If eating trash makes us sick, why do we keep eating it?
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This thread was good for one thing.. helped me decide what to have for dinner
Chemical toxic non nutrient fried chicken and I will enjoy every bite0 -
DiabolicalColossus wrote: »But if we don't argue about minutiae, people can't sit there and feel superior about themselves.
They can't pat themselves on the back for not eating "junk" food without passive-aggressively saying nonsense like "not all foods are equal" and then talking out the other side of their mouth with "I don't think anyone needs to defend their choices, of course."
That's like saying: "You can eat that cookie if you want, but I won't, because it's not equal to this carrot."
The other person hears: "I'm better because I chose the carrot over the cookie."
It smacks of unnecessary smugness.
You are reading things in that weren't said, implied or even thought.
I did not think that. I didn't try to imply it. I certainly never said it.
You're insulting me for saying things you made up.0 -
Back in the day, we used to track calories on paper, using math. They used to have books that listed calorie and macro information, and you would have to look things up. The internet certainly makes it easier by leaps and bounds, but it's not impossible to do if you don't have internet access.
Not everyone has regular internet access to monitor their calories or get that basic education on nutrition. It requires a lot more effort and thus a much greater cost for them to get that education, even if they are willing to learn it.
The education is FREE to those willing to learn it. Anyone who is willing and committed can reduce portion sizes. And of course there are events where people finally get it (a heart attack, stroke, etc.) and then make changes. It really is going to come down to how much of a priority it really is to the person.
Let me just say that IF this were the case entirely, then inmates in penitentiaries should be obese.Chaotic_Weevil wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Moderation is the big word to stick to but there is science to it as well
Food companies are selling us drugs, sugar and salt.
They know that they can sell more and more.
The whole world is getting fat and ill as a result.
We crave them and we crave foods that contain them
I'm the worst, i love those foods and give me them all the time. I'm trying desperately to break the cycle but struggling and do give in to it occasionally.
No. People get fat and ill because they don't pay attention to what they're eating, are largely ignorant of their calorie limits and nutritional needs, and lack the personal accountability to ensure they don't go massively overboard.
Until people stop blaming external factors and accept that it's their own problem then things will not change.
Exactly this. Obesity is on the rise because people eat too much and move too little, and at the end of the day the decision to do that is made by you. It's very easy to make a villain out of the convenience food providers and producers, but at the end of the day you are the one making yourself fat. Not them.
I'm sorry but I call BS. You cannot fit obesity into a neat small little box. Sorry to break it to some of you guys, but for MANY people external factors ARE to blame. Individual responsibility is a part of it, but you are naïve if you think external factors don't play a major part. Every heard of food deserts? Places where access to nutritionally rich food is limited or nonexistent? Ever think about areas where there ARE no places for people to get out and "move" because it's too dangerous? They can't afford a fancy gym membership either. Ever think about people who are NOT educated and do not know any better about how to really eat properly? Ever think about sway that cultural values have over many people that lead them to truly believe that bigger is better and healthy?
The problem I have with MFP is that a lot of us have the luxury to take charge of our health and yes, in those cases we should know better and do better (even though I have to point out that we ALL know that junk food has an addictive quality to it and triggers our dopamine reward system). But, the world is a big place. Saying obesity is on the rise because people eat too much and move too little does NOT apply to everyone.
They DON'T get nutritionally rich foods. Nor do they live in "safe" areas. They don't have gyms (most penitentiaries have removed weights). Many inmates have very average intelligence.
So why are so many thin and some very fit? Well because their calorie intake is basically restricted.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's not really a fair comparison. In your scenario, their calories are restricted for them. They don't have to use willpower to limit their portions or educate themselves about calories and nutrition to figure out appropriate portion sizes.
In the scenario that dp1228 is referring to getting the education and the willpower to reduce portion sizes can be incredibly challenging. Particularly in a context where food might be a big part of how they cope with living in difficult circumstances, nobody else is educated on the matter and nobody else really cares about reducing their portion sizes.
Very few people will beat the odds to lose weight in those circumstances on their own, it might be simple logistically to do so but its incredibly difficult practically without changing the environment.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I just want you all to know that tonight I am attending the county fair. And I am going to eat ALL THE FOODS. Most of them will be fried. I will also be eating one huge slab of fried dough, which is white bread fried and topped with butter and cinnamon and sugar. I don't think it contains a single micronutrient. And I will be happy.
