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Best thread ever!!!!0
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That is all very interesting about reverse dieting. I wonder what the effects of reverse dieting are on someone who isn't experiencing this so-called metabolic damage? I ask this because I came from (what I now consider) a steep deficit (TDEE 2900-3100, I was eating around 2100), I then added 100 calories a week for a total of 11 weeks or so in order to finally find my maintenance to bulk. I wonder if adding the calories over such a long period of time had any effect on my body and is the reason for my current high consumption?
There's always an effect. Our bodies are tightly regulated systems.
But if you're asking if the process you went through potentially led to some big spike in metabolic rate... the answer is no. Anytime we rock a deficit, big or small, there is going to be some metabolic adaptation. How much depends on your level of fatness, genetics, etc. So, in theory, when you "refeed" there should be some uptick in metabolic rate in general.
It's a complex topic though. For one, our bodies are better at adapting to a deficit than they are at adapting to a surplus. Meaning our bodies will defend against a deficit more intensely than they will against a surplus.
Secondly, some people are more "thrifty" than others, meaning they respond poorly to deficits and surpluses relative to their "spend thrift" counterparts. Meaning when the former group eats a surplus, they tend to store energy more easily than the latter group. The latter group has a tendency to burn off excess energy by way of something referred to as NEAT... non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
Point being, how your body responds to increasing calories is going to vary pretty wildly depending on genetics, diet history, level of fatness, etc.
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stroutman81 wrote: »That is all very interesting about reverse dieting. I wonder what the effects of reverse dieting are on someone who isn't experiencing this so-called metabolic damage? I ask this because I came from (what I now consider) a steep deficit (TDEE 2900-3100, I was eating around 2100), I then added 100 calories a week for a total of 11 weeks or so in order to finally find my maintenance to bulk. I wonder if adding the calories over such a long period of time had any effect on my body and is the reason for my current high consumption?
There's always an effect. Our bodies are tightly regulated systems.
But if you're asking if the process you went through potentially led to some big spike in metabolic rate... the answer is no. Anytime we rock a deficit, big or small, there is going to be some metabolic adaptation. How much depends on your level of fatness, genetics, etc. So, in theory, when you "refeed" there should be some uptick in metabolic rate in general.
It's a complex topic though. For one, our bodies are better at adapting to a deficit than they are at adapting to a surplus. Meaning our bodies will defend against a deficit more intensely than they will against a surplus.
Secondly, some people are more "thrifty" than others, meaning they respond poorly to deficits and surpluses relative to their "spend thrift" counterparts. Meaning when the former group eats a surplus, they tend to store energy more easily than the latter group. The latter group has a tendency to burn off excess energy by way of something referred to as NEAT... non-exercise activity thermogenesis.
Point being, how your body responds to increasing calories is going to vary pretty wildly depending on genetics, diet history, level of fatness, etc.
Thank you Steve for taking the time to answer. Very interesting stuff!0 -
ashleydawndill wrote: »I've never read your threads before, but your advice is fantastic and I've been following everything covered so far on this one. Thanks for the great thread!
Well thanks. I used to post a lot around here. Three kids later and a blossoming business put a quick end to that though. I'm trying to make a point to get on here more though. It's still my favorite community on the 'net.
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »Best thread ever!!!!
I don't know about that but it's quickly turning into another installment of the "lean women trying to get leaner" thread that went on forever a few years back. Which is fine.
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I have a question that you may not be able to answer (and not a lean women getting leaner question, although that thread was an interesting read too).
About 7 weeks ago I fell while hiking in the woods and bruised my tailbone (per my random pain in the rear, not an official diagnosis). I continued to do strong curves for about two weeks. During the lifts, I didn't really feel much pain, which was why I continued to lift, but things like going from sitting to laying down to get into position for glute bridges killed. I didn't actually cry in the gym, but it was close. Very bad pain.
