Eating at restaurants used to be fun, now it's kind of stressful.
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Those of us in favor of calorie counts are NOT anti-personal responsibility. What we want is the opportunity to exercise our personal responsibility with the information that is important to us.
I would argue that the person boycotting a restaurant because they don't want to see calories on the menu is the person avoiding personal responsibility. Nothing like willfully burying your head in the sand because you don't want to acknowledge to yourself that yes, you just ate two days worth of calories in an hour and a half.
It's not burying your head in the sand when you actually understand nutrition and can make wise decisions without them giving you bogus nutritional information.
"Bogus", eh. Where laws for this exist, restaurants will have to do their best to be accurate. And even if they're off, they can't be more off than 80% of mfp users.
You'd think these Personal Responsibility MFPers wouldn't need to resort to digital scales, or refer to a massive database and the support of thousands of users.
Losing weight is easy, when you use your Personal Responsibility X-Ray Eyes. Amazing!
Packaged items already have a 20% margin of error, do you really think commercial kitchens will even be that close?
Your argument that personal responsibility doesn't mean using tools available is just grasping at straws. Losing weight is easy when you use common sense and that is what is lacking along with personal responsibility.
Your argument that it's vitally important to refuse available tools, like information, is what's grasping here.
You are asking for something that won't provide you with 100% quality food throughout. Ingredients don't come from a factory, but they change from batch to batch. This means a good kitchen improvises and works with what they have.
In other words, if you want them to follow a standardised cooking process, you can be sure you won't get top-notch food. Which translates to less value for your money. Again, this would never be my choice when I go through the trouble of having someone else prepare on my behalf the food I eat.0 -
Not sure why I'm jumping in at this point but just wanted.to comment that in addition to agreeing that its ridiculous to expect non chain establishments to provide this information, what would the average consumer do with the info without context or an understanding of caloric goals, etc. I don't have numbers but I would assume the majority of people don't count calories. Look how many people here every day have difficulty understanding the basic principles.of CICO and how their TDEE influences the equation. If you provided calorie info on restaurant meals, besides likely being inaccurate based on the way commercial kitchens operate, how would a diner use that other than a means of comparing two meals in that particular context?
comparing a higher number to a lower one, and choosing the lower one, is a move in the right direction.
Why? The lower calorie option may not always be the best choice. Again, not every person has the same goals, and you don't know what else that person may have eaten that day.
Have you heard the phrase "calories in, calories out"? The larger goal is to reduce obesity, yes?
But it's not up to me to tell people what to eat. That's their personal decision they take personal responsibility for. All I'm saying is they should have the information to make that decision.
Yes I've heard of calories in calories out which is why I used the abbreviation CICO in my post. My point is that not everyone needs to lose weight and that to be most successful with CICO you need to understand the CO part of the equation so if the average diner doesn't have more of the numbers, knowing that the strip steak has 900 cals while the caesar salad has 700 doesn't really address all the variables...
Bottom line, not everyone wants or needs to count calories. Having the info available at chain restaurants may pique someones interest enough to get them to start doing research and find their way to MFP or another tool. That's actually how I got.started, had a restaurant meal that seemed excessive and was curious how many cals I had eaten. I stumbled on MFP and have logged for 676 days ever since. I didnt need it on the menu, when I was ready I found what I was looking for amd use the tools available to me in order to be successful.
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BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Those of us in favor of calorie counts are NOT anti-personal responsibility. What we want is the opportunity to exercise our personal responsibility with the information that is important to us.
I would argue that the person boycotting a restaurant because they don't want to see calories on the menu is the person avoiding personal responsibility. Nothing like willfully burying your head in the sand because you don't want to acknowledge to yourself that yes, you just ate two days worth of calories in an hour and a half.
wait- that's not how you prep a steak?
<PULLS HAIR> I"VE BEEN DOING IT WRONG FOR SO LONG!!!!0 -
BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Those of us in favor of calorie counts are NOT anti-personal responsibility. What we want is the opportunity to exercise our personal responsibility with the information that is important to us.
I would argue that the person boycotting a restaurant because they don't want to see calories on the menu is the person avoiding personal responsibility. Nothing like willfully burying your head in the sand because you don't want to acknowledge to yourself that yes, you just ate two days worth of calories in an hour and a half.
wait- that's not how you prep a steak?
<PULLS HAIR> I"VE BEEN DOING IT WRONG FOR SO LONG!!!!
I ALWAYS prep my steak in butter. Hot sear on both sides, then throw it in the oven in that pain for a few minutes. Then take it out and let it rest. Butter topping optional
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In for butter steak... mmmm garlic butter on steak... mmmm0
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All I did was read the title of the thread...I totally know these feels.0
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GiveMeCoffee wrote: »GiveMeCoffee wrote: »BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Those of us in favor of calorie counts are NOT anti-personal responsibility. What we want is the opportunity to exercise our personal responsibility with the information that is important to us.