Those of you who shun such nectar of the gods can just sit their in your righteous indignation and be sad.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »Sometimes, it's not all about what you can see. Being buff, skinny, fit, obese, chubby doesn't matter. It's about what's happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. Hubby was 140lbs and 5'7" when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 10 years ago. Who knew! Kids are going into emergency rooms getting diagnosed with type 2 but look otherwise perfectly healthy!
Good luck in your ventures, guys! I wish you all the best and I hope the OP will have a chance to read what has been said and try it for himself, if he is truly seeking understanding and health improvement.
That's called *kitten* happens. One of the healthiest guys I've known in my life was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was an avid cyclist, big into local produce and health before it became "cool" to buy organic, never smoked, never drank, and yet he died around the age of 50. No matter what you eat or don't eat, there are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is enjoy yourself and try to minimize your risk of illness.
But you're delusional if you think you'll be immune from cancer, diabetes and the like just because you avoid processed foods and gluten. Then again though, some people need to delude themselves because the reality is a bit too harsh, so maybe that's not a bad thing.
People judge but don't want to be judged..
I did not say I think this will make us immune from cancer and disease but what I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases, if you refrain from junk food and feed your body what it should have.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I have had my fair share and then some of loss and reality. Those who can see my heart (thank you for the messages) are what keeps me going. It's not discouraging at all to receive such backlash, it empowers me to go out and learn more in hopes that one day, the world might be a healthier and happier place for us.
For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
Ok, now I'm really done, lol. Have a good day!!
While wikipedia is not the best source to cite, no-one has said that macronutrients are all that matter.
Going to post one of my favorite quotes - from an actual
"Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! - Eric Helms"
There are very few foods that actively are bad for you, medical conditions aside, and in reasonable doses.
Also, please do go out and learn more.
From what I get from her post is that macronutrients isn't everything. There is a very good case to be made from micronutrient dense food intake. Not from a weight/calorie count standpoint but from a health standpoint. If your statement above includes both macro and micro, you two are agreeing more than disagreeing.
My point was, no-one said it was. I am not agreeing with her at all however on most of her points. She seems to think that non-nutrient foods are toxic or something. They are not. She also seems to think that fast food has no nutrients at all - which is ludicrous.
I only read her last quote that seems to summarize her point.
1) I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases
You agree or disagree?
2) For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
You agree or disagree?
I didn't read the wiki but I tend to agree with both of her statements. In a general sense.
I'm not sure if she is saying junk foods are toxic or not vs them being very micronutrient lacking. And there is probably a bunch of ingredients in various junk foods that aren't particularly great for you but that is merely my opinion. And I'll quantify that by stating that the amount of junk food intake would have to be pretty high and often to make a difference.
Try reading the rest of her posts, then get back to us!
Why not try to find common ground vs trying to be combative all the time? what exactly do you disagree with from her summarizations?
I'd disagree that it's a fair summarization of what else she's said in this thread. We've gone from KFC is addictive, KFC chicken isn't even chicken, and, even more shocking, KFC is "better tasting than other forms of chicken" (I'm still in disbelief anyone actually thinks KFC is good, much less better than all other chicken)... to "nutrients are important." Of course no one disagree nutrients are important - but I'd certainly disagree that accurately summarizes all the other nonsense in this thread.
I would just say, I agree with those two statements in general but the rest of your jibber jabber doesn't make sense to me
Again...read her posts. The jibber jabber is a summary of the poster you are defending.
I'm not defending her. As I agree(with you) that some of her other comments don't make sense.
But I do agree on what she is attempting to portray as a summarization of her comments.
How about if I just asked you those questions as if I made them? W/O out any context or post history. ie.. solely standing on it's own? Basically I just want to know you stance on micronutrient intake and it's importance to you. I already know where you stand on macros and I agree completely. I'm no longer trying to get you on any common ground with the poster. Thanks.
So now you're just asking whether people think proper nutrition is important for overall health? When has anyone disputed that?
Read my statements again. I clearly ask her stance on micronutrients and how important she feels it is to HER.
I think she is an ITFYM advocate. Which is fine. I just want to know where micronutrients fit into her scale of importance.0 -
I'd disagree that it's a fair summarization of what else she's said in this thread. We've gone from KFC is addictive, KFC chicken isn't even chicken, and, even more shocking, KFC is "better tasting than other forms of chicken" (I'm still in disbelief anyone actually thinks KFC is good, much less better than all other chicken)... to "nutrients are important." Of course no one disagree nutrients are important - but I'd certainly disagree that accurately summarizes all the other nonsense in this thread.
This. And I'm glad others had the same reaction to the comment about KFC that I did. Bizarre.