After two weeks, I decided to call of lifting so that it would actually heal. Unfortunately, sitting for long periods of time also hurts. In the past three weeks, I've had my tonsils removed and gotten a stomach flu, so way too much sitting and lying down for my tastes. And sometimes it's sore even after walking. Basically, I can't find much that doesn't hurt.
It's now 7 weeks after injury and 5 weeks after stopping lifting, and it still hurts pretty bad. But, not lifting is seriously affecting me (I think). I'm having problems with binging and my moods. I know it's a mental problem, but I really attribute lifting to keeping me out of these cycles I've had all my life. I am feeling desperate to start lifting again, but I don't want to do myself more harm than good.
Do you think I need to hold off on lifting (I know you're not a doctor or a PT), and if so, any ideas on how long typical injuries like this last?0 -
Thanks for these threads, Steve - always informative.stroutman81 wrote: »I think the best article I can remember reading about this came from (the now infamous porn star) Lyle McDonald who wrote an awesome review in Alan Aragon's Research Review about metabolic damage.
Don't ask me what month if you're a subscriber... I can't remember and I'm WAY behind in reading my AARRs.
I believe this is the article you're referring to: bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/#more-9313
[Warning: certain sensitive souls may be offended by some generalizations he makes regarding females]
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why do my ankles, knees and feet make a symphony of clicking sounds when Im walking?0
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Hi, any ideas for workouts I can do in my house on days when I cannot get out? I'm looking at a long winter and I don't have a gym membership. I'm used to walking and biking, but will soon not be able to do much of that. I can do light yoga and lift hand weights. Mine are 5 pounds. I'm open to ideas, tv workouts, videos, internet workouts, whatever...just so I get some exercise on a daily basis.
Leslie Sansone has online vids that let you walk a mile or more. Great while watching the news.0 -
Hi Steve, Nice to meet you. I was wondering if you have any advice for a woman looking to get rid of belly fat after pregnancy. My 2nd son is 19 months old. I'm steadily losing a lb a week and seeing great results everywhere but the tummy. I've had 2 c-sections in the past 4 years.
People keep telling me that you can't lose from specific spots. I am in the overweight range still and haven't hit a healthy BMI yet. For exercise, I've been intimidated by weights and heavy lifting so I've stuck with running, eliptical, crunches, squats, and super basic weights on the bowflex type machines at the gym.
I still need to lose everywhere, but it would be nice not to look like I'm 3 months pregnant.0 -
Want to read this later.0
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Bump! I don't want to be rude, but I don't know who you are and I feel like I need to know.. please tell me that is my question... Who are you? 0
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In to read later...thanks for all this great information!0
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I have a question that you may not be able to answer (and not a lean women getting leaner question, although that thread was an interesting read too).
About 7 weeks ago I fell while hiking in the woods and bruised my tailbone (per my random pain in the rear, not an official diagnosis). I continued to do strong curves for about two weeks. During the lifts, I didn't really feel much pain, which was why I continued to lift, but things like going from sitting to laying down to get into position for glute bridges killed. I didn't actually cry in the gym, but it was close. Very bad pain.
After two weeks, I decided to call of lifting so that it would actually heal. Unfortunately, sitting for long periods of time also hurts. In the past three weeks, I've had my tonsils removed and gotten a stomach flu, so way too much sitting and lying down for my tastes. And sometimes it's sore even after walking. Basically, I can't find much that doesn't hurt.
If it were me I'd be going to see a doc. Why prolong it when prolonging it might only stand to lengthen your time out of the gym?
It's impossible for me, or anyone else for that matter, to say what the problem is without an examination. I mean, it could be your tailbone itself. You can bruise, dislocate, and break that thing. And tailbones take a long time to heal, unfortunately. Or it could be something else.It's now 7 weeks after injury and 5 weeks after stopping lifting, and it still hurts pretty bad. But, not lifting is seriously affecting me (I think). I'm having problems with binging and my moods. I know it's a mental problem, but I really attribute lifting to keeping me out of these cycles I've had all my life. I am feeling desperate to start lifting again, but I don't want to do myself more harm than good.
