"Paleo diet" - 70% fat???

Hi guys,
Can you please respect the forum rules and each other. Personal remarks and insults are not acceptable here. This is a great debate, please try to keep it that way. If you are offended by anything someone says then please do not post in retaliation but report the post. Posts that were threatening to derail the topic have been removed/edited.

Thank you. :flowerforyou:
Ms_Natalie

MyFitnessPal Forum Moderator.

I always get suspicious when some virtually removes an entire food group....

Me too. Those vegans are suspicious....

I keep coming back to this thread for the chuckles.
:laugh:

I don't agree with the premise that grains are not part of our historical diet. If that is the case, why did we evolve molars, which are used to grind plant material so we can digest it? I do agree that overprocessed grains are a problem, and personally try to reduce or eliminate white starches from my own diet.

That said, I was reading on CNN the other day about gluten intolerance and how a surprising number of people (about 10% of the population) appear to have milder forms of gluten intolerance and therefore can benefit from a gluten-free diet. I hunted down the article link, if you care to read more about this idea.

"While celiac disease affects about 1 percent of the U.S. population, experts estimate that as many as 10 percent have a related and poorly understood condition known as non-celiac gluten intolerance (NCGI), or gluten sensitivity."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/04/12/gluten.free.diet.improve/index.html

I always get suspicious when some virtually removes an entire food group....

Me too. Those vegans are suspicious....

I keep coming back to this thread for the chuckles.
:laugh:

Thanks. I was chuckling when I wrote it. It just drives me insane when they pick on Paleo/Low carbers and completely overlook other dietary groups that limit or eliminate completely whole entire food groups. It seems biased to me.

In the absence of sugar in their diet the rice they live on doesn't seem to cause the same problems that our wheat consumption causes. It might be that the grains they consume are not wheat based...hummmmmm. Or wait...they don't eat much sugar.

So, which is it? Is sugar entirely absent or is it low in sugar? Clearly the Japanese do consume sugar just in lower quantities that usual Western diets. That goes for salt as well. I don't think most people really need telling that a diet high in sugar and salt isn't the greatest thing in the world. But of course high does not equal absent or indeed low.

Oh, whilst rice is a staple of Japanese cuisine it is less prevalent than those funny, long strand like things, usually white. Now what are they called again? Oh yeah, noodles. I'm pretty sure noodles are made from flour made from those cursed grain thingymawatsits. Next time I go to Wagamamas and order my favourite Udon dish I will ask my waitress just to be sure.

Maybe that is the key to their long life expectancy. When they started eating sugar and wheat like us westerners they started getting the same sick bodies...HBP, HBG, HChol, heart disease. Hummmm makes you stop and think.

I think you are confusing Japanese and Chinese cultures here. Japan has been particularly resistant to Western influences. The recent liberalisation of the Chinese market however as lead to instances of increasing obesity in built up areas where calorie dense, as opposed to wheat based, Western food is available. In rural areas, where the staple is rice then no.

At least the debate seems to have moved on. We have gone from "grains are bad" to "some grains, specifically wheat based, are bad" and "rice isn't that bad unless it is combined with sugar and in dieting." I find both those positions dubious to say the least but if it works for you then keep on keeping on. Me? I will continue eating rice, noodles, bread, alcohol or whatever takes my fancy from time to time with no fear.

wow what a thread.. okay heres just a few points to be taken into consideration. I am not a doctor. I'm a nursing student and these are just a few things that i have learned about physiology and how the body works. Also i am consulting my books right now so i'm not pulling it out of the air.. they are just college textbooks. can't exactly give you a web page to go look at..
first of all. we have been trained to think that fats are bad for us, but it is saturated fats that are bad, as long as you eat unsaturated fats they are actually quite beneficial.
Here is the break down of calories.
1 gram of fat has 9 calories
1 gram of protein has 4 calories
1 gram of carbohydrate has 4 calories
So to maintain a lower calorie diet you have to eat less if you are going to have a high fat diet.
A diet high in either of the three groups can be detrimental.

Heres what it says on carbohydrates

Carbohydrates are either simple or complex. Glucose is a simple sugar preferred by the body as an energy source. Complex carbohydrates with several sugar units are digested to glucose. While body cells can use fatty acids as an energy source, brain cells require glucose. For this reason alone, it is necessary to include carbohydrates in the diet because the body is unable to convert fatty acids to glucose.