But perhaps I'm just "addicted" to my own roasted chicken. I wonder how, as I think I'd know if I included "additives."
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DiabolicalColossus wrote: »But if we don't argue about minutiae, people can't sit there and feel superior about themselves.
They can't pat themselves on the back for not eating "junk" food without passive-aggressively saying nonsense like "not all foods are equal" and then talking out the other side of their mouth with "I don't think anyone needs to defend their choices, of course."
That's like saying: "You can eat that cookie if you want, but I won't, because it's not equal to this carrot."
The other person hears: "I'm better because I chose the carrot over the cookie."
It smacks of unnecessary smugness.
You are reading things in that weren't said, implied or even thought.
I did not think that. I didn't try to imply it. I certainly never said it.
You're insulting me for saying things you made up.
So, pretty much what you were doing when stating that individuals are discouraging healthy eating?0 -
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MyChocolateDiet wrote: »Whatever your food preferences are for weight loss, the way to stick to it is planning. You have to PLAN to have the foods you've chosen for your plan around you all day long. You also have to PLAN not to be around the one's you don't want to use for your weight loss or at least not be without something you want to eat whenever the foods you don't want will be or might be around.
So true. This more than anything may sum up the difference in my eating habits now vs a year ago. I plan in advance and log/track before I eat. If I want the junk food, I have to find a way to make it fit in the plan, or accept the fact that I'm deviating from the plan for reasons that have nothing to do with my weight loss goals.
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diannethegeek wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »Sometimes, it's not all about what you can see. Being buff, skinny, fit, obese, chubby doesn't matter. It's about what's happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. Hubby was 140lbs and 5'7" when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 10 years ago. Who knew! Kids are going into emergency rooms getting diagnosed with type 2 but look otherwise perfectly healthy!
Good luck in your ventures, guys! I wish you all the best and I hope the OP will have a chance to read what has been said and try it for himself, if he is truly seeking understanding and health improvement.
That's called *kitten* happens. One of the healthiest guys I've known in my life was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was an avid cyclist, big into local produce and health before it became "cool" to buy organic, never smoked, never drank, and yet he died around the age of 50. No matter what you eat or don't eat, there are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is enjoy yourself and try to minimize your risk of illness.
But you're delusional if you think you'll be immune from cancer, diabetes and the like just because you avoid processed foods and gluten. Then again though, some people need to delude themselves because the reality is a bit too harsh, so maybe that's not a bad thing.
People judge but don't want to be judged..
I did not say I think this will make us immune from cancer and disease but what I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases, if you refrain from junk food and feed your body what it should have.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I have had my fair share and then some of loss and reality. Those who can see my heart (thank you for the messages) are what keeps me going. It's not discouraging at all to receive such backlash, it empowers me to go out and learn more in hopes that one day, the world might be a healthier and happier place for us.
For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
Ok, now I'm really done, lol. Have a good day!!
Here's the thing about moderation, though. It's possible to eat fast food and to also feed your body 100% of the nutrients that it should have. This isn't always an either/or scenario.
Again - didn't say it was an either/or scenario. Nor did I say it must be perfect and 100% of the time.
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I didn't call anyone names.DiabolicalColossus wrote: »But if we don't argue about minutiae, people can't sit there and feel superior about themselves.
They can't pat themselves on the back for not eating "junk" food without passive-aggressively saying nonsense like "not all foods are equal" and then talking out the other side of their mouth with "I don't think anyone needs to defend their choices, of course."
That's like saying: "You can eat that cookie if you want, but I won't, because it's not equal to this carrot."
The other person hears: "I'm better because I chose the carrot over the cookie."
It smacks of unnecessary smugness.
You are reading things in that weren't said, implied or even thought.
I did not think that. I didn't try to imply it. I certainly never said it.
You're insulting me for saying things you made up.
So, pretty much what you were doing when stating that individuals are discouraging healthy eating?
I didn't insult anyone.
I wasn't sarcastically or even facetiously mean.
No mocking. No bragging.
Nothing between the lines. Promise.0 -
Back in the day, we used to track calories on paper, using math. They used to have books that listed calorie and macro information, and you would have to look things up. The internet certainly makes it easier by leaps and bounds, but it's not impossible to do if you don't have internet access.
Not everyone has regular internet access to monitor their calories or get that basic education on nutrition. It requires a lot more effort and thus a much greater cost for them to get that education, even if they are willing to learn it.
The education is FREE to those willing to learn it. Anyone who is willing and committed can reduce portion sizes. And of course there are events where people finally get it (a heart attack, stroke, etc.) and then make changes. It really is going to come down to how much of a priority it really is to the person.