I would argue that the person boycotting a restaurant because they don't want to see calories on the menu is the person avoiding personal responsibility. Nothing like willfully burying your head in the sand because you don't want to acknowledge to yourself that yes, you just ate two days worth of calories in an hour and a half.
It's not burying your head in the sand when you actually understand nutrition and can make wise decisions without them giving you bogus nutritional information.
"Bogus", eh. Where laws for this exist, restaurants will have to do their best to be accurate. And even if they're off, they can't be more off than 80% of mfp users.
You'd think these Personal Responsibility MFPers wouldn't need to resort to digital scales, or refer to a massive database and the support of thousands of users.
Losing weight is easy, when you use your Personal Responsibility X-Ray Eyes. Amazing!
Packaged items already have a 20% margin of error, do you really think commercial kitchens will even be that close?
Your argument that personal responsibility doesn't mean using tools available is just grasping at straws. Losing weight is easy when you use common sense and that is what is lacking along with personal responsibility.
Your argument that it's vitally important to refuse available tools, like information, is what's grasping here.
You are asking for something that won't provide you with 100% quality food throughout. Ingredients don't come from a factory, but they change from batch to batch. This means a good kitchen improvises and works with what they have.
In other words, if you want them to follow a standardised cooking process, you can be sure you won't get top-notch food. Which translates to less value for your money. Again, this would never be my choice when I go through the trouble of having someone else prepare on my behalf the food I eat.
This is exactly correct. Mandating calorie counts for all restaurants would destroy innovation and lead the herd into more restaurant chains that serve pre-packaged, reheated meals. Bon appetit!
If you want calorie counts, go to restaurants that provide them. I won't take away your choice, you don't take away mine. Simple concept.0 -
my BF does all our steaks with butter- I pretend to not care- because I'm afraid of how much butter he uses LMAO.
seriously- it's quiet a bit of butter. And it's like a mouthgasm. So I don't care.0 -
my BF does all our steaks with butter- I pretend to not care- because I'm afraid of how much butter he uses LMAO.
seriously- it's quiet a bit of butter. And it's like a mouthgasm. So I don't care.
Yums.
And, as Angela said, you're not ingesting all that butter. It's really just adding some tenderness, flavor and a crust on the outside.0 -
seriously- you haven't lived till you've had a butter seared skirt steak.
omgherd.0 -
Maybe for you, not stressful for me. I can't weigh and measure everything so just gotta use proper judgement (protein + veggies). When in doubt, go without!!!-1
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we're doing dinner tonight- which means I'm on a budget today- I'll have a pre-workout and post workout snack probably then dinner at 6. - but yeah- steak and eggs for breakfast- it's a win. Haven't had that in a while... I have some london broil- I might make that on Friday morning. NOMNOMNOM's.0
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BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »
but you're already setting out with a piss poor attitude that some how because it's chalk full of delicious fat- it's unhealthy.... and you are negative to start "they decide how unhealthy they are going to make it? what does that even mean?? They aren't making healthy or unhealthy food- they are making food to sell- and hopefully it's delicious.
So you're saying unhealthy food is not delicious?
I just don't understand your fussiness with claiming it's "unhealthy" because it's got fat and sugar in it? or it's high calorie- or whatever it is that you're claiming unhealthy is (which can we narrow that definition down for me since you seem vague on that).
Of course they aren't going to be the same- no one said- but you pick one that's an average- and guess high.
And go on about your merry way.
Or, you know, they could just tell us what's in their product. Food costs for successful restaurants (and therefore, what is in the dish) are calculated very carefully. It doesn't seem like an excessive burden for a restaurant to share that information with the public.
Heck, MFP has recipe calculator that does the job just fine. The FDA or whatever regulatory body could put up an official calculator for mom and pop establishments and the chefs could whip out their calorie counts for the day in 5 minutes and then post them on their chalkboard right along with the day's specials.
I love the special pleading going on in this thread where 1) Mom and Pop establishments are changing their menu every day and it's too burdensome and 2) Mom and Pop establishments would have to reprint all their menus. You can have one problem, but not both. If your favorite restaurant is changing its menu every day it's either NOT reprinting its menu and has a chalkboard setup, or it IS reprinting its menu and adding the calorie counts costs nothing more than a few extra characters.
lol 5minutes.
The MFP database is so *kitten*, that it takes a lot longer to enter ONE recipe, let alone how many a restaurant would have to enter.
And guess what? Depending how you pack a cup of flour, it weighs between 4-5 ounces. And restaurants don't have the time to use a food scale so the exact weight of flour is used every single time. Same goes for sugar and many other dry ingredients.
