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Here's my question. I'm 5'5", 145lb, 45 years old. I run intervals for 5 miles (meaning run half a mile, walk a tenth of a mile and repeat) 5-6 days a week. I did the 1200 calorie bit for a long time and lost weight. I want to lengthen my run intervals but was struggling so thought I needed more calories. I decided to maintain for a while and try to push up my calories to see what my actual maintenance level is and improve my runs so have been going up by 100/day every week or two. I'm at 1700 right and am maintaining so I'm going to keep pushing the number up.
What I don't understand is how I'm maintaining at 1700 when according to Scooby, my BMR is 1323 and TDEE is 2050. Seems like I should be losing since I'm under my TDEE? And when I decide to cut again, what should my calories be?0 -
Here's my question. I'm 5'5", 145lb, 45 years old. I run intervals for 5 miles (meaning run half a mile, walk a tenth of a mile and repeat) 5-6 days a week. I did the 1200 calorie bit for a long time and lost weight. I want to lengthen my run intervals but was struggling so thought I needed more calories. I decided to maintain for a while and try to push up my calories to see what my actual maintenance level is and improve my runs so have been going up by 100/day every week or two. I'm at 1700 right and am maintaining so I'm going to keep pushing the number up.
What I don't understand is how I'm maintaining at 1700 when according to Scooby, my BMR is 1323 and TDEE is 2050. Seems like I should be losing since I'm under my TDEE? And when I decide to cut again, what should my calories be?
When you do an online calorie calculator, it's not spitting out what your actual TDEE is. It's spitting out what your estimated TDEE is. Metabolism is adaptive to dieting. Create a calorie deficit and metabolism declines. How much depends on a lot of things.
So there's that.
Which jibes with your situation since you decided to cut calories drastically (too drastically if you ask me).
Not to mention that there's metabolic rate variability across matched populations. Meaning, if 100 people with your exact stats used this same calculator that you used, they'd all get the same output. Yet, in reality, there could be as much as a 30% swing from lowest to highest metabolic rate in that group.
Plus, weight doesn't go hand in hand with metabolism and calorie calculators. You very well might be losing fat but you're also eating more food and altering a lot of things which means more water, more bowel matter, you could be triggering some recomp, etc. And these things could be masking the actual fat loss that's occurring.
Long story short... it's not so simplistic.
But you're doing the right thing. Find your true maintenance. Sit there for a couple of weeks. Then create a sane deficit.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »So there's that.
Which jibes with your situation since you decided to cut calories drastically (too drastically if you ask me).
Not to mention that there's metabolic rate variability across matched populations. Meaning, if 100 people with your exact stats used this same calculator that you used, they'd all get the same output. Yet, in reality, there could be as much as a 30% swing from lowest to highest metabolic rate in that group.
Plus, weight doesn't go hand in hand with metabolism and calorie calculators. You very well might be losing fat but you're also eating more food and altering a lot of things which means more water, more bowel matter, you could be triggering some recomp, etc. And these things could be masking the actual fat loss that's occurring.
Long story short... it's not so simplistic.
But you're doing the right thing. Find your true maintenance. Sit there for a couple of weeks. Then create a sane deficit.
Did I tell you today that you're awesome Steve? You are SO awesome!0 -
Thank you for your answer, that really does make sense. I find the entire thing so very confusing, particularly with so much contradictory information floating around. I know now that the 1200 was much too low, but that's what MFP gave me and I didn't understand about their net calories and eating back exercise calories when I started. I'm trying to figure it out now, and you've definitely helped!
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stroutman81 wrote: »
I would bet my money on no... you haven't exhausted your novice gains. You only put 3 months in and then you've been out for another 4-5 months. The fastest rate of gains typically happen over the course of the first year of progressive, consistent training. Mileage may vary from person to person, but that's the general rule.
It's safe to say that you barely have both feet out of the starting blocks.
I had my fingers crossed that you would say something like this
Thank you for the response.0 -
What made you choose 1200 calories?
1200 was the MFP recommendation originally.
You should really check out this thread. It's a long read but I think it'll be well worth the investment of time.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/113609/relatively-light-people-trying-to-get-leaner/p1
I will definitely read this later when I have more time!But from a high level, here are some concepts for you to mull over:
1. In almost all cases, the goal should be to eat as much food/calories as possible while still allowing fat loss to happen at a reasonable rate. This is the case for a few reasons.
One big one is the fact that, as a culture, we are fantastic at losing weight. We do it all the time. But we are god awful at keeping it off. A large part of this has to do with the unsustainable methods most dieters use. They're simply relying on temporary measures. Temporary measures lead to temporary results since... once removed, behaviors revert back to old.
Secondly, big deficits tend to increase the risk of muscle loss. If you're in this primarily to look better with your clothes off, you have two factors to think about - fat and muscle. Everyone tends to jump right to the concept of fat loss and they try and demolish is with a blitz attack. This usually includes big deficits and lots of cardio.
But this approach totally neglects the muscle side of the coin. By being more conservative with your deficit, you help minimize muscle loss while dieting. In doing so, you minimize the chances of simply becoming a lighter, still soft version of your former self.
2. Stemming from what I said above regarding fat and muscle, not only does a more conservative approach to calorie management prevent muscle loss, but so too does resistance training. Progressive resistance training is part of a fat loss system to provide your body a REASON to hold onto the "good stuff."
