makes sense to pretend that junk food is healthy. It's not. What is the point of pretending? I wish someone would just tell me THAT.

I don't go so far as to say the cookie is affirmatively healthy (I don't even want to focus on the Oreo since I don't really eat them so don't really know what's in them, so let's go back to my homemade cookie). I say that it's basically neutral. It has calories, which is fine if you have room in your diet, it has carbs/energy and some okay fat (I don't have a problem with butter, personally), but obviously there are more ideal sources of both if you are after some kind of health-related goal from that specific food, but it also doesn't have anything that I think will hurt me--I'm not scared of sugar in moderation or flour (even white flour) or butter, etc. Chocolate is fine with me too. So if it's neutral, but for the calories, I don't see the point of saying it's bad for you. It's not. It's only bad for you if eating it takes away from better things that should be in your diet or causes you to overeat.

In case it's not clear, I'm NOT saying you or anyone else should eat the cookie and not arguing. Just making sure my views on what makes for a healthy diet and why cookies are not BAD are set forth correctly. ;-)

I don't get the flower thing, lol. Do some people use it to be nice and others use it to be nasty? I don't know. Not sure what it means. I don't know how to do those things, either.

I just assumed everyone used it to show friendly intent, since sometimes tone is unclear. (Someone even emailed me once to complain about mine.) And I'm mostly interested in the exchange of ideas vs. argument, so I wanted to try to make that clear.

But you are right, there may be more to the flower thing than I've cottoned on to.

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

You've never tasted my pizza, silly boy.

I love that this is in reply to me saying pizza isn't PIZZA HUT. What a bizarre forum this is!!! when PIZZA HUT is the benchmark for pizza??!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I haven't been on MFP for long, but I don't think I will ever understand people who get upset at those who enjoy eating vegetables, haha. It seems to really and truly upset some people. And I agree, Pizza Hut as a benchmark is bizarre. I think the country of Italy is crying right now. I'm in New York, and I feel all the nyc pizzerias crying right now. Jeez. I have to laugh. But, I mean, if someone likes Pizza Hut, cool.

...I'll go with handmade crust with lots of veggies because it's fun to make and veggies taste awesome.

Who and where did someone say pizza hut was the benchmark?

When's the last time you went to a pizzeria in NYC and they had cauliflower pizza?

My childhood's pretty well-versed in nyc pizzeria. I thought it was about artisan pizza vs. Pizza Hut. I'll take handmade pizza over Pizza Hut any day. Traditional Italian pizza isn't as intense (intense meaning ridiculous amounts of cheese, etc) as American-style pizza. I didn't know we were talking about cauliflower though. I'd be open to trying it. I do like cauliflower.

Yes, manufactured food products *do* vary in calorie content. But the very tasty ones typically are high in calorie content.

We have very different taste preferences. None of my favorite high calorie foods come packaged from a supermarket. (Oh, okay, ice cream, but only because I haven't managed to remember what box in my storage closet I put the ice cream maker in.)

Mostly the horrible "processed" stuff I buy from the supermarket is stuff I chose to meet my nutritional goals, as well as my taste preferences. And I happen to think they are far tastier than most of the high calorie packaged stuff that don't really help with my goals. On the other hand, I can make a fabulous pie that IMNSHO tastes much better than similar items from the supermarket bakery, let alone whatever might be in the frozen food aisle. Now, I haven't lately, because I don't really need the temptation or the calories I'd end up eating--I get more than enough tasty treats without pointlessly adding to the temptation by baking, since I actually prefer savory cooking anyway--but that's NOT because I'm addicted to pie. I just like it, and don't weirdly confuse the two concepts.

What I was trying to say is that not everyone feels deprived when they say I'm not going to eat cake for the next X months. I don't really like to use myself as an example because I'm nothing special and I don't want to come across as pushing what works for me on other people, but by setting my carb macro where it is I've all but said no cake, no donuts, and so on for the last ~10 months. I'm exposed to donuts and pastries probably once every other week due to people bringing them into the office and honestly it doesn't bother me.

Maybe I'm making too fine a distinction, but I don't see setting your macros in a certain way as the same thing as making your diet about giving up

, because they are BAD. I see it as focusing on specific goals. That's why you won't find a post from me claiming low carb or paleo are inherently bad strategies. I think they work well for the right people. But that's because they are focused on positive ideas about how to eat, even when part of that (with paleo more so) is about not eating stuff. I don't see how what you are doing with your macros is much different than me starting this at 1250 calories (not there currently, for the record) and a firm idea of how I wanted to eat. It meant that there were lots of foods that didn't fit (like I said), but I didn't feel deprived since that was the result of my goals, not the focus. Making it all about NOT eating stuff (often this is proclaimed to be EVER, since they are BAD) is what seems to me likely to focus one's attention in a way it wouldn't otherwise be focused. Similarly, I'm not personally a fan of controlling calories and not changing one's diet but only eating less (although that too works for some, as I said before), since that also focuses on the deprivation aspect (eating less) and not the positive aspect (the great foods you are eating in reasonable quantities). That's why I said it makes more sense to focus on the positive things you are doing, not some list of restrictions. Indeed, it seems to me that people here are more often excited about cutting out "white foods" or whatever without first even figuring out what eating a healthy diet is or what nutrient dense foods they want to include. It's like being a vegetarian who hates vegetables (which of course is a thing). Oh, well. Anyway, I didn't say even elimination isn't sometimes a good strategy, if you look back. It's just the wrong focus, IMO.

