A Question About Sugar
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Replies
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http://superhumanradio.com/the-role-of-dietary-sugars-and-de-novo-lipogenesis-in-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease.html
Hint: Still comes down to calorie intake.
"Lustig must be blushing by now.
Yah, probably. But we aren’t done yet. What about all the talk of this de novo lipogenesis? This is the term used for the process whereby fatty acids are created from non-lipid precursors such as fructose, glucose, or amino acids. Using isotopic glucose or fructose, which lets us “follow” it through the body and see where it ends up, it was demonstrated that consuming 0.75g/kg bodyweight of fructose or glucose didn’t live up to Lustig’s expectations. Specifically, only 0.05% and 0.15% of fructose were converted to fatty acids and glycerol, respectively, while values after glucose consumption were close to 0%. These results have been confirmed by a systemic review of isotopic tracer studies that concluded the immediate metabolic fate of ingested fructose was not into triglycerides (<1%), but towards oxidation (45%) and conversion to glucose (41%)."
In the literature review referenced by your opinion piece:
"Likewise, Zelber-Sagi et al. found significantly higher carbohydrate consumption from soft drinks in ultrasound-diagnosed NAFLD patients compared to controls (23 vs. 12 g/day) [92]"
" while in patients diagnosed with or without NAFLD during liver resections or biopsies, the intakes of those identified with NAFLD pathology had significantly higher fructose intakes than those without (52 vs. 42 g/day) [93]."
Non-Alcoholic Fatty liver disease associated with 23g intake sugar from soda/day.
"A decrease in total fructose consumption by 50% for six months resulted in a reduction of liver fat in adults with NAFLD [105]."
"a recent study over 6 weeks suggests that sucrose-sweetened beverages are more lipogenic when consumed in-between, rather than with meals [107] "
"...large doses of fructose are lipogenic and have adverse metabolic effects."
"Pragmatically, in the context of epidemic levels of obesity, reducing dietary sugar consumption is a prudent public health message-1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I wanted to post one word for discussion and see where it leads. Inflammation. It is surprising to me that with all of these sugar threads I haven't really seen this come up much. I'm curious as to what many of you think about it and how it relates to high sugary foods. I don't know if some would lump it into the category of "medical conditions", but I think it deserves some attention. I know for me personally, sometimes consuming a lot of sugar at once can intensify my allergies a bit temporarily. While of course not everyone reacts the same way, I wonder if it would be agreed upon that sugar is an inflammatory substance. Or would some say that's not true. Also, while I gave a short term example, I'm also looking at long term implications.This should end the thread but it won't.
"Avoidance of chronic inflammation
Another potential benefit of low CHO diets might lie in their influence upon inflammatory processes that take place within various tissues. Inflammation is a well-established driver of early tumorigenesis and accompanies most, if not all cancers [148]. Chronic, 'smouldering' inflammation can both cause and develop along with neoplasia. There is evidence that chronic intake of easily digestible CHOs is able to promote such an inflammatory state in leukocytes and endothelial cells [94]. In obese individuals [149] and healthy subjects who underwent eccentric exercise training [150], the inflammatory state was further augmented postprandially through a high CHO intake, but not through high-fat, low CHO meals in the latter study. Maybe more importantly, even moderate CHO restriction has been shown to effectively target several important markers of atherosclerosis and type II diabetes, both of which are associated with chronic inflammation [151-157]."
Source: nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/8/1/75
ForecastererJason research seems to indicate through high intake of sugar/similar carbs that can in some cause an inflammatory state leading to atherosclerosis and Type 2 Diabetes.
You may have hit the nail on the head with your point about Inflammation. Thanks
That's not exactly a peer-reviewed study, and I didn't get much further than the sentence that called cancer a "disease of society". Cavemen didn't live long enough to develop cancer.
0 -
herrspoons wrote: »http://superhumanradio.com/the-role-of-dietary-sugars-and-de-novo-lipogenesis-in-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease.html
Hint: Still comes down to calorie intake.
"Lustig must be blushing by now.