That's understandable. I've seen it many times before - exercise provides an incentive to fuel the body properly. Remove exercise and some people lose their cool with giant gap in their lives.
To me, it's a bigger issue. Emotions should be managed directly. Using exercise to indirectly manage them is a bit risky for the very reason you're realizing right now. Poop happens and there are times when everyone has to step away from the gym. And, if anything, these times are prime for BETTER nutrition opposed to worse. But very few people manage to do this because their emotional well being is directly tied to the gym.
Remove the managing variable and things spiral.
Now how to go about managing emotions is well beyond the scope of a single post.
I started a discussion about it here:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/736717716350620/
But wow does it extend well beyond that little intro.Do you think I need to hold off on lifting (I know you're not a doctor or a PT), and if so, any ideas on how long typical injuries like this last?
Sorry, but really can't say since I don't really know what it is. Probably though.0 -
Awesome thread! Thank you. I will read through and see if I have any questions.
I do have one if you haven't gone through this: Any tips for sedentary people to get into exercise as far as types of things to do (i am 186 lbs) and starting a routine (To preserve lean muscle)0 -
Thanks for these threads, Steve - always informative.
My pleasure. I really enjoy these threads. I pretty much hate sitting down to write articles for my website but I love talking directly with people in this forum of exchange.stroutman81 wrote: »I think the best article I can remember reading about this came from (the now infamous porn star) Lyle McDonald who wrote an awesome review in Alan Aragon's Research Review about metabolic damage.
Don't ask me what month if you're a subscriber... I can't remember and I'm WAY behind in reading my AARRs.
I believe this is the article you're referring to: bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/another-look-at-metabolic-damage.html/#more-9313
[Warning: certain sensitive souls may be offended by some generalizations he makes regarding females]
Oh nice, thanks for posting that. I didn't realize it made it onto his website for free. Good deal.
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Bumping to read later0
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I'll let Steve provide a response to you specifically, but I really would encourage you to move past the discomfort of lifting heavy. I love what lifting has done for my body so far, and I started when I was still obese. It was definitely intimidating for me, so I started going Sunday mornings when a lot of people are at church or hung over (and not looking at me in the weights section) or super early in the morning during the week.enterdanger wrote: »Hi Steve, Nice to meet you. I was wondering if you have any advice for a woman looking to get rid of belly fat after pregnancy. My 2nd son is 19 months old. I'm steadily losing a lb a week and seeing great results everywhere but the tummy. I've had 2 c-sections in the past 4 years.
People keep telling me that you can't lose from specific spots. I am in the overweight range still and haven't hit a healthy BMI yet. For exercise, I've been intimidated by weights and heavy lifting so I've stuck with running, eliptical, crunches, squats, and super basic weights on the bowflex type machines at the gym.
I still need to lose everywhere, but it would be nice not to look like I'm 3 months pregnant.
I have a long way to go, but I'm liking what's happening (these were from the day before I started lifting; I'd already lost about 50lbs):
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You can click on anyone's user name and read their profile info, just as an fyi.activefatgirl wrote: »Bump! I don't want to be rude, but I don't know who you are and I feel like I need to know.. please tell me that is my question... Who are you?
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stroutman81 wrote: »
But the point is, most women would do a heck of a lot better if they relaxed, inserted some sanity into their lives, and stopped doing the equivalent of punching themselves in the face every single day with excessive cardio, dieting, anxiety, and stress.
This being said what would you advise women that only had 5-10 pounds to go whose goal is for re-comp, as far as calories? Keep at a deficit, or eat at maintenance and continue lifting so they could actually see the results of re-composition starting to take affect?0 -
why do my ankles, knees and feet make a symphony of clicking sounds when Im walking?
The general rule is, if it hurts, worry. If it doesn't, don't.
Sometimes it's tendons snapping over bones. Sometimes it's bone on bone. Sometimes it has to do with the synovial fluid around the joint and pressure. And I would wager we don't exactly know all the potential causes. And it's not something I stay abreast of really.