You clearly don't spend THAT much time in the kitchen or on the MFP recipe builder if you think a restaurant came upload 2 dozen + recipes, if you think dish is the exact same every single time.
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/recipe_analysis.php
I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
I don't think the restaurants lie that much on their nutritional data. Yes, the amount of flour by cup may vary, but very few servings would have a full cup of flour, for example. I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..
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And, to other posters; No one knows how the food is prepared when they walk into a restaurant unless they work there. I was shocked to find out that the spagetti I ate was over 800 calories, with over 40 grams of fat. I can make pasta and sauce for myself at home for less than 400 calories and 5 grams of fat (and it tastes better - ever heard of oregano Denny?).
The nutritional data helps those of us who aren't pyschic to log their meals. And, some of the "personal responsibility" nazis are also logging nazis....How do we log every lick, taste, and smell if we don't have the info?
And, if you think she said her vacation sucked, you need to work on your ability to interpret written information. I can say that having the swimming pool break during my vacation sucked. I mean the loss of the swimming pool sucked, and that only. The reference to my vacation is merely temporal. I may have had a rocking vacation, and the kids had a blast, but found not being able to watch the fireworks from the pool at the end of the day a bit of a downer (kind of like a mixed review).
Gaining weight that will take months to take off can be very frustrating and take a lot of careful nutritional planning for those with low bmrs. Being able to read the nutritional information to make better choices to begin with really is the happier option. Btw, some people can't afford the fancy restaurants (or figure they are a waste of money for kids who would enjoy the chain atmosphere more and would rather have a pizza or hamburger), and that's why they take their kids to a fast food chain. Don't insult kid manners in the forum. It's not what the boards are about, and it is extremely offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. I personally went the other way, and was so afraid of going over my calories that I lost 8 pounds in a week on our last vacation. It was an amazing trip, but it was a little frustrating to spend so much time hungry.
No insults necessary, just good advice. Do your research before you go to the restaurant, get favorites that you know the calories for, or go for the safest options (seafood, grilled chicken salads with dressing on the side, etc.) Ask that your food be prepared without butter, if that helps keep you in your macros. Many chains have nutritional information, ask to look at it before you order if you want to try something new. Ask for a take home box, and box up half your meal before you start eating. Or, go somewhere with no nutritional information and log as best you can when you get home. Above all, enjoy the good company. See, nice and simple
No one needs, or benefits by, being insulted or mocked for feeling challenged by eating out. No one has to justify their struggles. Going to restaurants can be a little frustrating/scary for people still figuring out how to make that work and stay within their macros. It will be a part of most people's lives, so gaining the knowlege and experience to make it work is a part of the weight loss journey, and, ultimately, an important tool in long term sucessful weight loss and management. With confidence and sound information (not dismissive and insulting platitudes like "personal responsibility" or "willpower"), come sustainable success. Let's all take "personal responsibility" to respectfully build each other up and support each otheron the boards. Whatever you put out there, there is more of to run into
No, no they really don't. They are in business to cook tasty food, not to manage your diet. And if you really think that a whole menu and specials would take less than an hour of labor time, you are sorely mistaken and you aren't accounting for the time it would take to actually measure everything that goes into every dish and the training that would have to happen to get it done correctly (if it is even possible to do it correctly in a high-end professional kitchen).
It's very clear from this post that you have no idea how to run a business or how regulation impacts business - especially small business.
You are also being incredibly self-centered. Have you ever thought that not everyone wants to go out to a fine dinner and have calorie counts in their face? I would guess that if you asked every customer at your local fine dining establishment if they would want to see that, most would say "no."
Maybe having that information in peoples faces would make a difference in one of the most obese nations on the planet...I'm not sure what the new rules are, but a simple "nutritional information available on request" on the menu would be sufficient, and servers could bring the pamphlet to requester, if knowing what you are eating is offensive to you...
The percentage of US meals in mom & pops or fine dining establishments is not significant enough to play a role in the obesity epidemic. In fact, discouraging food culture by burdening good restaurants and people who care about food quality is likely to be counter productive.
If you care more about low fat meals and calorie counts than letting the chef be creative or encouraging the existence of small interesting restaurants, there's an easy solution. Go to chains and restaurants that wish to cater to those who want calorie info--there are plenty where I live--and stop trying to deny the rest of us choice. Personally, I'm doing fine losing weight despite eating at restaurants without calorie info and don't need you to manage my experience or reduce my options.0 -
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
again- you are not ignorant- you KNOW when you walk in there- it's not going to be home made- cutting corners to save calories- it's going to be butter and salt rich- delicious and much bigger portions.
that is the knowledge you NEED to have- and you refuse to accept that.I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
you're absolutely correct- and with that knowledge- I am capable of managing/manipulating my diet equally as well as you- and I eat out WEEKLY- and usually we go hit up all you can eat sushi or all you can eat brazillian at LEAST once a month- if not twice.