Yah, probably. But we aren’t done yet. What about all the talk of this de novo lipogenesis? This is the term used for the process whereby fatty acids are created from non-lipid precursors such as fructose, glucose, or amino acids. Using isotopic glucose or fructose, which lets us “follow” it through the body and see where it ends up, it was demonstrated that consuming 0.75g/kg bodyweight of fructose or glucose didn’t live up to Lustig’s expectations. Specifically, only 0.05% and 0.15% of fructose were converted to fatty acids and glycerol, respectively, while values after glucose consumption were close to 0%. These results have been confirmed by a systemic review of isotopic tracer studies that concluded the immediate metabolic fate of ingested fructose was not into triglycerides (<1%), but towards oxidation (45%) and conversion to glucose (41%)."
In the literature review referenced by your opinion piece:
"Likewise, Zelber-Sagi et al. found significantly higher carbohydrate consumption from soft drinks in ultrasound-diagnosed NAFLD patients compared to controls (23 vs. 12 g/day) [92]"
" while in patients diagnosed with or without NAFLD during liver resections or biopsies, the intakes of those identified with NAFLD pathology had significantly higher fructose intakes than those without (52 vs. 42 g/day) [93]."
Non-Alcoholic Fatty liver disease associated with 23g intake sugar from soda/day.
"A decrease in total fructose consumption by 50% for six months resulted in a reduction of liver fat in adults with NAFLD [105]."
"a recent study over 6 weeks suggests that sucrose-sweetened beverages are more lipogenic when consumed in-between, rather than with meals [107] "
"...large doses of fructose are lipogenic and have adverse metabolic effects."
"Pragmatically, in the context of epidemic levels of obesity, reducing dietary sugar consumption is a prudent public health message
Holy mother of god. Which part of 'extreme versus moderation' are you having difficulty with?
I am convinced they are a troll, or have terrible reading comprehension.
This is the most current(2014)
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/6/12/5679/htm
Excess energy, not sugar, let alone fructose main culprit behind NAFLD, study says, previous studies simply flawed, scientist say: "The use of hypercaloric, supra-physiological doses in intervention trials has been a major confounding factor and whether or not dietary sugars, including fructose, at typically consumed population levels, effect hepatic lipogenesis and NAFLD pathogenesis in humans independently of excess energy remains unresolved."
-1 -
herrspoons wrote: »http://superhumanradio.com/the-role-of-dietary-sugars-and-de-novo-lipogenesis-in-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease.html
Hint: Still comes down to calorie intake.
"Lustig must be blushing by now.
Yah, probably. But we aren’t done yet. What about all the talk of this de novo lipogenesis? This is the term used for the process whereby fatty acids are created from non-lipid precursors such as fructose, glucose, or amino acids. Using isotopic glucose or fructose, which lets us “follow” it through the body and see where it ends up, it was demonstrated that consuming 0.75g/kg bodyweight of fructose or glucose didn’t live up to Lustig’s expectations. Specifically, only 0.05% and 0.15% of fructose were converted to fatty acids and glycerol, respectively, while values after glucose consumption were close to 0%. These results have been confirmed by a systemic review of isotopic tracer studies that concluded the immediate metabolic fate of ingested fructose was not into triglycerides (<1%), but towards oxidation (45%) and conversion to glucose (41%)."
In the literature review referenced by your opinion piece:
"Likewise, Zelber-Sagi et al. found significantly higher carbohydrate consumption from soft drinks in ultrasound-diagnosed NAFLD patients compared to controls (23 vs. 12 g/day) [92]"
" while in patients diagnosed with or without NAFLD during liver resections or biopsies, the intakes of those identified with NAFLD pathology had significantly higher fructose intakes than those without (52 vs. 42 g/day) [93]."
Non-Alcoholic Fatty liver disease associated with 23g intake sugar from soda/day.
"A decrease in total fructose consumption by 50% for six months resulted in a reduction of liver fat in adults with NAFLD [105]."