Let me just say that IF this were the case entirely, then inmates in penitentiaries should be obese.Chaotic_Weevil wrote: »herrspoons wrote: »Moderation is the big word to stick to but there is science to it as well
Food companies are selling us drugs, sugar and salt.
They know that they can sell more and more.
The whole world is getting fat and ill as a result.
We crave them and we crave foods that contain them
I'm the worst, i love those foods and give me them all the time. I'm trying desperately to break the cycle but struggling and do give in to it occasionally.
No. People get fat and ill because they don't pay attention to what they're eating, are largely ignorant of their calorie limits and nutritional needs, and lack the personal accountability to ensure they don't go massively overboard.
Until people stop blaming external factors and accept that it's their own problem then things will not change.
Exactly this. Obesity is on the rise because people eat too much and move too little, and at the end of the day the decision to do that is made by you. It's very easy to make a villain out of the convenience food providers and producers, but at the end of the day you are the one making yourself fat. Not them.
I'm sorry but I call BS. You cannot fit obesity into a neat small little box. Sorry to break it to some of you guys, but for MANY people external factors ARE to blame. Individual responsibility is a part of it, but you are naïve if you think external factors don't play a major part. Every heard of food deserts? Places where access to nutritionally rich food is limited or nonexistent? Ever think about areas where there ARE no places for people to get out and "move" because it's too dangerous? They can't afford a fancy gym membership either. Ever think about people who are NOT educated and do not know any better about how to really eat properly? Ever think about sway that cultural values have over many people that lead them to truly believe that bigger is better and healthy?
The problem I have with MFP is that a lot of us have the luxury to take charge of our health and yes, in those cases we should know better and do better (even though I have to point out that we ALL know that junk food has an addictive quality to it and triggers our dopamine reward system). But, the world is a big place. Saying obesity is on the rise because people eat too much and move too little does NOT apply to everyone.
They DON'T get nutritionally rich foods. Nor do they live in "safe" areas. They don't have gyms (most penitentiaries have removed weights). Many inmates have very average intelligence.
So why are so many thin and some very fit? Well because their calorie intake is basically restricted.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
That's not really a fair comparison. In your scenario, their calories are restricted for them. They don't have to use willpower to limit their portions or educate themselves about calories and nutrition to figure out appropriate portion sizes.
In the scenario that dp1228 is referring to getting the education and the willpower to reduce portion sizes can be incredibly challenging. Particularly in a context where food might be a big part of how they cope with living in difficult circumstances, nobody else is educated on the matter and nobody else really cares about reducing their portion sizes.
Very few people will beat the odds to lose weight in those circumstances on their own, it might be simple logistically to do so but its incredibly difficult practically without changing the environment.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I don't think it's impossible by any means but it will be a lot harder. You need basic math and literacy skills to track in the way you describe and a lot of people in difficult environments don't have those skills.0 -
Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).0 -
So, really, it means nothing until the person using the word explains their definition of "a moderate amount."
I don't really use the term "moderation" much for my own diet (and let's not get into politics), but as I said in the other thread I don't actually think it's hard to define, although it is subjective.
It means eating a food in a "non excessive" manner. What is excessive? Well, we are talking about health and nutrition, so excessive would mean in a way that is contrary to the goals of good health and nutrition.
To use a common question as an example, there always seem to be a number of people worried that they are eating fruit in excess, usually because their sugar numbers are above some MFP goal. IMO, fruit is being eating in excess (or not in "moderation") if you eat so much that it causes you harm (perhaps because you are diabetic) or crowds out other foods you also should be eating (you don't get enough protein or micros from veggies or other foods) or causes you to overeat. If none of those are true, and you just happen to like fruit and eat it in lieu of neutral foods (like all the grains the old food pyramid was so enthusiastic about) or other "extra" foods that would make up your overall calorie needs for the day, while getting enough enough of the other things you need, but just happen to go over your "sugar limit" as a result, so what? I still think that's moderate. It's all context.
The problem with "clean" IMO is not that it's subjective, but that it (a) means contradictory things, and (b) takes a word that means something specific and applies it to in essence insult the foods you don't choose to eat and those who eat them. Plus, in a food context it's essentially a religious term and demonstrates that there's a weirdly religious aspect to how some approach food.