No, I really don't KNOW what is in the food or how it is prepared. I'm not a professional chef, I don't work at that restaurant, and I'm not psychic. When I prepare my own versions of the food I see at the restaurant it is almost always lower calorie and much lower fat, and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I can guestimate, but that's hit or miss, and I can see how that would be stressful for some (especially if they've recently read posts slamming inaccurate logging).
Is the sushi thing what they call food bragging? I'm not sure what the point is...Some people have smaller deficits than others, so....let's just be gentle and supportive of people trying to improve their health (taking personal responsibility)?
You know how to find out what's in the food? Ask. If they won't answer or you get the sense they aren't honest don't go back and write a mean review on YELP if you want more.0 -
BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »
but you're already setting out with a piss poor attitude that some how because it's chalk full of delicious fat- it's unhealthy.... and you are negative to start "they decide how unhealthy they are going to make it? what does that even mean?? They aren't making healthy or unhealthy food- they are making food to sell- and hopefully it's delicious.
So you're saying unhealthy food is not delicious?
I just don't understand your fussiness with claiming it's "unhealthy" because it's got fat and sugar in it? or it's high calorie- or whatever it is that you're claiming unhealthy is (which can we narrow that definition down for me since you seem vague on that).
Of course they aren't going to be the same- no one said- but you pick one that's an average- and guess high.
And go on about your merry way.
Or, you know, they could just tell us what's in their product. Food costs for successful restaurants (and therefore, what is in the dish) are calculated very carefully. It doesn't seem like an excessive burden for a restaurant to share that information with the public.
Heck, MFP has recipe calculator that does the job just fine. The FDA or whatever regulatory body could put up an official calculator for mom and pop establishments and the chefs could whip out their calorie counts for the day in 5 minutes and then post them on their chalkboard right along with the day's specials.
I love the special pleading going on in this thread where 1) Mom and Pop establishments are changing their menu every day and it's too burdensome and 2) Mom and Pop establishments would have to reprint all their menus. You can have one problem, but not both. If your favorite restaurant is changing its menu every day it's either NOT reprinting its menu and has a chalkboard setup, or it IS reprinting its menu and adding the calorie counts costs nothing more than a few extra characters.
lol 5minutes.
The MFP database is so *kitten*, that it takes a lot longer to enter ONE recipe, let alone how many a restaurant would have to enter.
And guess what? Depending how you pack a cup of flour, it weighs between 4-5 ounces. And restaurants don't have the time to use a food scale so the exact weight of flour is used every single time. Same goes for sugar and many other dry ingredients.
You clearly don't spend THAT much time in the kitchen or on the MFP recipe builder if you think a restaurant came upload 2 dozen + recipes, if you think dish is the exact same every single time.
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/recipe_analysis.php
I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
I don't think the restaurants lie that much on their nutritional data. Yes, the amount of flour by cup may vary, but very few servings would have a full cup of flour, for example. I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
And, to other posters; No one knows how the food is prepared when they walk into a restaurant unless they work there. I was shocked to find out that the spagetti I ate was over 800 calories, with over 40 grams of fat. I can make pasta and sauce for myself at home for less than 400 calories and 5 grams of fat (and it tastes better - ever heard of oregano Denny?).
The nutritional data helps those of us who aren't pyschic to log their meals. And, some of the "personal responsibility" nazis are also logging nazis....How do we log every lick, taste, and smell if we don't have the info?
And, if you think she said her vacation sucked, you need to work on your ability to interpret written information. I can say that having the swimming pool break during my vacation sucked. I mean the loss of the swimming pool sucked, and that only. The reference to my vacation is merely temporal. I may have had a rocking vacation, and the kids had a blast, but found not being able to watch the fireworks from the pool at the end of the day a bit of a downer (kind of like a mixed review).
Gaining weight that will take months to take off can be very frustrating and take a lot of careful nutritional planning for those with low bmrs. Being able to read the nutritional information to make better choices to begin with really is the happier option. Btw, some people can't afford the fancy restaurants (or figure they are a waste of money for kids who would enjoy the chain atmosphere more and would rather have a pizza or hamburger), and that's why they take their kids to a fast food chain. Don't insult kid manners in the forum. It's not what the boards are about, and it is extremely offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. I personally went the other way, and was so afraid of going over my calories that I lost 8 pounds in a week on our last vacation. It was an amazing trip, but it was a little frustrating to spend so much time hungry.