"a recent study over 6 weeks suggests that sucrose-sweetened beverages are more lipogenic when consumed in-between, rather than with meals [107] "
"...large doses of fructose are lipogenic and have adverse metabolic effects."
"Pragmatically, in the context of epidemic levels of obesity, reducing dietary sugar consumption is a prudent public health message
Holy mother of god. Which part of 'extreme versus moderation' are you having difficulty with?
I am convinced they are a troll, or have terrible reading comprehension.
This is the most current(2014)
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/6/12/5679/htm
Excess energy, not sugar, let alone fructose main culprit behind NAFLD, study says, previous studies simply flawed, scientist say: "The use of hypercaloric, supra-physiological doses in intervention trials has been a major confounding factor and whether or not dietary sugars, including fructose, at typically consumed population levels, effect hepatic lipogenesis and NAFLD pathogenesis in humans independently of excess energy remains unresolved."
They've spent the last 3 pages trying to disprove a hyperbolic exaggeration. Everyone else has moved past that into other topics, yet this poster is determined to beat the strawman they've created like the proverbial dead horse, rather than contribute anything meaningful to the discussion. Of course they are a troll.-1 -
herrspoons wrote: »http://superhumanradio.com/the-role-of-dietary-sugars-and-de-novo-lipogenesis-in-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease.html
Hint: Still comes down to calorie intake.
"Lustig must be blushing by now.
Yah, probably. But we aren’t done yet. What about all the talk of this de novo lipogenesis? This is the term used for the process whereby fatty acids are created from non-lipid precursors such as fructose, glucose, or amino acids. Using isotopic glucose or fructose, which lets us “follow” it through the body and see where it ends up, it was demonstrated that consuming 0.75g/kg bodyweight of fructose or glucose didn’t live up to Lustig’s expectations. Specifically, only 0.05% and 0.15% of fructose were converted to fatty acids and glycerol, respectively, while values after glucose consumption were close to 0%. These results have been confirmed by a systemic review of isotopic tracer studies that concluded the immediate metabolic fate of ingested fructose was not into triglycerides (<1%), but towards oxidation (45%) and conversion to glucose (41%)."
In the literature review referenced by your opinion piece:
"Likewise, Zelber-Sagi et al. found significantly higher carbohydrate consumption from soft drinks in ultrasound-diagnosed NAFLD patients compared to controls (23 vs. 12 g/day) [92]"
" while in patients diagnosed with or without NAFLD during liver resections or biopsies, the intakes of those identified with NAFLD pathology had significantly higher fructose intakes than those without (52 vs. 42 g/day) [93]."
Non-Alcoholic Fatty liver disease associated with 23g intake sugar from soda/day.
"A decrease in total fructose consumption by 50% for six months resulted in a reduction of liver fat in adults with NAFLD [105]."
"a recent study over 6 weeks suggests that sucrose-sweetened beverages are more lipogenic when consumed in-between, rather than with meals [107] "
"...large doses of fructose are lipogenic and have adverse metabolic effects."
"Pragmatically, in the context of epidemic levels of obesity, reducing dietary sugar consumption is a prudent public health message
Holy mother of god. Which part of 'extreme versus moderation' are you having difficulty with?
I am convinced they are a troll, or have terrible reading comprehension.
This is the most current(2014)
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/6/12/5679/htm
Excess energy, not sugar, let alone fructose main culprit behind NAFLD, study says, previous studies simply flawed, scientist say: "The use of hypercaloric, supra-physiological doses in intervention trials has been a major confounding factor and whether or not dietary sugars, including fructose, at typically consumed population levels, effect hepatic lipogenesis and NAFLD pathogenesis in humans independently of excess energy remains unresolved."
First of all, this is not a study, it is a literature review. The scientist is not saying that fructose has no impact on NAFLD (fatty liver disease), just that the literature to date is not enough to say that it has based on the hypercaloric doses of fructose used in the studies reviewed. Fructose has not been shown to be innocent, there is a pathway, there is evidence supporting. But the opinion of the author of the paper is that the question is unresolved with the evidence at hand. My argument is not about NAFLD, however.