But again... if it's not bothering you... don't sweat it.
You should hear when I lift. Sounds like I'm standing on egg shells.
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WalkingAlong wrote: »activefatgirl wrote: »Bump! I don't want to be rude, but I don't know who you are and I feel like I need to know.. please tell me that is my question... Who are you?
Stroutman has a group here
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/8153-the-school-of-strout
and a website
http://body-improvements.com/
and is full of info0 -
enterdanger wrote: »Hi Steve, Nice to meet you. I was wondering if you have any advice for a woman looking to get rid of belly fat after pregnancy. My 2nd son is 19 months old. I'm steadily losing a lb a week and seeing great results everywhere but the tummy. I've had 2 c-sections in the past 4 years.
People keep telling me that you can't lose from specific spots. I am in the overweight range still and haven't hit a healthy BMI yet. For exercise, I've been intimidated by weights and heavy lifting so I've stuck with running, eliptical, crunches, squats, and super basic weights on the bowflex type machines at the gym.
I still need to lose everywhere, but it would be nice not to look like I'm 3 months pregnant.
Hi there
Two sons, huh? I'm three girls deep. Can we swap?
No seriously... what you've heard is true. You're not going to go rearranging the order your body is going to lose fat. Genetics will handle that and if you don't like the pattern... tough cookies. Your job is to continue doing what you're doing. Keep up the great rate of loss you have going on, expect the process to lose some of its linearity eventually, and keep grinding through.
Once you get to a leaner state, then reassess whether you're dealing with belly fat of excess skin.
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stroutman81 wrote: »Graelwyn75 wrote: »Interesting discussion on getting to a certain point of Leanness for females.
I hit around 11-12% bodyfat earlier in the year, and was not on a really stringent eating regime or anything, I simply trained fairly hard with a combination of boxing training, cycling and walking. But it took me to that point to see my upper abs starting to poke through a bit.
Are you female?
If so, how were you measuring your bodyfat? That's epicly low bf% for someone who's not really "eating stringently." I mean, some data suggests the neighborhood of 12% is the lower limit for females... since going below that would be sacrificing essential fat.But each time I manage to train myself down to that sort of bodyfat%, I totally fall off the wagon, in terms of both eating and training and find I just cannot sustain it.
If you're a female, it's really no wonder why. You can't take your body to the brink and expect it to agree with you. Our bodies are biologically hardwired to defend AGAINST extreme leanness. This hardwiring includes hormones and chemicals that act on your body - from your brain to your gut - and in physiological and psychological capacities - to reduce fat loss and increase hunger.
In a way, you can view it as sustainability reducing, hand in hand, along with level of leanness.
Of course there are going to be outliers who can seemingly get super lean without skipping a beat. But that's outliers - they "lay" outside of what pretty much anyone else can expect.I do have a sort of question... earlier this year, after 2 months off from the gym, due to a severe chest infection and during which I gained a fair amount of fat, I restarted training hard and within a month, even though I trained just as hard the year prior, and weighed more, my period stopped...for 7 months. I have absolutely no idea what might have caused it. My prolactin levels were elevated for a while, oestrogen was low, thought maybe I was going through an early menopause, but lo and behold, when I gained 6 Ibs over the course of a month back in August, they returned. (I stopped them at about 138Ibs, lost to about 132Ibs, and they came back when I gained back to 138, lol)
I find it odd, as the only other times I have ever lost my period, were when I dropped below 119Ibs (I am 5'10)
So, was this some sort of response to my swinging from low bodyfat to higher, then hitting the training hard again or what?
Haha, sorry... I'm replying as I read along. Obviously I have my answer about whether you're male or female.
Hard to say what's going on here.
The body changes over time and it's impossible to say you were training and eating exactly the same as you were a year prior. It might seem that way... but maybe you weren't.
