Gaining muscle
NoelleED
Posts: 148
It's hard to sift through the massive amounts of personal opinion on this one, so help me out.
I am doing weight training every other day. I mostly train my upper body as my legs are enormously strong already (they carry my 280 pounds around all day). I eat a lot of protein but am at a calorie deficit most days.
I have heard two things that concern me. One is that you can gain no more than a pound of muscle in a week, so you should still be losing weight overall. The other is that it is impossible to build any muscle at all while you are in a calorie deficit.
Both of these ideas kinda deflate my happy muscley balloon. Can they be true?
Also, any tips or ideas for 1. good protein sources that aren't meat/dairy and 2. good routines are welcome.
I am doing weight training every other day. I mostly train my upper body as my legs are enormously strong already (they carry my 280 pounds around all day). I eat a lot of protein but am at a calorie deficit most days.
I have heard two things that concern me. One is that you can gain no more than a pound of muscle in a week, so you should still be losing weight overall. The other is that it is impossible to build any muscle at all while you are in a calorie deficit.
Both of these ideas kinda deflate my happy muscley balloon. Can they be true?
Also, any tips or ideas for 1. good protein sources that aren't meat/dairy and 2. good routines are welcome.
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More like 1 pound a month when eating on a bulk from what I've seen bandied.
Also, n=1 but you can have some muscular growth when a new lifter eating at maintenance. At a deficit? It would be hard, and you'd probably have to be a young male.
Your legs aren't as strong as you think, do full body work. For a couple reasons, one being CNS adaptation, another being stimulation of growth/repair hormone production is based on amount of muscles recruited. I know, leg day is hard, but it's for your health.
1. Protein source that isn't meat or dairy. Protein powder made from something other than whey, and has an appropriate protein level per serving.
2. Routines are based on goals. Overall good routines for general are stronglifts and starting strength. That's for lifting. For general moving around exercise, some folks like the tony horton stuff. Me, I can't understand watching tv to get a workout.0 -
1 - TRUE - There is a limit to the amount of muscle your body can build in a given period of time.
2 - FALSE - You can actually build muscle with a calorie deficit. Your body will continue to burn its reserves (fat - it is easier to burn than muscle), and if you are lifting, it will have to spend its available energy/protein to rebuild those muscles. Your body will build muscle if it thinks it needs to. Too many people seem to believe that just eating excess calories and lots of protein will get them there, but that is just not the case. Saying you can't build muscle while on a calorie deficit is like saying that cuts on your fingers won't heal unless you are eating at maintenance or above.0 -
mereditheve wrote: »1 - TRUE - There is a limit to the amount of muscle your body can build in a given period of time.
2 - FALSE - You can actually build muscle with a calorie deficit. Your body will continue to burn its reserves (fat - it is easier to burn than muscle), and if you are lifting, it will have to spend its available energy/protein to rebuild those muscles. Your body will build muscle if it thinks it needs to. Too many people seem to believe that just eating excess calories and lots of protein will get them there, but that is just not the case. Saying you can't build muscle while on a calorie deficit is like saying that cuts on your fingers won't heal unless you are eating at maintenance or above.
This is false. The body doesn't build muscle on a calorie deficit, because a calorie deficit means the body is starving. It will not build new tissue that requires even more calories to support if it isn't currently getting enough calories to support what it already has. In a starvation setting (aka calorie deficit) fat stores are far more important than muscle tissue.
There's a huge difference between repairing damage and building new tissue. And even your example (cuts on a finger) will disprove your argument, because a cut takes far longer to heal when a person is in a calorie deficit than it would at maintenance or a calorie surplus, because the body doesn't have the resources to dedicate to it.0 -
You can build muscle in a deficit but it is short term basically.
3 options:
A noob to weight lifting
B muscle memory
C drugs
It isn't going to much though basically. In a deficit, you lift to retain what muscle mass you have essentially.0 -
beans is high in protein-1
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tigersword wrote: »mereditheve wrote: »1 - TRUE - There is a limit to the amount of muscle your body can build in a given period of time.