This paper states that sugar is converted to fat, confirming my argument.
"Fructose has been scrutinized in part because its hepatic metabolism differs from glucose and high fructose intakes have been shown to alter hepatic insulin sensitivity, increase lipogenesis and ectopic lipid disposition in human [13,14,15] as well as rodent studies"
-1 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »
That's what makes me want to pull my hair out when I read these threads. I think 90% of the posters on both sides do agree about what constitutes a healthy long term approach to weight loss: A sustainable diet that is high in micronutrients and fibre and sufficient in protein and fat, and creates a caloric deficit.
Both sides can be extremely vague about their approach - "I don't eat sugar and I lose weight" vs "I eat ice cream every day - only calories matter", and each side either honestly or disingenuously assumes that the other side has no other guidelines they follow. I think the MFP veterans are guilty of building strawmen in their arguments to some extent, but you also have to remember that newbies may not understand that there is a lot more implied than just what is stated.
Just cutting out sugar does not cause weight loss. However, some people find that they are less likely to overeat if they strictly reduce or even eliminate added fats and sugars and use whole food sources that are more satiating and contain more micronutrients. they feel full on fewer calories, and find that their cravings for sugary foods subside in time.
CICO does not ensure a healthy diet. However, for people who want to keep eating some less nutrient dense "fun food", using discretionary calories after macro and micro nutrient requirements are met is a good way to ensure long term adherence. They don't want to feel they are depriving themselves and risk returning to their old habits out of frustration.
I know that's stating the obvious for a lot of the old timers, but don't assume that people who receive no nutrition education in school and are trying to lose weight for the first time without a rigid diet program understand this. If they did, they wouldn't be asking. The constant arguments without full explanation are likely to make them even more confused. You know what you are trying to say. I (think I) know what you are trying to say. A lot of noobs take what you say at face value.
And please note I said 90% - I realize there are posters who think that cutting carbs (or fat, or anything else) means you can ignore calorie balance, and posters who think that 1200 calories of literally any foodstuff is a perfectly healthy approach regardless of fibre, protein, micronutrients, etc., but I'm not talking about these fringe dwellers, who are a lot rarer than you probably think.
Thank you MakePeasNotWar,
I don't usually repeat previous long posts in my reply but this is too good to let pass as 90% of the time, we are all meaning the same thing and are at constant battle over nothing.0 -
herrspoons wrote: »http://superhumanradio.com/the-role-of-dietary-sugars-and-de-novo-lipogenesis-in-non-alcoholic-fatty-liver-disease.html
Hint: Still comes down to calorie intake.
"Lustig must be blushing by now.
Yah, probably. But we aren’t done yet. What about all the talk of this de novo lipogenesis? This is the term used for the process whereby fatty acids are created from non-lipid precursors such as fructose, glucose, or amino acids. Using isotopic glucose or fructose, which lets us “follow” it through the body and see where it ends up, it was demonstrated that consuming 0.75g/kg bodyweight of fructose or glucose didn’t live up to Lustig’s expectations. Specifically, only 0.05% and 0.15% of fructose were converted to fatty acids and glycerol, respectively, while values after glucose consumption were close to 0%. These results have been confirmed by a systemic review of isotopic tracer studies that concluded the immediate metabolic fate of ingested fructose was not into triglycerides (<1%), but towards oxidation (45%) and conversion to glucose (41%)."
In the literature review referenced by your opinion piece:
"Likewise, Zelber-Sagi et al. found significantly higher carbohydrate consumption from soft drinks in ultrasound-diagnosed NAFLD patients compared to controls (23 vs. 12 g/day) [92]"
" while in patients diagnosed with or without NAFLD during liver resections or biopsies, the intakes of those identified with NAFLD pathology had significantly higher fructose intakes than those without (52 vs. 42 g/day) [93]."
Non-Alcoholic Fatty liver disease associated with 23g intake sugar from soda/day.