I just cannot get on board with pretending that junk food is healthy if you also eat broccoli.

I don't think it makes sense to pretend that junk food is healthy. It's not. What is the point of pretending? I wish someone would just tell me THAT.

I don't go so far as to say the cookie is affirmatively healthy (I don't even want to focus on the Oreo since I don't really eat them so don't really know what's in them, so let's go back to my homemade cookie). I say that it's basically neutral. It has calories, which is fine if you have room in your diet, it has carbs/energy and some okay fat (I don't have a problem with butter, personally), but obviously there are more ideal sources of both if you are after some kind of health-related goal from that specific food, but it also doesn't have anything that I think will hurt me--I'm not scared of sugar in moderation or flour (even white flour) or butter, etc. Chocolate is fine with me too. So if it's neutral, but for the calories, I don't see the point of saying it's bad for you. It's not. It's only bad for you if eating it takes away from better things that should be in your diet or causes you to overeat.

In case it's not clear, I'm NOT saying you or anyone else should eat the cookie and not arguing. Just making sure my views on what makes for a healthy diet and why cookies are not BAD are set forth correctly. ;-)

I don't get the flower thing, lol. Do some people use it to be nice and others use it to be nasty? I don't know. Not sure what it means. I don't know how to do those things, either.

I just assumed everyone used it to show friendly intent, since sometimes tone is unclear. (Someone even emailed me once to complain about mine.) And I'm mostly interested in the exchange of ideas vs. argument, so I wanted to try to make that clear.

But you are right, there may be more to the flower thing than I've cottoned on to.

II pick Oreos because I love Oreos (and "Mission-brand tortilla chips" is too long to type over and over.) If I could pick one junk food to turn into healthy food, it would be the Oreo. I don't know what's in them, either. Lard, sugar, chocolate (or chocolate flavoring)...but Oh, they are so GOOD. I want to know what those lemon and Reese's ones taste like. If they did it right, that Reese's one could be the best cookie ever invented. If I became terminal, that's the FIRST thing I'd eat.

I've kind of given up on debating whether or not junk food exists. If people want to eat the stuff, I'm all for it. If they want to claim it is healthy, okay.

It's when they start discouraging people who WANT to eat all healthy food to not do it that I'm like, "No, the Oreo isn't healthy just because you had asparagus right before it."

Plus, they're always saying things like, "Eighty percent of my diet is healthy!" Well, then what's the 20%? You can't really have it both ways. If you say 80% is healthy! then a fifth of your diet is something else. If someone else chooses to avoid the 20%, whatever want to call it, let them have their 100% healthy. It doesn't take you 20% away.

I don't think you do that. I usually blow the screen up so I don't see the names, anyway.

*gives pink Gerbera daisy*

It's when they start discouraging people who WANT to eat all healthy food to not do it that I'm like, "No, the Oreo isn't healthy just because you had asparagus right before it."

Plus, they're always saying things like, "Eighty percent of my diet is healthy!" Well, then what's the 20%? You can't really have it both ways. If you say 80% is healthy! then a fifth of your diet is something else. If someone else chooses to avoid the 20%, whatever want to call it, let them have their 100% healthy. It doesn't take you 20% away.

Personally, I'd say people often confuse the effects of food/sugar/what-have-you, with eating way too damn much of it. If you're not eating too many calories of Oreos or anything else, you can and will be successful, when it comes to weight loss, anyway. It's not about eating Oreos or any kind of junk food just because someone said to. It's if it's something you like, ideally a diet that includes it would actually feel more personalized and less foreign to the individual, and anecdotically lead to improved compliance and success with the diet

But then again, just like you don't have to exercise to lose weight, if doing any form of exercise is still your goal, then go for it. Some of us just feel it's important to caution users who feel like they have to eat 100% _____ to lose weight, I think because we were in their shoes once with that same misconception, and fell flat on our face due to feeling overly restricted. Now that the user knows they don't have to eliminate Blizzards, do they still want to? Yes? Then go for it. However if they were to make a post saying, hey this eating Blizzards in moderation doesn't work for me, I might still offer alternate insights and suggestions and try to understand what about it didn't work, because hey, that's what we do here, right?

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

Well, I don't know about that. Where I live, the farm to table movement is pretty big and there are a lot of super tasty artisan pizzas, with whole wheat crusts and gluten free crusts options. I've never tried the cauliflower version before, but I might look into that. The crust is just a delivery vehicle for the sauce, cheese and toppings for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a stuffed deep dish can be delicious too (oooh, Zachary's...) but to say that artisan pizzas don't have there place in the pizza pantheon is just plain crazy.

If you think the crust is just a delivery vehicle then your palate is dead. Period.

Right. Because pizza crust is an important basis point for palate range. Next time I'm at French Laundry, I'll be sure to ask about their preferred pizza crust. Hahahaha.

You truly know nothing about food. But, hey, enjoy your brunch