Any product made from refined grains, such as white bread, cake, and cookies, should be minimized in the diet. During refinement, fiber and also vitamins and minerals are removed from grains, so primarily starch remains. In contrast, sources of complex carbohydrates, such as beans, peas, nuts, fruits, and whole-grain products, are recommended as a good source of vitamins, minerals, and also fiber. Insoluble fiber adds bulk to fecal material and stimulates movements of the large intestine, preventing constipation. Soluble fiber combines with bile salts and cholesterol in the small intestine and prevents them from being absorbed.

Can Carbohydrates Be Harmful?
Some nutritionists hypothesize that the high intake of refined carbohydrates and fructose sweeteners processed from cornstarch may be responsible for obesity in the United States. In addition, these foods are said to have a high glycemic index (GI) , because they quickly increase blood glucose. When the blood glucose level rises rapidly, the pancreas produces an overload of insulin to bring the level under control. Investigators tell us that a chronically high insulin level may lead to insulin resistance, diabetes type 2, and increased fat deposition. Deposition of fat is associated with coronary heart disease, liver ailments, and several types of cancer.



Proteins
Dietary proteins are digested to amino acids, which cells use to synthesize hundreds of cellular proteins. Of the 20 different amino acids, nine are essential amino acids that must be present in the diet. Children will not grow if their diets lack the essential amino acids. Eggs, milk products, meat, poultry, and most other foods derived from animals contain all nine essential amino acids and are “complete” or “high-quality” protein sources.

Legumes (beans and peas) (Fig. 8.13), other types of vegetables, seeds and nuts, and grains supply us with amino acids. However, each of these alone is an incomplete protein source, because of a deficiency in at least one of the essential amino acids. Absence of one essential amino acid prevents use of the other 19 amino acids. Therefore, vegetarians are counselled to combine two or more incomplete types of plant products to acquire all the essential amino acids. Tofu, soymilk, and other foods made from processed soybeans are complete protein sources. A balanced vegetarian diet is possible with a little knowledge and planning.

Can Proteins Be Harmful?
The liver removes the nitrogen-containing compound from an amino acid. By converting this portion to urea, the liver enables potentially toxic nitrogen to be removed from our bodies. However, large amounts of water are needed to properly excrete urea. Therefore, dehydration may occur if protein consumption is excessive. High-protein diets, especially those rich in animal proteins, can also increase calcium loss in urine. Excretion of calcium may lead to kidney stones and bone loss.

Certain types of meat, especially red meat, are known to be high in saturated fats, while other sources of protein, such as chicken, fish, and eggs, are more likely to be low in saturated fats. Better protein sources include chicken, fish, and egg whites, which are more likely to be low in saturated fats. As you recall from Chapter 5, excessive dietary saturated fat is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease .

Lipids
Fats, oils, and cholesterol are lipids. Saturated fats, which are solids at room temperature, usually have an animal origin. Two well-known exceptions are palm oil and coconut oil, which contain mostly saturated fats and come from the plants mentioned . Butter and fats associated with meats (like the fat on steak and bacon) contain saturated fats.

Oils contain unsaturated fatty acids, which do not promote cardiovascular disease. Corn oil and safflower oil are high in polyunsaturated fatty acids. Polyunsaturated oils are the only type of fat that contains linoleic acid and linolenic acid, two fatty acids the body cannot make. These fatty acids must be supplied by diet, so they are called essential fatty acids .

Olive oil and canola oil are well known to contain a larger percentage of monounsaturated fatty acids than other types of cooking oils. Omega-3 fatty acids—with a double bond in the third position—are believed to preserve brain function and protect against heart disease. Flaxseed contains abundant omega-3 fatty acids. Cold-water fish like salmon, sardines, and trout are also excellent sources.

Can Lipids Be Harmful?
The risk for cardiovascular disease is increased by a diet high in saturated fats and cholesterol. Saturated fats contribute to the formation of lesions associated with artherosclerosis inside the blood vessels. These lesions, termed atherosclerotic plaques, limit the flow of blood through these vessels. (See Chap. 5 for a review of the process.) Cholesterol is carried in the blood by the two transport proteins: high-density lipoprotein (HDL) and low-density lipoprotein (LDL). Cholesterol transported by HDL (the “good” lipoprotein) ends up in the liver where the cholesterol is metabolized. Cholesterol carried by LDL (the “bad” lipoprotein) ends up being deposited in the tissues. Artherosclerotic plaques form when levels of HDL are low and/or when levels of LDL are high. Recommended levels of HDL and LDL can be re-established by a diet low in saturated fats and cholesterol.