"A decrease in total fructose consumption by 50% for six months resulted in a reduction of liver fat in adults with NAFLD [105]."
"a recent study over 6 weeks suggests that sucrose-sweetened beverages are more lipogenic when consumed in-between, rather than with meals [107] "
"...large doses of fructose are lipogenic and have adverse metabolic effects."
"Pragmatically, in the context of epidemic levels of obesity, reducing dietary sugar consumption is a prudent public health message
Holy mother of god. Which part of 'extreme versus moderation' are you having difficulty with?
I am convinced they are a troll, or have terrible reading comprehension.
This is the most current(2014)
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/6/12/5679/htm
Excess energy, not sugar, let alone fructose main culprit behind NAFLD, study says, previous studies simply flawed, scientist say: "The use of hypercaloric, supra-physiological doses in intervention trials has been a major confounding factor and whether or not dietary sugars, including fructose, at typically consumed population levels, effect hepatic lipogenesis and NAFLD pathogenesis in humans independently of excess energy remains unresolved."
First of all, this is not a study, it is a literature review. The scientist is not saying that fructose has no impact on NAFLD (fatty liver disease), just that the literature to date is not enough to say that it has based on the hypercaloric doses of fructose used in the studies reviewed. Fructose has not been shown to be innocent, there is a pathway, there is evidence supporting. But the opinion of the author of the paper is that the question is unresolved with the evidence at hand. My argument is not about NAFLD, however.
This paper states that sugar is converted to fat, confirming my argument.
"Fructose has been scrutinized in part because its hepatic metabolism differs from glucose and high fructose intakes have been shown to alter hepatic insulin sensitivity, increase lipogenesis and ectopic lipid disposition in human [13,14,15] as well as rodent studies"
Less than 1% of fructose is converted to fat.0 -
Holy wall of text. Just to point out, everything you listed in the first paragraph as to what HFCS does? Those are all things sugar does, it's got nothing to do with it being HFCS being used. HFCS is just sugar, and honestly, the amount of fructose in HFCS compared to sucrose is completely insignificant anyway (0.05 grams per gram, it would take 20 extra grams of HFCS to make for one extra gram of fructose compared to regular sugar.)
Honestly, didn't read the rest of that rambling wall of whatever after the first few lines, as those basically proved a lack of understanding of what HFCS actually is.0 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »
That's what makes me want to pull my hair out when I read these threads. I think 90% of the posters on both sides do agree about what constitutes a healthy long term approach to weight loss: A sustainable diet that is high in micronutrients and fibre and sufficient in protein and fat, and creates a caloric deficit.
Both sides can be extremely vague about their approach - "I don't eat sugar and I lose weight" vs "I eat ice cream every day - only calories matter", and each side either honestly or disingenuously assumes that the other side has no other guidelines they follow. I think the MFP veterans are guilty of building strawmen in their arguments to some extent, but you also have to remember that newbies may not understand that there is a lot more implied than just what is stated.
Just cutting out sugar does not cause weight loss. However, some people find that they are less likely to overeat if they strictly reduce or even eliminate added fats and sugars and use whole food sources that are more satiating and contain more micronutrients. they feel full on fewer calories, and find that their cravings for sugary foods subside in time.
CICO does not ensure a healthy diet. However, for people who want to keep eating some less nutrient dense "fun food", using discretionary calories after macro and micro nutrient requirements are met is a good way to ensure long term adherence. They don't want to feel they are depriving themselves and risk returning to their old habits out of frustration.
I know that's stating the obvious for a lot of the old timers, but don't assume that people who receive no nutrition education in school and are trying to lose weight for the first time without a rigid diet program understand this. If they did, they wouldn't be asking. The constant arguments without full explanation are likely to make them even more confused. You know what you are trying to say. I (think I) know what you are trying to say. A lot of noobs take what you say at face value.
And please note I said 90% - I realize there are posters who think that cutting carbs (or fat, or anything else) means you can ignore calorie balance, and posters who think that 1200 calories of literally any foodstuff is a perfectly healthy approach regardless of fibre, protein, micronutrients, etc., but I'm not talking about these fringe dwellers, who are a lot rarer than you probably think.