Plus, you can't view the stress load from exercise and diet in isolation. The body isn't discriminatory against where stress is coming from. Stress is stress and after you pass a certain threshold, systemically, wonky and sometimes bad stuff can happen.
I'm no doctor and I'm not about to diagnose the causative variables that causes your amenorrhea. I'll say this, though. I wouldn't take the loss of your period lightly. It should be a warning that something is off and you're either beating up your body too much, you're lacking something nutritionally, or you could be dealing with a more serious condition.
Body fat was measured by two different trainers and also I had the guys in the eat train progress group assess based on photos I shared to be double sure as I doubted the numbers myself.
By not eating stringently I mean my diet was not totally clean although I did get over 100g protein per day and are mostly whole foods.
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activefatgirl wrote: »Bump! I don't want to be rude, but I don't know who you are and I feel like I need to know.. please tell me that is my question... Who are you?
Gasp! You don't know me? WTF!
Just kidding. The name's Steve Troutman.
I actually take pride in being one of the more obscure internet fitness personalities. Been around for a long, long time but I tend to stay obscure simply because I don't write all that much, I don't get involved in the circle jerk that is now the web-fitness industry, I don't sell products, and I don't really advertise. I focus on my family and my clients and when I do find free time I'd rather pop in a forum like this rather than go writing articles.
Granted, this is what I tell myself.
It could very well be that I'm confusing obscurity with unpopularity and people thinking my ideas are poop.
Either way though I'm happy.
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Awesome thread! Thank you. I will read through and see if I have any questions.
I do have one if you haven't gone through this: Any tips for sedentary people to get into exercise as far as types of things to do (i am 186 lbs) and starting a routine (To preserve lean muscle)
This goes against the grain, but honestly... do what makes you happiest. Or, at a minimum, what jives with you best for now. You're new to this. And good on you for setting out on this lifestyle.
When you're just starting out... pretty much ANYTHING can work.
You mention that you're interested in muscle preservation primarily. That requires some loading on your muscles that are above and beyond what they're accustomed to. But back to pretty much anything working... even in the research we see where sedentary people are placed on a WALKING program in response they realize muscle growth in their legs.
The point is, when you've been sedentary for a while, your threshold for muscle growth/preservation is low.
In an ideal world I'd say you're doing some form of resistance training a couple of times per week and a handful of conditioning sessions each week. But really, I'd "toe my way into the pool," if I were you, by doing whatever your heart desired.
As you get used to working out you can refine your approach and become a little more deliberate and specific.
Is this an annoying response? I feel like you're going to get down to this point and say, "That wasn't helpful at all... what do I need to do!?"0 -
I'll let Steve provide a response to you specifically, but I really would encourage you to move past the discomfort of lifting heavy. I love what lifting has done for my body so far, and I started when I was still obese. It was definitely intimidating for me, so I started going Sunday mornings when a lot of people are at church or hung over (and not looking at me in the weights section) or super early in the morning during the week.enterdanger wrote: »Hi Steve, Nice to meet you. I was wondering if you have any advice for a woman looking to get rid of belly fat after pregnancy. My 2nd son is 19 months old. I'm steadily losing a lb a week and seeing great results everywhere but the tummy. I've had 2 c-sections in the past 4 years.
People keep telling me that you can't lose from specific spots. I am in the overweight range still and haven't hit a healthy BMI yet. For exercise, I've been intimidated by weights and heavy lifting so I've stuck with running, eliptical, crunches, squats, and super basic weights on the bowflex type machines at the gym.
I still need to lose everywhere, but it would be nice not to look like I'm 3 months pregnant.
I have a long way to go, but I'm liking what's happening (these were from the day before I started lifting; I'd already lost about 50lbs):
Awesome story!
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »
But the point is, most women would do a heck of a lot better if they relaxed, inserted some sanity into their lives, and stopped doing the equivalent of punching themselves in the face every single day with excessive cardio, dieting, anxiety, and stress.