And I say this as someone who can fetishize whole foods and the "natural" too. I just try to be self-aware of it and to realize it's my quirk and not some real issue of nutrition or purity. For many eating more processed foods (like the Nutrigrain bars you sometimes recommend) may be helpful to their nutrition goals, even though it would not be to mine. That's great.0 -
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GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »Sometimes, it's not all about what you can see. Being buff, skinny, fit, obese, chubby doesn't matter. It's about what's happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. Hubby was 140lbs and 5'7" when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 10 years ago. Who knew! Kids are going into emergency rooms getting diagnosed with type 2 but look otherwise perfectly healthy!
Good luck in your ventures, guys! I wish you all the best and I hope the OP will have a chance to read what has been said and try it for himself, if he is truly seeking understanding and health improvement.
That's called *kitten* happens. One of the healthiest guys I've known in my life was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was an avid cyclist, big into local produce and health before it became "cool" to buy organic, never smoked, never drank, and yet he died around the age of 50. No matter what you eat or don't eat, there are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is enjoy yourself and try to minimize your risk of illness.
But you're delusional if you think you'll be immune from cancer, diabetes and the like just because you avoid processed foods and gluten. Then again though, some people need to delude themselves because the reality is a bit too harsh, so maybe that's not a bad thing.
People judge but don't want to be judged..
I did not say I think this will make us immune from cancer and disease but what I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases, if you refrain from junk food and feed your body what it should have.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I have had my fair share and then some of loss and reality. Those who can see my heart (thank you for the messages) are what keeps me going. It's not discouraging at all to receive such backlash, it empowers me to go out and learn more in hopes that one day, the world might be a healthier and happier place for us.
For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
Ok, now I'm really done, lol. Have a good day!!
Here's the thing about moderation, though. It's possible to eat fast food and to also feed your body 100% of the nutrients that it should have. This isn't always an either/or scenario.
Again - didn't say it was an either/or scenario. Nor did I say it must be perfect and 100% of the time.
The backpeddaling has begun0 -
GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »TavistockToad wrote: »
Lol
Lol to the pic of pandas that isn't showing now.. Not laughing at anyone, don't worry!
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JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).
Ridiculous. We aren't wired to just blindly do things like overeat, we're higher minded to do things like reason. Some animals will overeat if you put a full bowl of food down for them all the time, so you just put enough for them in a feeding. Perhaps you need a feeder if you aren't able to reason it out for yourself? It's an excuse to fall back on the "I can't make myself stop" reason. You can, you just choose not to. Your body isn't "hard wired" to love fat, sugar and salt. Be an adult and tell yourself no. When you were a child, your parents did that for you. Now you have to do that for yourself. Half of the problem with this country is that people aren't emotionally maturing enough to act like adults when they move out on their own, and it's too easy to say "I can't".0 -
JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point.
I don't do what the OP stated with food currently, but I think I and others got the point and responded. It's just that this thread hasn't been about the OP's post for some time, but got thrown off topic by ridiculousness about undefined junk food being addictive due to unspecified additives and mutant chickens that taste amazing. Or something like that.0 -
I leave for three hours and things escalate. And FTR, KFC is terrible and I'm glad they closed here.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »The problem with "clean" IMO is not that it's subjective, but that it (a) means contradictory things, and (b) takes a word that means something specific and applies it to in essence insult the foods you don't choose to eat and those who eat them. Plus, in a food context it's essentially a religious term and demonstrates that there's a weirdly religious aspect to how some approach food.
+1
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DiabolicalColossus wrote: »But if we don't argue about minutiae, people can't sit there and feel superior about themselves.
They can't pat themselves on the back for not eating "junk" food without passive-aggressively saying nonsense like "not all foods are equal" and then talking out the other side of their mouth with "I don't think anyone needs to defend their choices, of course."
That's like saying: "You can eat that cookie if you want, but I won't, because it's not equal to this carrot."
The other person hears: "I'm better because I chose the carrot over the cookie."
It smacks of unnecessary smugness.
You are reading things in that weren't said, implied or even thought.
I did not think that. I didn't try to imply it. I certainly never said it.
You're insulting me for saying things you made up.
Oh, I've seen your handiwork before.
I remember you quite well from when I used to lurk the forums.
You're the one who usually starts whinging about how people discourage "healthy eating".
And how the moderation crowd is afraid that "someone will try to take their donuts away".
I'm tickled that you're insulted, since I didn't even say anything remotely insulting to you.
But I suppose the truth of how you might be perceived could be hurtful.
Good.
You write your own bollocks well enough on your own.