No insults necessary, just good advice. Do your research before you go to the restaurant, get favorites that you know the calories for, or go for the safest options (seafood, grilled chicken salads with dressing on the side, etc.) Ask that your food be prepared without butter, if that helps keep you in your macros. Many chains have nutritional information, ask to look at it before you order if you want to try something new. Ask for a take home box, and box up half your meal before you start eating. Or, go somewhere with no nutritional information and log as best you can when you get home. Above all, enjoy the good company. See, nice and simple
No one needs, or benefits by, being insulted or mocked for feeling challenged by eating out. No one has to justify their struggles. Going to restaurants can be a little frustrating/scary for people still figuring out how to make that work and stay within their macros. It will be a part of most people's lives, so gaining the knowlege and experience to make it work is a part of the weight loss journey, and, ultimately, an important tool in long term sucessful weight loss and management. With confidence and sound information (not dismissive and insulting platitudes like "personal responsibility" or "willpower"), come sustainable success. Let's all take "personal responsibility" to respectfully build each other up and support each otheron the boards. Whatever you put out there, there is more of to run into
Wow, what a load of nonsense
First, I do wonder how all these top restaurants stay in business without providing any calorie information at all and I've been to some that won't even cater to allergies, there's a no substitution policy.
How is providing consumers calorie information helping them? It has been ineffective at changing consumer behavior when studied.
Again if consumers actually wanted this, they'd boycott the restaurant until they gave in. However that hasn't been happening.
Maybe you had a ragu with your restaurant spaghetti, that is what accounted for all the fat.
If you need to know the cal counts, then only frequent ones that provide it. Cal count shouldn't factor into your choice when ordering at a restaurant, order what sounds the best or something you like.
Who cares if a restaurant meal fits in your macros for the day, one day will only derail the weak willed.
When businesses don't cater to allergies, they are chosing to lose customers (and put people's lives at risk) - I'm not sure what your point is, except to say that they obviously have more than enough reserve $ to put some nutritional info together.
I know how the information helps consumers because I have experienced the frustration of trying to accurately log this information. I know that I personally make decisions based on calorie counts, and I know many others that do - references to studies please?
Yes, I had a ragu with my restaurant spagetti. My at home pasta sauce is also a ragu, and has less than 5 grams of fat.
Accusing people who have had derailed diets of being "weak willed" is an inappropriate use of the MFP boards. Please do not use insults on the board.
Cal counts are not that hard to generate, I do it myself and I don't have the resources of a restaurant. It is definitely doable - respectful disagreement
It's a restaurants prerogative to cater to a customers allergies or not. So a place won't allow substitutions. So don't eat there.
And as for counting calories and making healthy choices at a restaurant again, why should that be up to the establishment to hold your hand and make your decisions? If you can't find one thing that seems to be low in calories on a menu then you really shouldn't be eating out. And as for logging the calories? Do what everyone else does: pick the closest thing in the database that resembles your meal and log it.
It's pure laziness on the customers part if you can't go through a menu and find something that will fit within your calories. Last Friday my husband and I were going out to dinner and because we are on a specific meal plan I pulled the menu up online to see what I could choose that would fit in my calories and meal plan. I found at least 4 dinners that I could eat as my meal (with substitutions) but settled on a salad because by that time I wasn't that hungry. I didn't need the restaurant to put a big star and a smiley face next to the meals that were a healthier option and that fit my meal guidelines. I was smart enough to figure that out myself.0 -
goddessofawesome wrote: »I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
The point is that many mom & pop restaurant chefs don't weigh and measure the ingredients and just go by taste and there's nothing wrong with that. And I don't agree that they would "enjoy" measuring out everything and writing down every single little ingredient right down to how much salt they used because it would take the fun out of their creativity.
I don't go out to my local restaurants under the guise that the steak that's in a caramelized onion and mushroom sauce, risotto and vegetables is going to be low in calories nor do I think they should be forced to state what the calories are in that meal. If I really wanted to know then I'd make the same meal at home and weigh and measure all the ingredients. I go out to eat for the experience and if I want something low-cal then I'll ask the chef to adjust it accordingly (ie: don't butter the steamed veggies, skip sauces or get it on the side, get a side salad or extra veggies in lieu of potatoes).
Restaurants shouldn't be held responsible for calorie counts on menus. They never had so why start now? The CONSUMER should be held responsible for what they put in their mouth, not eating everything on their plate and exercising.
Let's not forget all the restaurants that are unique establishments (as opposed to often soul-less chain eateries) in the sense that they change their menu on a regular basis, perhaps never to serve the same exact stuff again...
I don't know if this is a cultural thing, but I seriously perceive this whole "Restaurants have to take responsibility" as something as utterly dense as "Beware hot contents" on coffee-mug lids. Have people forgotten how to use their brains already?
