Moderation DOES NOT WORK for me

And if I'm going to have pizza, as a foodie it's going to be a damned good probably artisan pizza. No Pizza Hut for me. But it's going to be on a whole wheat crust (or cauliflower if I get the hankering, which happens), and have lots of veggies.

That's not pizza.

By YOUR definition. Fortunately. I don't live by your definitions. :laugh:

Not by anyone with taste buds. But hey, you're fine and healthy and sane, right?

Well, I don't know about that. Where I live, the farm to table movement is pretty big and there are a lot of super tasty artisan pizzas, with whole wheat crusts and gluten free crusts options. I've never tried the cauliflower version before, but I might look into that. The crust is just a delivery vehicle for the sauce, cheese and toppings for the most part. Don't get me wrong, a stuffed deep dish can be delicious too (oooh, Zachary's...) but to say that artisan pizzas don't have there place in the pizza pantheon is just plain crazy.

If you think the crust is just a delivery vehicle then your palate is dead. Period.

Right. Because pizza crust is an important basis point for palate range. Next time I'm at French Laundry, I'll be sure to ask about their preferred pizza crust. Hahahaha.

You truly know nothing about food. But, hey, enjoy your brunch

When I mention the nasty bugs and bug excretions that find their way deliberately or accidentally into our processed foods I get a lot of people saying "So what? Cultures XY and Z all eat bugs and love them!"

So by that reasoning, if we'd all been raised on grasshopper pizza crust we'd all find it delicious and nothing less would do. Therefore, how can we ever separate what foods we've been conditioned to like from what has a 'good' taste and texture?

Pizza crust is bread. Arguing that pizza crust adds nothing to "the palate" is like arguing there isn't a difference between tasty bread and crap bread.

And Thomas Keller loves (good) pizza. It makes a regular appearance at many of his restaurants.

Arguing about anyone's personal TASTE is rather silly if you ask me.

If you enjoy cauliflower crust pizza then you're wasting your money at FL. Just saying.

Did your mommy not give you enough love? Seriously. That you need to mock others' food choices is beyond sad.

Give those cats a hug for me, mmmmk?

I rest my case. You're a sad little boy. Here's a flower:flowerforyou:

Based on your respective counts, I think you both just like posting, regardless of the topic at hand.

But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.

Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.

I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.

I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.

But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.

Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.

I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.

I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.

Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.

Yes, I've read similar studies about alcohol. But I'm not claiming that addiction doesn't exist, although obviously even addicts can modify their behavior in some ways and of course can quit. I'm saying that it's crazy to claim that there is anything analogous between having a hard time limiting your consumption of a particular item to calorie-appropriate levels when (and because) it's something you find super tasty and being addicted to something. Alcoholics may well really enjoy the taste of certain kinds of alcohol, but the essence of alcoholism is not that you just really, really love the taste of G&Ts.

But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.

Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.

I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.

I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.

Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.

Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.

Hey, if you don't like a certain food then say it, but don't denigrate it and pretend to know what you're talking about, and then name drop to cover up for your obvious fumbling. You might as well call sushi rice a delivery vehicle for fish, and then start telling me all about Sukiyabashi. It's weird.

Start with wanting to lose weight and be healthy more than wanting to eat junk food. Until that happens, the "how" part doesn't matter. Focus on why.

Also, don't replace peanut butter with PB2 under the false notion that PB2 is "healthier." That doesn't even vaguely resemble an accurate statement. I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with PB2 (except that it's had all the fat removed, which defeats the whole purpose of peanut butter). But it is most definitely NOT healthier than actual peanut butter. It just has a ton fewer calories because it is a ton less delicious.

If you think your deal is food addiction, what's the luxury? Wouldn't OA be the answer?

I'm not trying to be critical of your analysis of your own issues--seriously, my problem is more that you applied them to the OP's post, which said nothing about addiction

But if you are so sure it's convenient packaged supermarket food that's the problem, why not avoid it and whatever your trigger foods are?

I push back against the "addiction" assertions because I get the impression that people like to invoke addiction so casually because there's this idea that being an addict means that you can't help it, bear no personal responsibility, and simply cannot change things

Now, if that's so, I think that's too bad, because I think that's far more shame than anyone should feel for the "only hurts yourself" foible of being overweight, which may well relate more to different priorities and there are far worse priorities to have. (But then part of why I got fat is it never bothered me as much as maybe it should have.) But as an alcoholic (sober), I don't at all think that the addiction excuse does led you off the hook. I bear complete responsibility for the years I drank to excess and all the stupid and bad things I did while drinking. And I bear responsibility for staying sober, too. I do think I got a particular genetic makeup that caused me to have a different reaction to alcohol than many or most do--although alcoholism is a strange mix of physical and psychological, of course--but none of that excuses anything.

Anyway, I think the idea that some might have different reactions than others to specific kinds of foods is a possible and interesting one, although I find the idea of a psychological addiction to food in general (related to binging disorders also) more compelling.

(What I find absurd is the idea that sugar is like crack or meth, almost certainly to become physically addictive for all of us who dare to experiment with it.)