Thank you MakePeasNotWar,
I don't usually repeat previous long posts in my reply but this is too good to let pass as 90% of the time, we are all meaning the same thing and are at constant battle over nothing.
You are one of those constantly making up straw men about people allegedly justifying eating sweets 100% of the time and also claim yourself that sugar is "the devil," though. That does seem different than what the people arguing that it's perfectly healthy to eat a balanced, nutritious, calorie-appropriate diet that might include some sweets or other less nutrient dense foods are saying.
It seems to me there is a major difference here. The posters arguing for moderation, or at least that moderation can be a completely healthy approach, are looking at the nutrient content of an overall diet and focusing on getting the right number of calories (however that is achieved) and adequate nutrients and macro mix. The others--including many of those who come in going on about "sugar" being the problem or making them fat (darn that sugar being such a strong leader!)--seem to want to oversimplify in lieu of actually making a real examination of their diet or understanding nutrition. It's like that poster who wanted to know if she could eat "clean" even if she refused to eat vegetables. If you actually eat a good diet overall, you obviously aren't going to be eating added sugar 100% of the time or even in excess, so it's a total straw man.
And in my mind claiming that there are some posters who think that eating a balanced nutritious diet with added sugar in moderation means Dunkin Donuts and KFC 100% of the time are being insulting by assuming people are stupid. Nutrition or what a balanced diet is really isn't rocket science, and I try to act as if most people are capable of dressing themselves and figuring out how to eat in a reasonable fashion.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »
That's what makes me want to pull my hair out when I read these threads. I think 90% of the posters on both sides do agree about what constitutes a healthy long term approach to weight loss: A sustainable diet that is high in micronutrients and fibre and sufficient in protein and fat, and creates a caloric deficit.
Both sides can be extremely vague about their approach - "I don't eat sugar and I lose weight" vs "I eat ice cream every day - only calories matter", and each side either honestly or disingenuously assumes that the other side has no other guidelines they follow. I think the MFP veterans are guilty of building strawmen in their arguments to some extent, but you also have to remember that newbies may not understand that there is a lot more implied than just what is stated.
Just cutting out sugar does not cause weight loss. However, some people find that they are less likely to overeat if they strictly reduce or even eliminate added fats and sugars and use whole food sources that are more satiating and contain more micronutrients. they feel full on fewer calories, and find that their cravings for sugary foods subside in time.
CICO does not ensure a healthy diet. However, for people who want to keep eating some less nutrient dense "fun food", using discretionary calories after macro and micro nutrient requirements are met is a good way to ensure long term adherence. They don't want to feel they are depriving themselves and risk returning to their old habits out of frustration.
I know that's stating the obvious for a lot of the old timers, but don't assume that people who receive no nutrition education in school and are trying to lose weight for the first time without a rigid diet program understand this. If they did, they wouldn't be asking. The constant arguments without full explanation are likely to make them even more confused. You know what you are trying to say. I (think I) know what you are trying to say. A lot of noobs take what you say at face value.
And please note I said 90% - I realize there are posters who think that cutting carbs (or fat, or anything else) means you can ignore calorie balance, and posters who think that 1200 calories of literally any foodstuff is a perfectly healthy approach regardless of fibre, protein, micronutrients, etc., but I'm not talking about these fringe dwellers, who are a lot rarer than you probably think.
Thank you MakePeasNotWar,
I don't usually repeat previous long posts in my reply but this is too good to let pass as 90% of the time, we are all meaning the same thing and are at constant battle over nothing.
You are one of those constantly making up straw men about people allegedly justifying eating sweets 100% of the time and also claim yourself that sugar is "the devil," though. That does seem different than what the people arguing that it's perfectly healthy to eat a balanced, nutritious, calorie-appropriate diet that might include some sweets or other less nutrient dense foods are saying.