How about learning while you (general you) go, make it a real lifestyle change, and take responsibility of what is on your plate. By that I mean that next time you chop a tomato, chuck it into a measuring cup so you see how much a medium-sized tomato fills of the volume. Maybe it's possible to apply that same knowledge when you eat a salad and in your mind can scoop all the tomato bits into a single pile, then compare the volume to your memory of what it looked like in the kitchen? Or how about the serving size of the meat or fish you like? Or is this too difficult?
ETA
I perceive mom & pop as a small corner place like a bistro or such.
This... I just had a salad from a chain, I did check the "nutritional facts" all I can say is, I had to guess estimate anyways I had to rely on my best guessing abilities... I did not get walnuts... I did add chicken...I had more fruit on it, more pineapple, more grapes, more mandarins... I only added half the dressing... so even if I take their calorie counts as somewhat accurate, and this totally boggles the mind...IT IS Only a base of which may or may not be accurate! I can assume that I may have ate about 500 - 600 calories, then I only ate maybe 3/4 of it. Forcing restaurants to provide this information, and I really don't think they should has, the accuracy will and is challenged. Whether they provide it as the chains do, you and you alone will have to judge by the food what and how many calories you are consuming.
Also keep in mind the fact that the calorie counts that are provided are for one serving and most meals are more than that so if you're choosing the pasta dish assuming it's only 600 calories and you polish off the entire thing based on that guess what? You probably consumed double (or triple) the amount that's posted.
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BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »
but you're already setting out with a piss poor attitude that some how because it's chalk full of delicious fat- it's unhealthy.... and you are negative to start "they decide how unhealthy they are going to make it? what does that even mean?? They aren't making healthy or unhealthy food- they are making food to sell- and hopefully it's delicious.
So you're saying unhealthy food is not delicious?
I just don't understand your fussiness with claiming it's "unhealthy" because it's got fat and sugar in it? or it's high calorie- or whatever it is that you're claiming unhealthy is (which can we narrow that definition down for me since you seem vague on that).
Of course they aren't going to be the same- no one said- but you pick one that's an average- and guess high.
And go on about your merry way.
Or, you know, they could just tell us what's in their product. Food costs for successful restaurants (and therefore, what is in the dish) are calculated very carefully. It doesn't seem like an excessive burden for a restaurant to share that information with the public.
Heck, MFP has recipe calculator that does the job just fine. The FDA or whatever regulatory body could put up an official calculator for mom and pop establishments and the chefs could whip out their calorie counts for the day in 5 minutes and then post them on their chalkboard right along with the day's specials.
I love the special pleading going on in this thread where 1) Mom and Pop establishments are changing their menu every day and it's too burdensome and 2) Mom and Pop establishments would have to reprint all their menus. You can have one problem, but not both. If your favorite restaurant is changing its menu every day it's either NOT reprinting its menu and has a chalkboard setup, or it IS reprinting its menu and adding the calorie counts costs nothing more than a few extra characters.
lol 5minutes.
The MFP database is so *kitten*, that it takes a lot longer to enter ONE recipe, let alone how many a restaurant would have to enter.
And guess what? Depending how you pack a cup of flour, it weighs between 4-5 ounces. And restaurants don't have the time to use a food scale so the exact weight of flour is used every single time. Same goes for sugar and many other dry ingredients.
You clearly don't spend THAT much time in the kitchen or on the MFP recipe builder if you think a restaurant came upload 2 dozen + recipes, if you think dish is the exact same every single time.
The issue isn't stupidity, it is knowledge versus ignorance. I'm not sure why people are insisting that living in ignorance is more "responsible" than having information available.
http://caloriecount.about.com/cc/recipe_analysis.php
I find this a lot less clunky than MFPs recipe builder. It really only takes minutes per recipe, a lot less time than it takes to cook the food. It would be pretty straightforward for a Mom & Pop to put the info together, and would probably be less than an hour or so for a full menu (and if they take pride in their menu, they would probably enjoy it - we obsess over what we love). If the Mom & Pops can't afford an hour of time to help out their consumers, they are probably doomed anyways. Holding others to account is a part of personal responsibility. The Moms and Pop's have just as much responsibility as the rest of us.
I don't think the restaurants lie that much on their nutritional data. Yes, the amount of flour by cup may vary, but very few servings would have a full cup of flour, for example. I eat out probably about 2 - 4 times a month and log it and, aside from the sodium affecting my water weight, my overall weight loss has not been affected. Inaccuracys would self-correct over time, as consumers with concern for others would bring them to the attention of the restaurant (with a lawsuit if necessary..)