But the problem with the general claim is that it's usually made about foods (like sugary sweets) that don't seem different in kind from others that don't invoke the same response from the same person (the usual "I'm addicted to gummi bears but not bananas or sugar from the jar" kind of thing). It just doesn't make sense.

I do not feel that everyone who posts anything must be prepared to enter some sort of debate.

I've gone the route of debating the existence of junk food. Some people don't believe that what they eat makes a difference in their health. Others know it does, but refuse to admit it. Either way, I'd be banging my head against a wall.

Besides, converting you into believing that junk food can harm you does me no good. Can't help me any.

Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.

Now I'm done. No cried of unfairness, personal insults or studies that show the Oreo is really a health food will drag me into some prolonged argument of the existence of junk food.

Don't believe junk food exists? Okay by me.

Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.

I do not feel that everyone who posts anything must be prepared to enter some sort of debate.

I've gone the route of debating the existence of junk food. Some people don't believe that what they eat makes a difference in their health. Others know it does, but refuse to admit it. Either way, I'd be banging my head against a wall.

Besides, converting you into believing that junk food can harm you does me no good. Can't help me any.

Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.

Now I'm done. No cried of unfairness, personal insults or studies that show the Oreo is really a health food will drag me into some prolonged argument of the existence of junk food.

Don't believe junk food exists? Okay by me.

Then you need to stop challenging people about things like "lard" without being able to provide any specifics about what is bad about it.

Especially when the food under discussion doesn't even contain it.

There is nothing known to be toxic in an Oreo cookie.

Since you're declaring that it isn't fair, I'll give you one of many possible answers: It clogs up your arteries.

The myth of eating saturated fats causing high cholesterol has been debunked for a while now:

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/01/does-dietary-saturated-fat-increase.html

"Overall, the literature does not offer much support for the idea that long term saturated fat intake has a significant effect on the concentration of blood cholesterol in humans. If it's a factor at all, it must be rather weak."

If you are going to talk about "junk food", then you need to explain precisely what is bad about the food. Generally, the most damning thing you can say about "junk food", (and this is what makes it junk), is that it is low in essential nutrients, and usually high in calories.

But other than that, there's generally not anything toxic about it as a food.

I feel like doing some white knighting, so I'll say this in defense of the "moderation doesn't work" peeps:

Whereas guided moderation has worked great for me, I've noticed time and again that moderation doesn't seem to work (except very short term) in the absence of some objective way to measure both how much I've eaten and how much I should be eating.

It's all nice and good to say moderation works while we have at our disposal a tool that makes it easy, but if I didn't have access to some sort of way to log what I eat (or if I didn't want to do so), restrictive dieting would be the only way I could keep my weight stable.

In a very real sense, it's less a matter of "one method is better than the other" than one of "we have two methods, each with their advantages and disadvantages".

You can definitely lose weight outside of calorie counting, but my assumption is that anyone posting a question here has chosen to calorie count using the MFP tool.

Edit: I missed one part of your post in parentheses. If they don't want to count calories, I usually tend to stay away from the topic except for mild enlightenment / entertainment. We'd simply not be using the same path to weight loss at that point and I couldn't contribute much if anything to their selected strategy

But there are some things made of cauliflower that are tasty. And let's remember this all started because of your snobbiness about pizza crust and claiming I had no palate since I see it primarily as a sauce, cheese, toppings delivery vehicle. And sometimes you don't need to drop $1000 at such places -- work can pick up the tab (but I remember it being more like $400/head). One of the few benefits of that salt mine.

Either way, why all the insults? Oh, because you can. Stay classy.

I'm just trying to figure out how two people with no discernible palates care so much about French Laundry. Hey, knock yourselves out. I'm sure the Sommelier will have a field day with you.

I know it's a crazy idea that someone can enjoy a meal at a place like French Laundry and still think that pizza crust is overrated and primarily a sauce, cheese and toppings delivery vehicle. That was also my experience eating it in Italy. But, yes, I now with your instruction, I realize how that is actually impossible. Silly me.

Hence my point. If you believe that then your palate is dead. Take that any way you want, but it's a fact. You might as well eat Dominoes or Pizza Hut. Hell, definitely eat Pizza Hut because that greasy crap they call crust holds more so it makes a better delivery vehicle. Never mind the mouth feel of the crust or the careful balance of ingredients, just take any bread-like object, load it up, and shove it in.

Or, genius, you could just not like bread that much, period. But you still like the savory components of cheese, sauce and various toppings. You're really quite obtuse about this. But I guess that makes you feel better about yourself.

Hey, if you don't like a certain food then say it, but don't denigrate it and pretend to know what you're talking about, and then name drop to cover up for your obvious fumbling. You might as well call sushi rice a delivery vehicle for fish, and then start telling me all about Sukiyabashi. It's weird.

That's how I view pizza crust. You feel differently. I'm not denigrating you, but you certainly have time and time again insulted and denigrated me. You're a complete hypocrite.

I feel the same way about rice in Thai curries -- sauce delivery vehicle. Or the same about most non-filled pastas. I'll substitute out for spaghetti squash because the pasta itself doesn't do much for me.

There isn't any objective truth. It's simply a matter of taste. Why don't you try not being such a jerk sometime?