It seems to me there is a major difference here. The posters arguing for moderation, or at least that moderation can be a completely healthy approach, are looking at the nutrient content of an overall diet and focusing on getting the right number of calories (however that is achieved) and adequate nutrients and macro mix. The others--including many of those who come in going on about "sugar" being the problem or making them fat (darn that sugar being such a strong leader!)--seem to want to oversimplify in lieu of actually making a real examination of their diet or understanding nutrition. It's like that poster who wanted to know if she could eat "clean" even if she refused to eat vegetables. If you actually eat a good diet overall, you obviously aren't going to be eating added sugar 100% of the time or even in excess, so it's a total straw man.
And in my mind claiming that there are some posters who think that eating a balanced nutritious diet with added sugar in moderation means Dunkin Donuts and KFC 100% of the time are being insulting by assuming people are stupid. Nutrition or what a balanced diet is really isn't rocket science, and I try to act as if most people are capable of dressing themselves and figuring out how to eat in a reasonable fashion.
And "what you eat doesn't matter" isn't an oversimplification?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »
That's what makes me want to pull my hair out when I read these threads. I think 90% of the posters on both sides do agree about what constitutes a healthy long term approach to weight loss: A sustainable diet that is high in micronutrients and fibre and sufficient in protein and fat, and creates a caloric deficit.
Both sides can be extremely vague about their approach - "I don't eat sugar and I lose weight" vs "I eat ice cream every day - only calories matter", and each side either honestly or disingenuously assumes that the other side has no other guidelines they follow. I think the MFP veterans are guilty of building strawmen in their arguments to some extent, but you also have to remember that newbies may not understand that there is a lot more implied than just what is stated.
Just cutting out sugar does not cause weight loss. However, some people find that they are less likely to overeat if they strictly reduce or even eliminate added fats and sugars and use whole food sources that are more satiating and contain more micronutrients. they feel full on fewer calories, and find that their cravings for sugary foods subside in time.
CICO does not ensure a healthy diet. However, for people who want to keep eating some less nutrient dense "fun food", using discretionary calories after macro and micro nutrient requirements are met is a good way to ensure long term adherence. They don't want to feel they are depriving themselves and risk returning to their old habits out of frustration.
I know that's stating the obvious for a lot of the old timers, but don't assume that people who receive no nutrition education in school and are trying to lose weight for the first time without a rigid diet program understand this. If they did, they wouldn't be asking. The constant arguments without full explanation are likely to make them even more confused. You know what you are trying to say. I (think I) know what you are trying to say. A lot of noobs take what you say at face value.
And please note I said 90% - I realize there are posters who think that cutting carbs (or fat, or anything else) means you can ignore calorie balance, and posters who think that 1200 calories of literally any foodstuff is a perfectly healthy approach regardless of fibre, protein, micronutrients, etc., but I'm not talking about these fringe dwellers, who are a lot rarer than you probably think.
Thank you MakePeasNotWar,
I don't usually repeat previous long posts in my reply but this is too good to let pass as 90% of the time, we are all meaning the same thing and are at constant battle over nothing.
You are one of those constantly making up straw men about people allegedly justifying eating sweets 100% of the time and also claim yourself that sugar is "the devil," though. That does seem different than what the people arguing that it's perfectly healthy to eat a balanced, nutritious, calorie-appropriate diet that might include some sweets or other less nutrient dense foods are saying.
It seems to me there is a major difference here. The posters arguing for moderation, or at least that moderation can be a completely healthy approach, are looking at the nutrient content of an overall diet and focusing on getting the right number of calories (however that is achieved) and adequate nutrients and macro mix. The others--including many of those who come in going on about "sugar" being the problem or making them fat (darn that sugar being such a strong leader!)--seem to want to oversimplify in lieu of actually making a real examination of their diet or understanding nutrition. It's like that poster who wanted to know if she could eat "clean" even if she refused to eat vegetables. If you actually eat a good diet overall, you obviously aren't going to be eating added sugar 100% of the time or even in excess, so it's a total straw man.