Trans-fatty acids (trans fats) arise when unsaturated fatty acids are hydrogenated to produce a solid fat. The function of the cell-membrane receptors that clear cholesterol from the bloodstream may be reduced by trans fats resulting in higher blood cholesterol level. Trans fats are found in commercially packaged goods, such as cookies and crackers. Unfortunately, other snacks such as microwave popcorn may be sources as well. Be aware that any packaged goods containing “partially hydrogenated” vegetable oils or shortening contain trans fats. Some margarines used for home cooking or baking incorporate hydrogenated vegetable oil. Commercially fried foods, such as French fries from some fast-food chains, should be strictly limited in a healthy diet. Though tasty, these are often full of trans fats.




:flowerforyou: Okay so there is everything that I know. Pretty much fats are okay as long as you are not eating saturated or trans fats.. in fact never eat trans fats. they aren't even real in nature.. Anyways I think its best to find what works for your body. Everything about grains in the paleo diet is totally true, we dont need grains and they are not a good form of carbohydrates. Do what works for you, your life style, and your body...

Also last bit from my book

Searching for the Magic Weight-Loss Bullet
“Eat a variety of foods, watch your weight, and exercise” doesn't sound like a very glamorous way to lose weight. Besides you can't sell the message to the public and make a lot of money. No wonder the public, always looking for the magic weight-loss bullet, is offered so many solutions to being overweight, most of which are not healthy. The solutions involve trendy diet programs, new prescription medications, and even surgery. The latter two options are for people who have tried a low-calorie diet and regular physical activity but have been unsuccessful in losing weight. Prescription medications should only be taken under a physician's supervision, and of course, surgeries are only done by physicians.

TRENDY DIET PROGRAMS:
Various diets for the over-weight have been around for many years, and here are some recently touted:

The Pritikin Diet This diet encourages the consumption of large amounts of carbohydrates and fiber in the form of whole grains and vegetables. The diet is so low-fat that the dieter may not be able to consume a sufficient amount of “healthy” fats.
The Atkins Diet This diet is just the opposite of the Pritikin Diet because it is a low-carbohydrate (carb) diet. It is based on the assumption that if we eat more protein and fat, our bodies lose weight by burning stored body fat. The Atkins diet is thought by many to be a serious threat to homeostasis. It puts a strain on the body to maintain the blood glucose level, the breakdown of fat lowers blood pH, and the excretion of nitrogen from protein breakdown stresses the kidneys.
The Zone Diet and the South Beach Diet As a reaction to the Atkins diet, these diets recommend only “healthy” fats and permit low-sugar carbs. In other words, these diets are bringing us back, once again, to “Eat a variety of foods, maintain your weight, and exercise.”
You may have heard of the caveman diet. The caveman diet mimics the diets of humans prior to agricultural pursuits. It promotes the consumption of meats, fish, fruits, and vegetables. If you would rather not change your lifestyle dramatically, you can “flush” fat away, according to some nutritionists. They assert that by consuming certain foods, such as cayenne pepper, mustard, cinnamon, green vegetables, and omega-3-rich fish, you can boost your metabolic rate and cleanse your body of fat.

Then again, according to a professor at Brigham Young University, the cure for endless dieting and the key to reaching a healthy weight is to listen to your body. Using a hunger scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being starving and 10 being very overfull, keep around 3 to 5 and you will eat less. Unfortunately, such sensible advice doesn't seem to have caught on yet.

Thank you McGraw-Hill and Connect =D i'm not stealing or saying this is mine, blahblahblahblahblah.. dont sue. yeahh

The Atkins diet is thought by many to be a serious threat to homeostasis. It puts a strain on the body to maintain the blood glucose level, the breakdown of fat lowers blood pH, and the excretion of nitrogen from protein breakdown stresses the kidneys.
The Zone Diet and the South Beach Diet As a reaction to the Atkins diet, these diets recommend only “healthy” fats and permit low-sugar carbs. In other words, these diets are bringing us back, once again, to “Eat a variety of foods, maintain your weight, and exercise.”