You certainly don't require my help.-3 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »Sometimes, it's not all about what you can see. Being buff, skinny, fit, obese, chubby doesn't matter. It's about what's happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. Hubby was 140lbs and 5'7" when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 10 years ago. Who knew! Kids are going into emergency rooms getting diagnosed with type 2 but look otherwise perfectly healthy!
Good luck in your ventures, guys! I wish you all the best and I hope the OP will have a chance to read what has been said and try it for himself, if he is truly seeking understanding and health improvement.
That's called *kitten* happens. One of the healthiest guys I've known in my life was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was an avid cyclist, big into local produce and health before it became "cool" to buy organic, never smoked, never drank, and yet he died around the age of 50. No matter what you eat or don't eat, there are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is enjoy yourself and try to minimize your risk of illness.
But you're delusional if you think you'll be immune from cancer, diabetes and the like just because you avoid processed foods and gluten. Then again though, some people need to delude themselves because the reality is a bit too harsh, so maybe that's not a bad thing.
People judge but don't want to be judged..
I did not say I think this will make us immune from cancer and disease but what I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases, if you refrain from junk food and feed your body what it should have.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I have had my fair share and then some of loss and reality. Those who can see my heart (thank you for the messages) are what keeps me going. It's not discouraging at all to receive such backlash, it empowers me to go out and learn more in hopes that one day, the world might be a healthier and happier place for us.
For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
Ok, now I'm really done, lol. Have a good day!!
While wikipedia is not the best source to cite, no-one has said that macronutrients are all that matter.
Going to post one of my favorite quotes - from an actual
"Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! - Eric Helms"
There are very few foods that actively are bad for you, medical conditions aside, and in reasonable doses.
Also, please do go out and learn more.
From what I get from her post is that macronutrients isn't everything. There is a very good case to be made from micronutrient dense food intake. Not from a weight/calorie count standpoint but from a health standpoint. If your statement above includes both macro and micro, you two are agreeing more than disagreeing.
My point was, no-one said it was. I am not agreeing with her at all however on most of her points. She seems to think that non-nutrient foods are toxic or something. They are not. She also seems to think that fast food has no nutrients at all - which is ludicrous.
I only read her last quote that seems to summarize her point.
1) I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases
You agree or disagree?
2) For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
You agree or disagree?
I didn't read the wiki but I tend to agree with both of her statements. In a general sense.
I'm not sure if she is saying junk foods are toxic or not vs them being very micronutrient lacking. And there is probably a bunch of ingredients in various junk foods that aren't particularly great for you but that is merely my opinion. And I'll quantify that by stating that the amount of junk food intake would have to be pretty high and often to make a difference.
Try reading the rest of her posts, then get back to us!
Why not try to find common ground vs trying to be combative all the time? what exactly do you disagree with from her summarizations?
I'd disagree that it's a fair summarization of what else she's said in this thread. We've gone from KFC is addictive, KFC chicken isn't even chicken, and, even more shocking, KFC is "better tasting than other forms of chicken" (I'm still in disbelief anyone actually thinks KFC is good, much less better than all other chicken)... to "nutrients are important." Of course no one disagree nutrients are important - but I'd certainly disagree that accurately summarizes all the other nonsense in this thread.
I would just say, I agree with those two statements in general but the rest of your jibber jabber doesn't make sense to me
Again...read her posts. The jibber jabber is a summary of the poster you are defending.
I'm not defending her. As I agree(with you) that some of her other comments don't make sense.
But I do agree on what she is attempting to portray as a summarization of her comments.
How about if I just asked you those questions as if I made them? W/O out any context or post history. ie.. solely standing on it's own? Basically I just want to know you stance on micronutrient intake and it's importance to you. I already know where you stand on macros and I agree completely. I'm no longer trying to get you on any common ground with the poster. Thanks.
I am surprised you are not aware of my stance on micros tbh.
In answer to your question - yes, micronutrients are of course important. You should look at the diet as a whole as to whether you are getting a good amount of them. Generally speaking, I advocate eating a good amount of nutrient dense foods. It's fine to eat less nutrient dense foods also. One does not negate the other, nor are they mutually exclusive.
0 -
JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).
So the forum isn't for people who have learned willpower and how to control their urges? Personally I would think those are the people you'd want around on a weight loss forum, not just a bunch of people who lack control of their own actions sympathizing with each other.0 -
JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »JeffseekingV wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »GenesiaElizabeth wrote: »Sometimes, it's not all about what you can see. Being buff, skinny, fit, obese, chubby doesn't matter. It's about what's happening on the inside of your body that you can't see. Hubby was 140lbs and 5'7" when he was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes 10 years ago. Who knew! Kids are going into emergency rooms getting diagnosed with type 2 but look otherwise perfectly healthy!