2 - FALSE - You can actually build muscle with a calorie deficit. Your body will continue to burn its reserves (fat - it is easier to burn than muscle), and if you are lifting, it will have to spend its available energy/protein to rebuild those muscles. Your body will build muscle if it thinks it needs to. Too many people seem to believe that just eating excess calories and lots of protein will get them there, but that is just not the case. Saying you can't build muscle while on a calorie deficit is like saying that cuts on your fingers won't heal unless you are eating at maintenance or above.
This is false. The body doesn't build muscle on a calorie deficit, because a calorie deficit means the body is starving. It will not build new tissue that requires even more calories to support if it isn't currently getting enough calories to support what it already has. In a starvation setting (aka calorie deficit) fat stores are far more important than muscle tissue.
There's a huge difference between repairing damage and building new tissue. And even your example (cuts on a finger) will disprove your argument, because a cut takes far longer to heal when a person is in a calorie deficit than it would at maintenance or a calorie surplus, because the body doesn't have the resources to dedicate to it.
You're trying to make it a black and white answer -- a calorie deficit alone does not make it so the body cannot build muscle, so it is still possible to build muscle on a calorie deficit. However, that does not mean that everyone can. A number of factors matter in whether a specific individual will build muscle on a calorie deficit, including: the extent of the deficit, the extent of that individual's excess fat reserves, and the volume and intensity of that individual's workouts.
The OP is a perfect case for someone who can and should be building muscle on a calorie deficit. She has around 100 lbs to lose. As long as she consumes a diet conducive to muscle hypertrophy and keeps a regular lifting routine, she can build muscle while in a deficit.0 -
tigersword wrote: »mereditheve wrote: »1 - TRUE - There is a limit to the amount of muscle your body can build in a given period of time.
2 - FALSE - You can actually build muscle with a calorie deficit. Your body will continue to burn its reserves (fat - it is easier to burn than muscle), and if you are lifting, it will have to spend its available energy/protein to rebuild those muscles. Your body will build muscle if it thinks it needs to. Too many people seem to believe that just eating excess calories and lots of protein will get them there, but that is just not the case. Saying you can't build muscle while on a calorie deficit is like saying that cuts on your fingers won't heal unless you are eating at maintenance or above.
This is false. The body doesn't build muscle on a calorie deficit, because a calorie deficit means the body is starving. It will not build new tissue that requires even more calories to support if it isn't currently getting enough calories to support what it already has. In a starvation setting (aka calorie deficit) fat stores are far more important than muscle tissue.
There's a huge difference between repairing damage and building new tissue. And even your example (cuts on a finger) will disprove your argument, because a cut takes far longer to heal when a person is in a calorie deficit than it would at maintenance or a calorie surplus, because the body doesn't have the resources to dedicate to it.
^^^Listen to this. You need a surplus of calories to gain muscle and a deficit to lose fat. It comes down to science, your body obeys the laws of thermodynamics.0 -
You can absolutely lose fat and gain muscle on a deficit, IF your fat, and IF these are noob gains/muscle memory. Deficit should not be greater than 500cal. Your body will use both food and body fat for muscle gains and fat losses. Once you get down to around 15% you will have to choose one or the other. I was over 200lbs in Jan of this year having not exercised in 4 years due to an accident. I went from 200+ down to 173 while my arms increased from 14.5" to 15.65" cold. Muscle memory FTW. I'm curently at 163 and muscle gains have stopped for a while now. Now I'm just trying to manage muscle loss as I lose that last bit of lower belly fat.
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I am no expert and can only give my anecdotal evidence, but I have been losing weight and doing resistance training for a few months. Maybe I'm not gaining muscle, but with the weight loss and the "toning"???, it sure LOOKS like I'm gaining muscle. Even if the resistance training is only helping me keep muscle, I'm developing good habits and should be at a better place to gain muscle when I'm the size I want to be.0
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With the exception of newbie gains you can't build muscle in a deficit, you can retain lbm. For the protein sources: Greek yogurt, nuts, chicken, fish, beef, eggs, pork, did I say meat??? I love meat. Quest bars are great on the run, 20 g. of protein.0
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Nekrachael wrote: »I am no expert and can only give my anecdotal evidence, but I have been losing weight and doing resistance training for a few months. Maybe I'm not gaining muscle, but with the weight loss and the "toning"???, it sure LOOKS like I'm gaining muscle. Even if the resistance training is only helping me keep muscle, I'm developing good habits and should be at a better place to gain muscle when I'm the size I want to be.
you are losing body fat which is making existing muscle "show more"...0 -
OP …
1. yes, it is very hard to build muscle, especially for females because you all do not naturally produce as much tester one as men do.