I hate that this is used over and over again to describe Atkins...."Stresses the kidneys". Yes if you already have full blown kidney disease(read: no kidney function), you should probably limit your protein intake. If you have healthy kidneys, they are quite capable of handling massive amounts of protein in the absence of excess carbohydrate in the form of sugars! I have a sister-in-law who gained alot of weight after a successful kidney transplant (from a family member). The nephrologist (kidney doctor out of University of Californina, San Franisisco) put her on Atkins to help her get to a healthy weight. Now if a kidney doctor doesn't think it is dangerous, who am I to say it is!

To the original poster....

Gluten Sensitivity Article - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704893604576200393522456636.html

Dr's Intro to Paleo - http://www.earth360.com/diet_paleodiet_balzer.html

Dr. on Milk's Effects on Body (Why I first cut dairy, for my breastfeeding son. He is no longer constipated, sleeps much more soundly andis no longer in pain asa result. I feel great without and don't miss it) - http://drjaygordon.com/pediatricks/dairy.html

Kind of long but I found it an interesting read. Pages are short. - http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?src=pm

For those interested in substitutes for things, a great recipe blog site.... http://www.elanaspantry.com/ She has recipes for cupcakes, frosting, crackers, salad dressings, breads and anything else you can imagine. She eats very close to paleo and has a lot of paleo recipes, and those that aren't I am sure can be very easily adapted.

www.everydaypaleo.com is a great website with recipes and also talks about paleo when it comes to every day life and family.



I will say that for me, personally, I have found eating paleo I feel much better than I did trying my best to be active and eat healthy before. I also find it much easier to do so. I find I get more of my nutrients needed for the day this way as well. Since making the switch I have more energy, my life long depression, anxiety and mood swings (which have been dealt with on and off with medications through the years) are no longer issues. My husband actually made a comment the other day which says a lot. He has always had difficulty dealing with it and I know I am much more even tempered and easier to live with. My two year old has had a major temper and mood swings also, and is now much more even with his temper. He listens better, has WAY fewer tantrums and when he does have them they are very short lived. He is much more compliant, while still maintaining his bubbly, energetic and happy personality. He is also very healthy. I have about 50-65% fat on any given day, it varies. I eat to hunger and whatever I feel the need to eat. I don't know my carb and protein ratios. Normally my carbs are around 100ish or so and maybe about a third of that is fiber and the rest I guess would be protein. I get about 2000-2200 calories a day (I am breastfeeding my six month old, by the way my supply is also FANTASTIC) My son I am sure has a very different ratio. I know he gets a lot more carbs than I do, he gets what he wants when he wants. I just make sure to keep the house stocked with foods that are healthy. This way all of his choices will be the "right" ones, and the fact that he is picking I know they will be the right ones for him specifically. His body knows what it needs better than I do, I think. Looking at his intake it is very balanced.

The thing with the paleo way of eating is that you figure out what your body works best with. The 30 day challenge where you go very strict is very helpful. Doing this you can then reintroduce foods and see how your body responds and fine tune your diet to where your body performs at it's best. As other people have said if you have any curiosity about paleo or primal eating, give it a trial run for about 30 days and see what you think, how you feel, etc. People can argue until they are blue in the face but what it really comes down to is how your food makes you feel and how it affects your individual body. Good luck in finding what works best for you!

Kind of long but I found it an interesting read. Pages are short. - http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?src=pm

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

At least the debate seems to have moved on. We have gone from "grains are bad" to "some grains, specifically wheat based, are bad" and "rice isn't that bad unless it is combined with sugar and in dieting." I find both those positions dubious to say the least but if it works for you then keep on keeping on. Me? I will continue eating rice, noodles, bread, alcohol or whatever takes my fancy from time to time with no fear.

Actually the argument has ALWAYS been grains with gluten are not optimal food sources. Rice is empty calories, that in moderation does not have any adverse affect on the body, unless you are already insulin resistant, then the insulin spike you get from the carbs in the rice could/would have a negative effect. Same with potatoes, nothing all that much wrong with them, it’s just that they are pretty much empty calories.

Really you should stop with the straw man arguments, you setting up a false premise just so you can shoot it down does nothing to further your argument.

And as for the Japanese, yes they eat a lot of rice, but they eat very little gluten, and they eat a ton of fish, fresh vegetables and fruits. And they eat on average 25% less calories than the typical western diet.

Ask a sumo wrestler how healthy rice is.