Good luck in your ventures, guys! I wish you all the best and I hope the OP will have a chance to read what has been said and try it for himself, if he is truly seeking understanding and health improvement.
That's called *kitten* happens. One of the healthiest guys I've known in my life was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He was an avid cyclist, big into local produce and health before it became "cool" to buy organic, never smoked, never drank, and yet he died around the age of 50. No matter what you eat or don't eat, there are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is enjoy yourself and try to minimize your risk of illness.
But you're delusional if you think you'll be immune from cancer, diabetes and the like just because you avoid processed foods and gluten. Then again though, some people need to delude themselves because the reality is a bit too harsh, so maybe that's not a bad thing.
People judge but don't want to be judged..
I did not say I think this will make us immune from cancer and disease but what I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases, if you refrain from junk food and feed your body what it should have.
If you knew me personally, you would know that I have had my fair share and then some of loss and reality. Those who can see my heart (thank you for the messages) are what keeps me going. It's not discouraging at all to receive such backlash, it empowers me to go out and learn more in hopes that one day, the world might be a healthier and happier place for us.
For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
Ok, now I'm really done, lol. Have a good day!!
While wikipedia is not the best source to cite, no-one has said that macronutrients are all that matter.
Going to post one of my favorite quotes - from an actual
"Once our nutrient needs are met, we don’t get extra credit for eating more nutritious food! - Eric Helms"
There are very few foods that actively are bad for you, medical conditions aside, and in reasonable doses.
Also, please do go out and learn more.
From what I get from her post is that macronutrients isn't everything. There is a very good case to be made from micronutrient dense food intake. Not from a weight/calorie count standpoint but from a health standpoint. If your statement above includes both macro and micro, you two are agreeing more than disagreeing.
My point was, no-one said it was. I am not agreeing with her at all however on most of her points. She seems to think that non-nutrient foods are toxic or something. They are not. She also seems to think that fast food has no nutrients at all - which is ludicrous.
I only read her last quote that seems to summarize her point.
1) I did say is that it can and likely will improve your overall quality of life and even reverse certain diseases
You agree or disagree?
2) For those who think macronutrients (fat, carbs, protein) are all that matters, have a read about what a nutrient actually is and how it's more than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutrient
You agree or disagree?
I didn't read the wiki but I tend to agree with both of her statements. In a general sense.
I'm not sure if she is saying junk foods are toxic or not vs them being very micronutrient lacking. And there is probably a bunch of ingredients in various junk foods that aren't particularly great for you but that is merely my opinion. And I'll quantify that by stating that the amount of junk food intake would have to be pretty high and often to make a difference.
Try reading the rest of her posts, then get back to us!
Why not try to find common ground vs trying to be combative all the time? what exactly do you disagree with from her summarizations?
I'd disagree that it's a fair summarization of what else she's said in this thread. We've gone from KFC is addictive, KFC chicken isn't even chicken, and, even more shocking, KFC is "better tasting than other forms of chicken" (I'm still in disbelief anyone actually thinks KFC is good, much less better than all other chicken)... to "nutrients are important." Of course no one disagree nutrients are important - but I'd certainly disagree that accurately summarizes all the other nonsense in this thread.
I would just say, I agree with those two statements in general but the rest of your jibber jabber doesn't make sense to me
Again...read her posts. The jibber jabber is a summary of the poster you are defending.
I'm not defending her. As I agree(with you) that some of her other comments don't make sense.
But I do agree on what she is attempting to portray as a summarization of her comments.
How about if I just asked you those questions as if I made them? W/O out any context or post history. ie.. solely standing on it's own? Basically I just want to know you stance on micronutrient intake and it's importance to you. I already know where you stand on macros and I agree completely. I'm no longer trying to get you on any common ground with the poster. Thanks.
I am surprised you are not aware of my stance on micros tbh.
In answer to your question - yes, micronutrients are of course important. You should look at the diet as a whole as to whether you are getting a good amount of them. Generally speaking, I advocate eating a good amount of nutrient dense foods. It's fine to eat less nutrient dense foods also. One does not negate the other, nor are they mutually exclusive.
Thank you. I understand that as a ITFYM programmer, you probably adhere to this more than trying to take in a specific xx amount of micros. Which is fine as long as one tries to take in whatever amount of micros they feel is important while maintaining your macro settings.
All while fitting in fried chicken 0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »So, really, it means nothing until the person using the word explains their definition of "a moderate amount."