2. If you can squat 280 punds then yes, your legs strong…if you cannot, then you are going to need to train legs and upper body equally. I would suggest some form of program like strong lifts 5x5 or new rules of lifting for woman.
3. Finally, you are not going to build muscle in a calorie deficit. The beginner will experience "newbie gains" but after the initial newbie gains wear off you will not add muscle and lose body fat. Think of it this way, what you are trying to do equates to trying to build a house and tear it down at the same time, do you really think that is possible? Muscle requires energy (calorie surplus) and losing body fat requires a negative energy balance (calorie deficit. So the process involved in building muscle and losing body fat at the same time are diametrically opposed to one another….
Anyone you tells you that you can build muscle and lose body fat at the same time is blowing some serious smoke up your you know what….0 -
tigersword wrote: »mereditheve wrote: »1 - TRUE - There is a limit to the amount of muscle your body can build in a given period of time.
2 - FALSE - You can actually build muscle with a calorie deficit. Your body will continue to burn its reserves (fat - it is easier to burn than muscle), and if you are lifting, it will have to spend its available energy/protein to rebuild those muscles. Your body will build muscle if it thinks it needs to. Too many people seem to believe that just eating excess calories and lots of protein will get them there, but that is just not the case. Saying you can't build muscle while on a calorie deficit is like saying that cuts on your fingers won't heal unless you are eating at maintenance or above.
This is false. The body doesn't build muscle on a calorie deficit, because a calorie deficit means the body is starving. It will not build new tissue that requires even more calories to support if it isn't currently getting enough calories to support what it already has. In a starvation setting (aka calorie deficit) fat stores are far more important than muscle tissue.
There's a huge difference between repairing damage and building new tissue. And even your example (cuts on a finger) will disprove your argument, because a cut takes far longer to heal when a person is in a calorie deficit than it would at maintenance or a calorie surplus, because the body doesn't have the resources to dedicate to it.
Nonsense. OP is 280 pounds and has plenty of energy reserves, hardly starving.
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OP …
1. yes, it is very hard to build muscle, especially for females because you all do not naturally produce as much tester one as men do.
2. If you can squat 280 punds then yes, your legs strong…if you cannot, then you are going to need to train legs and upper body equally. I would suggest some form of program like strong lifts 5x5 or new rules of lifting for woman.
3. Finally, you are not going to build muscle in a calorie deficit. The beginner will experience "newbie gains" but after the initial newbie gains wear off you will not add muscle and lose body fat. Think of it this way, what you are trying to do equates to trying to build a house and tear it down at the same time, do you really think that is possible? Muscle requires energy (calorie surplus) and losing body fat requires a negative energy balance (calorie deficit. So the process involved in building muscle and losing body fat at the same time are diametrically opposed to one another….
Anyone you tells you that you can build muscle and lose body fat at the same time is blowing some serious smoke up your you know what….
Actually, the math does not make sense to me. I carry around more than 100 pounds of extra fuel, so it doesn't seem like it is impossible to feed my muscles while existing at a calorie deficit. Essentially what it SEEMS like people are saying is that you can only build muscle OR lose weight, but not both.
I am Norwegian. I am not your average female. I have an extraordinarily strong body.0 -
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OP …
1. yes, it is very hard to build muscle, especially for females because you all do not naturally produce as much tester one as men do.
2. If you can squat 280 punds then yes, your legs strong…if you cannot, then you are going to need to train legs and upper body equally. I would suggest some form of program like strong lifts 5x5 or new rules of lifting for woman.
3. Finally, you are not going to build muscle in a calorie deficit. The beginner will experience "newbie gains" but after the initial newbie gains wear off you will not add muscle and lose body fat. Think of it this way, what you are trying to do equates to trying to build a house and tear it down at the same time, do you really think that is possible? Muscle requires energy (calorie surplus) and losing body fat requires a negative energy balance (calorie deficit. So the process involved in building muscle and losing body fat at the same time are diametrically opposed to one another….