This being said what would you advise women that only had 5-10 pounds to go whose goal is for re-comp, as far as calories? Keep at a deficit, or eat at maintenance and continue lifting so they could actually see the results of re-composition starting to take affect?
If the goal is fat loss, a deficit needs to be in place. Simultaneous recomping isn't likely to happen when you're relatively lean and relatively trained. There's just no incentive for your body to add muscle and lose fat simultaneously.
Granted, I've seen it happen in relatively lean folks who are just starting out.
But that opportunity fades quickly as they start working out.
So deficit. Get the fat off with patience. Lift weights to preserve the muscle you have. And then reassess. If you still want more out of your physique. you can transition into a muscle building phase. If not, your objective is to find ways to cement or lock-in the progress forever (arguably the most challenging part).0 -
In to keep reading. Love this. Nice to meet you Steve!0
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Graelwyn75 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »Graelwyn75 wrote: »Interesting discussion on getting to a certain point of Leanness for females.
I hit around 11-12% bodyfat earlier in the year, and was not on a really stringent eating regime or anything, I simply trained fairly hard with a combination of boxing training, cycling and walking. But it took me to that point to see my upper abs starting to poke through a bit.
Are you female?
If so, how were you measuring your bodyfat? That's epicly low bf% for someone who's not really "eating stringently." I mean, some data suggests the neighborhood of 12% is the lower limit for females... since going below that would be sacrificing essential fat.But each time I manage to train myself down to that sort of bodyfat%, I totally fall off the wagon, in terms of both eating and training and find I just cannot sustain it.
If you're a female, it's really no wonder why. You can't take your body to the brink and expect it to agree with you. Our bodies are biologically hardwired to defend AGAINST extreme leanness. This hardwiring includes hormones and chemicals that act on your body - from your brain to your gut - and in physiological and psychological capacities - to reduce fat loss and increase hunger.
In a way, you can view it as sustainability reducing, hand in hand, along with level of leanness.
Of course there are going to be outliers who can seemingly get super lean without skipping a beat. But that's outliers - they "lay" outside of what pretty much anyone else can expect.I do have a sort of question... earlier this year, after 2 months off from the gym, due to a severe chest infection and during which I gained a fair amount of fat, I restarted training hard and within a month, even though I trained just as hard the year prior, and weighed more, my period stopped...for 7 months. I have absolutely no idea what might have caused it. My prolactin levels were elevated for a while, oestrogen was low, thought maybe I was going through an early menopause, but lo and behold, when I gained 6 Ibs over the course of a month back in August, they returned. (I stopped them at about 138Ibs, lost to about 132Ibs, and they came back when I gained back to 138, lol)
I find it odd, as the only other times I have ever lost my period, were when I dropped below 119Ibs (I am 5'10)
So, was this some sort of response to my swinging from low bodyfat to higher, then hitting the training hard again or what?
Haha, sorry... I'm replying as I read along. Obviously I have my answer about whether you're male or female.
Hard to say what's going on here.
The body changes over time and it's impossible to say you were training and eating exactly the same as you were a year prior. It might seem that way... but maybe you weren't.
Plus, you can't view the stress load from exercise and diet in isolation. The body isn't discriminatory against where stress is coming from. Stress is stress and after you pass a certain threshold, systemically, wonky and sometimes bad stuff can happen.
I'm no doctor and I'm not about to diagnose the causative variables that causes your amenorrhea. I'll say this, though. I wouldn't take the loss of your period lightly. It should be a warning that something is off and you're either beating up your body too much, you're lacking something nutritionally, or you could be dealing with a more serious condition.
Body fat was measured by two different trainers and also I had the guys in the eat train progress group assess based on photos I shared to be double sure as I doubted the numbers myself.
By not eating stringently I mean my diet was not totally clean although I did get over 100g protein per day and are mostly whole foods.
BF% measured by two different trainers is less accurate than BF% measured twice by the same trainer assuming everyone is experienced taking BF% readings.
But if the folks over at ETP agreed with the measurements... they're probably close.
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This discussion has been closed.
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