And, to other posters; No one knows how the food is prepared when they walk into a restaurant unless they work there. I was shocked to find out that the spagetti I ate was over 800 calories, with over 40 grams of fat. I can make pasta and sauce for myself at home for less than 400 calories and 5 grams of fat (and it tastes better - ever heard of oregano Denny?).
The nutritional data helps those of us who aren't pyschic to log their meals. And, some of the "personal responsibility" nazis are also logging nazis....How do we log every lick, taste, and smell if we don't have the info?
And, if you think she said her vacation sucked, you need to work on your ability to interpret written information. I can say that having the swimming pool break during my vacation sucked. I mean the loss of the swimming pool sucked, and that only. The reference to my vacation is merely temporal. I may have had a rocking vacation, and the kids had a blast, but found not being able to watch the fireworks from the pool at the end of the day a bit of a downer (kind of like a mixed review).
Gaining weight that will take months to take off can be very frustrating and take a lot of careful nutritional planning for those with low bmrs. Being able to read the nutritional information to make better choices to begin with really is the happier option. Btw, some people can't afford the fancy restaurants (or figure they are a waste of money for kids who would enjoy the chain atmosphere more and would rather have a pizza or hamburger), and that's why they take their kids to a fast food chain. Don't insult kid manners in the forum. It's not what the boards are about, and it is extremely offensive and unnecessarily inflammatory. I personally went the other way, and was so afraid of going over my calories that I lost 8 pounds in a week on our last vacation. It was an amazing trip, but it was a little frustrating to spend so much time hungry.
No insults necessary, just good advice. Do your research before you go to the restaurant, get favorites that you know the calories for, or go for the safest options (seafood, grilled chicken salads with dressing on the side, etc.) Ask that your food be prepared without butter, if that helps keep you in your macros. Many chains have nutritional information, ask to look at it before you order if you want to try something new. Ask for a take home box, and box up half your meal before you start eating. Or, go somewhere with no nutritional information and log as best you can when you get home. Above all, enjoy the good company. See, nice and simple
No one needs, or benefits by, being insulted or mocked for feeling challenged by eating out. No one has to justify their struggles. Going to restaurants can be a little frustrating/scary for people still figuring out how to make that work and stay within their macros. It will be a part of most people's lives, so gaining the knowlege and experience to make it work is a part of the weight loss journey, and, ultimately, an important tool in long term sucessful weight loss and management. With confidence and sound information (not dismissive and insulting platitudes like "personal responsibility" or "willpower"), come sustainable success. Let's all take "personal responsibility" to respectfully build each other up and support each otheron the boards. Whatever you put out there, there is more of to run into
No, no they really don't. They are in business to cook tasty food, not to manage your diet. And if you really think that a whole menu and specials would take less than an hour of labor time, you are sorely mistaken and you aren't accounting for the time it would take to actually measure everything that goes into every dish and the training that would have to happen to get it done correctly (if it is even possible to do it correctly in a high-end professional kitchen).
It's very clear from this post that you have no idea how to run a business or how regulation impacts business - especially small business.
You are also being incredibly self-centered. Have you ever thought that not everyone wants to go out to a fine dinner and have calorie counts in their face? I would guess that if you asked every customer at your local fine dining establishment if they would want to see that, most would say "no."
Maybe having that information in peoples faces would make a difference in one of the most obese nations on the planet...I'm not sure what the new rules are, but a simple "nutritional information available on request" on the menu would be sufficient, and servers could bring the pamphlet to requester, if knowing what you are eating is offensive to you...
Nutritional information is on every single food you buy at the grocery store and it's readily available (for the most part) on line yet we are still an obese nation. Obviously stating how many calories are in food isn't working out that well.
Knowing what I'm eating isn't offensive to me (not sure what that means actually). Again I am quite capable of looking at a menu and choosing the healthier option. I don't need someone to point it out for me nor do I need them to tell me how many calories are in it because I can figure it out myself. One can figure out whether or not their vegetables are drenched in butter or simply steamed plain.
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Random injection just because I thought it's kind of funny. I'm currently working in academia studying marketing research, and a few months ago, I was reading marketing study conducted published in the Journal of Consumer Research. This study actually found that when calories were present on a menu board in fast food restaurants, college-aged men (Ages 18-23) tended to eat significantly more calories than if those calorie counts were not present.
Those crazy college kids.0 -
BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Why is that appalling? Buttering steak is a time honoured tradition and it's delicious.
But it emphasizes my earlier point - if you don't know how something is going to be prepared and you're worried about a reasonably accurate calorie count - don't order it! Yes, that means huge parts of the menu will be verboten, but nobody said running a deficit while eating out was going to be fun.