Anyone you tells you that you can build muscle and lose body fat at the same time is blowing some serious smoke up your you know what….
Actually, the math does not make sense to me. I carry around more than 100 pounds of extra fuel, so it doesn't seem like it is impossible to feed my muscles while existing at a calorie deficit. Essentially what it SEEMS like people are saying is that you can only build muscle OR lose weight, but not both.
I am Norwegian. I am not your average female. I have an extraordinarily strong body.
If you are a beginner then you will have newbie gains, which will last three to six months; after that, you will not gain any new muscle and more than likely will start to lose some as you are eating in more of a calorie deficit.
It does not matter if you are Norwegian, or from Mars, unless you somehow live outside of the laws of math and physics, then you are not going to build muscle in a deficit.
If everyone could eat in a deficit AND build muscle at the same time then why isn't everyone on MFP walking around with 10% body fat and absolutely shredded...
I just finished a six month cut where I ate in a deficit and lifted heavy and I gained zero muscle...0 -
Of course I'm interested in this topic. I am a heavy set girl. I was recommended to lift weights so that I can keep my muscles as I go through the process of trying to lose fat. I've been following the Strong Lifts 5x5 program since September 29.
I eat, I probably eat too much. I have noticed that my body seems to be more tone. I've lost an inch in my tummy area, which is good news. - My weight over the past few weeks hasn't changed much.
I am currently 245 lbs, and the scale says I have 52 % fat, and between 31 and 30 % muscle - depending what day I'm weighing on (weighlifting, vs. non- weightlifting day).
My stregnth is improving - over the past month, my squats are now up to 90lbs... and, yesterday, I deadlift 105 lbs... but, saying this, and knowing that I'm not 'building' muscle is very hard to reason... how does one become stronger, and lift heavier while keeping the same muscle mass?
And yes, my diary is always open - anyone who wants to look, go ahead. (I didn't post well on saturday - there's a huge Sushi/sashimi dinner that wasnt logged in - but otherwise, it's accurate).
-Rose0 -
OP …
1. yes, it is very hard to build muscle, especially for females because you all do not naturally produce as much tester one as men do.
2. If you can squat 280 punds then yes, your legs strong…if you cannot, then you are going to need to train legs and upper body equally. I would suggest some form of program like strong lifts 5x5 or new rules of lifting for woman.
3. Finally, you are not going to build muscle in a calorie deficit. The beginner will experience "newbie gains" but after the initial newbie gains wear off you will not add muscle and lose body fat. Think of it this way, what you are trying to do equates to trying to build a house and tear it down at the same time, do you really think that is possible? Muscle requires energy (calorie surplus) and losing body fat requires a negative energy balance (calorie deficit. So the process involved in building muscle and losing body fat at the same time are diametrically opposed to one another….
Anyone you tells you that you can build muscle and lose body fat at the same time is blowing some serious smoke up your you know what….
Actually, the math does not make sense to me. I carry around more than 100 pounds of extra fuel, so it doesn't seem like it is impossible to feed my muscles while existing at a calorie deficit. Essentially what it SEEMS like people are saying is that you can only build muscle OR lose weight, but not both.
I am Norwegian. I am not your average female. I have an extraordinarily strong body.
How much muscle CAN one gain in a week? Without steroids, a pound per week would be insane! Imagine that compounded over a year. 52 pounds of muscle. Imagine 26 pounds of muscle in a year! A bulking teenage boy full of test would be lucky to gain 26 pounds (half pound per week). As a woman, you can effectively half that. Not being a teen, you can take away a little more. If you can steadily gain 1/4 pound of muscle per week, count your blessings.
The people who are assuring you that gaining muscle is not only possible, but probably for you are likely doing more harm than good. Sure, it's what you want to hear, but not what's going to happen.
What is your daily deficit? If it's 500cal, you'd make a good case study if you put on any noticeable mass during your diet. If it's more (2+ pounds per week?), I'd accuse you of being on roids, and probably call you a liar if you told me about your muscle gains.
I don't say that to be a jerk, but if you PLAN to gain muscle while cutting, you are setting up that happy muscley balloon of yours to be destroyed in a bad way. That's how people get derailed on their diets. Unrealistic expectations.