And in my mind claiming that there are some posters who think that eating a balanced nutritious diet with added sugar in moderation means Dunkin Donuts and KFC 100% of the time are being insulting by assuming people are stupid. Nutrition or what a balanced diet is really isn't rocket science, and I try to act as if most people are capable of dressing themselves and figuring out how to eat in a reasonable fashion.
And "what you eat doesn't matter" isn't an oversimplification?
No, as absolutely everyone who has read any of the relevant threads would know, unless they are being willfully ignorant for some odd reason of their own, it is a short way of saying: "all else equal, what you eat doesn't matter for weight loss, calories do." No one has ever said that what you eat doesn't matter for other reasons, such as health or sustainability, although what the arguments on that are typically about is whether eating some sugar in moderation is less healthy than trying to eat none. I've never seen anyone announce that they eat sugar in great excess and plan to cut it down and have people criticize that. Seems like common sense, to me.0 -
And "what you eat doesn't matter" isn't an oversimplification?
We have all said this same sentence, so lets try it again..... No it doesn't matter what you eat for weight loss.... but if you care about health, wellness, body composition, it does.
Weight loss is NOT difficult for most of us (those with medical issues have additional variables and it might make it more difficult)... why are we trying to make it out to be rocket science?
0 -
Weight loss isn't independent of diet composition, so "it doesn't matter" is a stretch.0
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Mm, Twinkies.
Either way yes, barring medical conditions, weight loss is independent of actual diet. How you actually FEEL losing weight, as well as your overall health, is not.
And while we're at it, certain people in this topic should feel free to download this, fill it out and frame it:
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Weight loss isn't independent of diet composition, so "it doesn't matter" is a stretch.
It matters in terms of sustainability for someone without the added incentive of proving a point or doing a study. I know if I tried a McDs only or cake only diet I'd end up quitting or eating too many calories. But that doesn't mean CICO is wrong, just that there's more to putting together a good diet plan for yourself, and those other factors are going to be largely personal and not determined by theories like "carbs spike insulin" or "people who eat 6 meals don't get hungry and overeat." People need to experiment for themselves to determine what is sustainable and sensible for them whatever the effect for others. For example, contrary to the evangelism of some on this forum, neither pasta nor potatoes cause me to crave or overeat or be more hungry and thus the assertion that they are bad for a diet is wrong, for me. Others may be different.
The problem is that some try and apply what is personal to them as if it were a generally applicable rule like CICO.
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Numerous studies show different outcomes based on composition of diet, for example you don't suggest that a 10% protein and 30% protein isocaloric diet would have the same outcome do you ?
Or were you perhaps being qualitative rather than quantitative - weight loss is possible with any diet composition (or no diet at all).0 -
Numerous studies show different outcomes based on composition of diet, for example you don't suggest that a 10% protein and 30% protein isocaloric diet would have the same outcome do you ?
Or were you perhaps being qualitative rather than quantitative - weight loss is possible with any diet composition (or no diet at all).
If you read what i wrote on the last page you will understand. But i will repeat... for weight loss it doesnt matter what you eat, but for health, wellness, body composition, satiety, energy, sustainability, etc.... the composition does matter.
If people actually listen to what the majority of advocate, these discussions wouldnt occur. We all advocate a diet in whole foods with plenty of fruits and veggies, lean proteins and fats so you can not only achieve your macronutrient and micronutrient goals to ensure health and wellness. Additionally, if you have a diet that has a lot of variety, you will ensure you are not deficient in vitamins or minerals which are important to health and exercise.
This is why i am against many diets as they eliminate foods that would help you achieve these goals.
What a lot of people forgot, sugar can also be a very useful tool when doing heavy workouts, especially when containing dextrose. Its one of the fastest ways to replenish glycogen when can aid muscle recovery or growth.
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If you read what i wrote on the last page you will understand.
I don't understand and when I suggested two alternative interpretations you didn't help. Let's try again to make it really simple for me :-
Do you believe that the same weight loss will occur from eating the same number of calories irrespective of the composition of those calories ?
a) Yes.
b) No.0
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