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Not to mention bathing a steak in butter add little calories to the final product, but for some reason people believe chefs then dump the pan of butter over the steak on the plate.....sorry that isn't why they do that. It's a french technique and considering the French have 6 times fewer heart attacks than the rest of europe and have single digit obesity, it just may be something else that makes Americans gain weight then a steak.BeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Why is that appalling? Buttering steak is a time honoured tradition and it's delicious.
But it emphasizes my earlier point - if you don't know how something is going to be prepared and you're worried about a reasonably accurate calorie count - don't order it! Yes, that means huge parts of the menu will be verboten, but nobody said running a deficit while eating out was going to be fun.
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neanderthin wrote: »
double quoteBeginningAgainMay14 wrote: »Good grief. Anybody that worried about calorie counts should not be ordering anything fried, sauteed, or covered in sauce to begin with.
Once those are eliminated, it's really not hard to get reasonable guesses on the rest.
You would think so. But you can't really know because you can't see the food being prepared.
Most of us know the calorie count of a steak. But we don't know what was done to that steak before it reached us. I remember watching a Top Chef steakhouse competition and being appalled when one of the chefs literally bathed her steak in butter. She coated it with butter throughout the entire cooking time. She easily could have doubled the calories in the steak.
Why is that appalling? Buttering steak is a time honoured tradition and it's delicious.
But it emphasizes my earlier point - if you don't know how something is going to be prepared and you're worried about a reasonably accurate calorie count - don't order it! Yes, that means huge parts of the menu will be verboten, but nobody said running a deficit while eating out was going to be fun.0 -
Butter done right...
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
Again I am quite capable of looking at a menu and choosing the healthier option. I don't need someone to point it out for me nor do I need them to tell me how many calories are in it because I can figure it out myself. One can figure out whether or not their vegetables are drenched in butter or simply steamed plain.
Assuming they have veggies on the menu, which isn't always the case. I've been stumped more than once with absolutely no clue what the lowest calorie option was (no grilled food, just sauteed or battered, and choice of side fries, potatoes salad or coleslaw or something). I don't even care to know how many calories are in a dish, but a check mark or something for the healthier options would go a long way, and arguably would be easier for a restaurant than dealing with all the 'sauce on the side' requests or something (which isn't always possible either, I once ordered a sandwich with no dressing and they said they can't do it because they make the sandwiches in the morning).
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
Again I am quite capable of looking at a menu and choosing the healthier option. I don't need someone to point it out for me nor do I need them to tell me how many calories are in it because I can figure it out myself. One can figure out whether or not their vegetables are drenched in butter or simply steamed plain.
Assuming they have veggies on the menu, which isn't always the case. I've been stumped more than once with absolutely no clue what the lowest calorie option was (no grilled food, just sauteed or battered, and choice of side fries, potatoes salad or coleslaw or something). I don't even care to know how many calories are in a dish, but a check mark or something for the healthier options would go a long way, and arguably would be easier for a restaurant than dealing with all the 'sauce on the side' requests or something (which isn't always possible either, I once ordered a sandwich with no dressing and they said they can't do it because they make the sandwiches in the morning).
Foods don't exist in a vacuum thus without knowing how they fit within the context of your total diet and in what amounts you cannot label ones "healthier" than others.
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goddessofawesome wrote: »
Again I am quite capable of looking at a menu and choosing the healthier option. I don't need someone to point it out for me nor do I need them to tell me how many calories are in it because I can figure it out myself. One can figure out whether or not their vegetables are drenched in butter or simply steamed plain.
Assuming they have veggies on the menu, which isn't always the case. I've been stumped more than once with absolutely no clue what the lowest calorie option was (no grilled food, just sauteed or battered, and choice of side fries, potatoes salad or coleslaw or something). I don't even care to know how many calories are in a dish, but a check mark or something for the healthier options would go a long way...
This makes no sense. If you're in a place with no veggies, no grilled meat, everything sauteed or battered, there simply isn't anything on the menu to which this hypothetical "check mark" can be attached to.
If calorie counting is a high priority, having nutritional information isn't going to save you - you need to pick somewhere else to go to.
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This thread is stressing me out. It's gone ideological.
The government enforces other types of reporting from private entities, like financial statements, standard weights and measures, and nutrition labels on foods.
Are we truly better off by removing all regulation?0 -
This thread is stressing me out. It's gone ideological.
The government enforces other types of reporting from private entities, like financial statements, standard weights and measures, and nutrition labels on foods.
Are we truly better off by removing all regulation?
The government is already too involved in our personal choices.
But restaurants are already regulated with health standards, building codes etc. We do not need the restaurant to be responsible for telling me what's healthy or not, we do not need their estimates on calories. We can make decisions for ourselves. If the people that can't make a decision without someone putting a happy face and a cutesy name cause it's lower calorie they can go to those restaurants that cater to them, but I do not want or need to see that at the restaurants I enjoy.0
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