As far as protein sources? Beans, nuts, and eggs are all high protein options.
Routine? I'm a big fan of full body routines. I think avoiding legs because you think they are strong will backfire. Legs are your biggest muscles, and if you want to add LBM, it's the easiest place to gain. Try a routing like Stronglifts, Starting Strength, or if you've already been lifting a little, try Ice Cream Fitness, as it has some more bodybuilding type lifts incorporated.0 -
There's a really simple way to prove this.Actually, the math does not make sense to me. I carry around more than 100 pounds of extra fuel, so it doesn't seem like it is impossible to feed my muscles while existing at a calorie deficit. Essentially what it SEEMS like people are saying is that you can only build muscle OR lose weight, but not both.
Go get a DXA scan, it's great, it will give a precise and accurate measure of the following:
- Weight
- Bone Density
- Lean Body Mass in pounds and kilos
- Fat distribution
Get a scan take down the info. Get a second scan in 6 months. Tell us how much lbm you've gained or lost.
What's your deadlift and squat? You may think you are stronger than you actually are. Just because you are 280 pounds, does not mean you can squat 280 pounds.I am Norwegian. I am not your average female. I have an extraordinarily strong body.
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RoseyDgirl wrote: »Of course I'm interested in this topic. I am a heavy set girl. I was recommended to lift weights so that I can keep my muscles as I go through the process of trying to lose fat. I've been following the Strong Lifts 5x5 program since September 29.
I eat, I probably eat too much. I have noticed that my body seems to be more tone. I've lost an inch in my tummy area, which is good news. - My weight over the past few weeks hasn't changed much.
I am currently 245 lbs, and the scale says I have 52 % fat, and between 31 and 30 % muscle - depending what day I'm weighing on (weighlifting, vs. non- weightlifting day).
My stregnth is improving - over the past month, my squats are now up to 90lbs... and, yesterday, I deadlift 105 lbs... but, saying this, and knowing that I'm not 'building' muscle is very hard to reason... how does one become stronger, and lift heavier while keeping the same muscle mass?
And yes, my diary is always open - anyone who wants to look, go ahead. (I didn't post well on saturday - there's a huge Sushi/sashimi dinner that wasnt logged in - but otherwise, it's accurate).
-Rose
Neuroadaptation (sp?)
Basically your training is maintaining muscle mass and your body is becoming more efficient at performing the exercise/lifting the weight.
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Go find the strongest looking dude you can find. 6% bodyfat, completely shredded. Say he weighs 165 pounds. Put him up against a powerlifter at the same height, weight, and body fat percentage. The powerlifter is going to nail an 800 pound squat, while random strong guy on the streets will maybe squat 250. Same amount of muscle, though. Muscle size and muscle efficiency are not necessarily related.RoseyDgirl wrote: »My stregnth is improving - over the past month, my squats are now up to 90lbs... and, yesterday, I deadlift 105 lbs... but, saying this, and knowing that I'm not 'building' muscle is very hard to reason... how does one become stronger, and lift heavier while keeping the same muscle mass?
(..snip..)
-Rose
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Even if the OP manages to gain a few lbs of muscle in the beginning, over the course of her weight loss journey, she will probably lose that same said amount. It's virtually impossible to maintain all of your muscle or even lean body mass while your body is in a catabolic state. This is increasingly true the more lean you become. Simple, a body requires more muscle to manage 280 lbs than it will to manage 140 lbs.
OP, check out the new rules of lifting for women. It's supposed to be extremely good. It will discuss nutrient and provide several routines that are progressive in nature.0 -
ok, so I'm becoming efficient.
Maybe by New Year's I will efficiently squat 200 lbs with my 30 % muscles...
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RoseyDgirl wrote: »ok, so I'm becoming efficient. Maybe by New Year's I will efficiently squat 200 lbs with my 30 % muscles...
Possible, IDK what you're at now but I'd assume 200 as a reasonable goal. Keep in mind that within a deficit, strength gains will eventually ceiling.
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yes, but I don't think I'm eating at a deficit. Most days, I average over 2000 calories.
I eat reduced carb *under 150* - with high fat/protein.
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