I don't really use the term "moderation" much for my own diet (and let's not get into politics), but as I said in the other thread I don't actually think it's hard to define, although it is subjective.
It means eating a food in a "non excessive" manner. What is excessive? Well, we are talking about health and nutrition, so excessive would mean in a way that is contrary to the goals of good health and nutrition.
To use a common question as an example, there always seem to be a number of people worried that they are eating fruit in excess, usually because their sugar numbers are above some MFP goal. IMO, fruit is being eating in excess (or not in "moderation") is you eat so much that you are eating more than the calories you should be (you are gaining weight if you shouldn't or not losing if weight loss is your goal), getting less protein than you should be, or less overall nutrients than you should be. If none of those are true, and you just happen to like fruit and eat it in lieu of all the grains recommended by the old food pyramid, say, and go over your "sugar limit" as a result, so what? I still think that's moderate. It's all context.
The problem with "clean" IMO is not that it's subjective, but that it (a) means contradictory things, and (b) takes a word that means something specific and applies it to in essence insult the foods you don't choose to eat and those who eat them. Plus, in a food context it's essentially a religious term and demonstrates that there's a weirdly religious aspect to how some approach food.
And I say this as someone who can fetishize whole foods and the "natural" too. I just try to be self-aware of it and to realize it's my quirk and not some real issue of nutrition or purity. For many eating more processed foods (like the Nutrigrain bars you sometimes recommend) may be helpful to their nutrition goals, even though it would not be to mine. That's great.
I have never recommended a Nutrigrain bar. I don't eat them. I don't know what is in them or if they're good. I do eat Nature Valley Crunchy Granola bars (except cinnamon.) Do I recommend them a lot? I didn't know that, lol. They are VERY filling and yummy. When I ate no other fat, I ate those with my vitamins. It's one thing I never gave up. They are so good!
I did not see this thread everyone thinks I've seen. I don't know what politics are involved or even exactly what you mean by that. Today is not the first time I've suggested that we have no definitions for the words "clean" and "moderation", lol. It's not even the first week or month.
All these cries of, "It's okay to eat it in moderation!" ... just drop the "in moderation." It's okay to eat it. Everyone can eat whatever they want, even if it's not good for them. It's also okay to eat a totally healthy diet, with absolutely no processed foods. Grow all your own food. Eat only McDonald's.
Nobody is a better or worse person because they eat ribs or don't eat ice cream or whatever.0 -
JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).
So the forum isn't for people who have learned willpower and how to control their urges? Personally I would think those are the people you'd want around on a weight loss forum, not just a bunch of people who lack control of their own actions sympathizing with each other.
All I'm saying is, if you go back to the OP's first post, he's asking a question: why do people overeat when it hurts them and they know it's bad for them. Saying things like "take responsibility for yourself" and "moderation is key" are not answering the question. That is all I am trying to communicate.0 -
JustinAnimal wrote: »JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).
So the forum isn't for people who have learned willpower and how to control their urges? Personally I would think those are the people you'd want around on a weight loss forum, not just a bunch of people who lack control of their own actions sympathizing with each other.
All I'm saying is, if you go back to the OP's first post, he's asking a question: why do people overeat when it hurts them and they know it's bad for them. Saying things like "take responsibility for yourself" and "moderation is key" are not answering the question. That is all I am trying to communicate.
So what should be said then?0 -
JustinAnimal wrote: »JustinAnimal wrote: »Yeah, I feel like people aren't getting the OP's point. If you don't eat a ton of junk food, feel bad about it, and then go back for more, then this forum isn't for you. If you've got moderation and that's the answer, this forum isn't for you.
OP, I sympathize. I'm like a dog. Or just an idiot. I can overeat repeatedly and, the next night, go back for more and do it to myself again. Same with drinking; apparently, hangovers aren't enough to teach me that lesson. I don't have a great answer other than it tastes great! I also think our bodies are hard-wired to love fat, salt and sugar (I believe that theory, anyway).
So the forum isn't for people who have learned willpower and how to control their urges? Personally I would think those are the people you'd want around on a weight loss forum, not just a bunch of people who lack control of their own actions sympathizing with each other.
All I'm saying is, if you go back to the OP's first post, he's asking a question: why do people overeat when it hurts them and they know it's bad for them. Saying things like "take responsibility for yourself" and "moderation is key" are not answering the question. That is all I am trying to communicate.
So what should be said then?
I guess answers to the question. That's why I said earlier, if this isn't a problem for you, you probably don't have a direct answer to his question. Am I missing something here?0
This discussion has been closed.
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