Muscle is what provides your shape as fat is lost.
This is why you need to develop a holistic perspective and system of physique enhancement.
3. Now you're not just starting out. You've already lost a pretty substantial percentage of your total weight using pretty extreme methods while disregarding the muscle side of the coin. The question is, where do you go from here? I'll comment more on this after you reply with your initial reaction and questions.
Ok, I think I'm starting to get a better idea of how this all works. Basically I've been going about things all wrong and I need to decrease my deficit and start a progressive strength training routine.
Part of my problem is that I managed to get it in my head that the bigger the deficit the better, and that eating at a more modest deficit is "cheating" and a sign of me lacking self discipline. I will work on changing my way of thinking to be more realistic and less self-critical.
So, what would you recommend as far as daily calorie intake and a starting strength routine? Also, is it ok for me to still do some cardio? I enjoy the energy and happy feeling I get from it, so if there's a way for me to still incorporate it while building muscle, that would be great.You also have a lot of "clean up" work you need to do with your current system before you go worrying about advanced stuff like training for stubborn fat.
It'd be sort of like changing your flat tire while your engine's on fire.
Great analogy. I will not worry about this part yet!
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Liftng4Lis wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »So there's that.
Which jibes with your situation since you decided to cut calories drastically (too drastically if you ask me).
Not to mention that there's metabolic rate variability across matched populations. Meaning, if 100 people with your exact stats used this same calculator that you used, they'd all get the same output. Yet, in reality, there could be as much as a 30% swing from lowest to highest metabolic rate in that group.
Plus, weight doesn't go hand in hand with metabolism and calorie calculators. You very well might be losing fat but you're also eating more food and altering a lot of things which means more water, more bowel matter, you could be triggering some recomp, etc. And these things could be masking the actual fat loss that's occurring.
Long story short... it's not so simplistic.
But you're doing the right thing. Find your true maintenance. Sit there for a couple of weeks. Then create a sane deficit.
Did I tell you today that you're awesome Steve? You are SO awesome!
Thanks for putting a smile on my face.0 -
Thank you for your answer, that really does make sense. I find the entire thing so very confusing, particularly with so much contradictory information floating around. I know now that the 1200 was much too low, but that's what MFP gave me and I didn't understand about their net calories and eating back exercise calories when I started. I'm trying to figure it out now, and you've definitely helped!
That's the double edge of the 'net, ya know? It's amazing just how much information is at our fingertips. I was trying to explain to my grandmother the other day just how powerful of a tool my phone is. She couldn't wrap her head around it. It really makes you appreciate just how much we have and how easy it is to learn.
Then again, she doesn't understand how I can make a living teaching people fitness, haha.
On the flip side, though... the web creates an atmosphere of information overload. And the fact that the 'net has provided a stage for anyone with half a brain to spout off information certainly doesn't help. Someone told me recently that there are people here on MFP who, without any sort of real experience, started charging people money to tell them their macros. I mean, come on. This is where we are.
We have to be very selective about where we obtain our information.
I can't vouch for being an expert on MFPs methods. From what I understand, though, it sets 1200 calories as the safe floor. It's an arbitrary number that may or may not be "right" for a given person. But since they set it as a limit, if the number of pounds you tell the system you want to lose requires a calorie intake that is below 1200, it'll simply tell you, "eat 1200 calories."
I'm not really a fan of their system. But if it works for some people... so be it. It's just more complex than I think necessary.
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1200 was the MFP recommendation originally.
This is sort of my point in my above post. I've met plenty of intelligent people who get wonky recommendations from this system. It's not intuitive enough. Or maybe there isn't enough disclosure about how numbers are being derived. I should really go through the process myself maybe.Ok, I think I'm starting to get a better idea of how this all works. Basically I've been going about things all wrong and I need to decrease my deficit and start a progressive strength training routine.
You could be more wrong. Trust me. Not that you are, but don't beat yourself up too bad. It's one giant learning process for all of us. But yes... in general you want to bring calories up and start rounding out your exercise with some resistance training.Part of my problem is that I managed to get it in my head that the bigger the deficit the better, and that eating at a more modest deficit is "cheating" and a sign of me lacking self discipline. I will work on changing my way of thinking to be more realistic and less self-critical.
You're not alone. Some serious flaw perceptions are born in the world of dieting. It's a byproduct of really deceptive marketing and tons of pressure to fit a very idealized and often time unattainable (at at least unsustainable) standard.
You really do have to let it all go. In fact, I'd argue this is your priority number one. And it's no easy task. Once thought patterns, beliefs, and perceptions take root... they're hard to get rid of.
Some general things to remind yourself everyday:
1. It's not a race. It's like anything else that's worth having in life... it requires a lot of work and time. Mostly time.
2. Less is usually more. It's mostly about coaxing the fat off more than it is about beating it off with deep deficits and excessive cardio.
3. It's not about making huge commitments to huge actions. Rather it's about making consistent commitments to minor actions. It's the small daily behaviors that drive us to where we want to be. Process over outcome focus!
4. If what you're doing today isn't something you can see yourself doing, in some form or fashion, forever... you're likely doing it wrong.
5. Self-compassion is immensely important. I find the way people talk to themselves breeds an abuse relationship with their bodies. The things they say to themselves and the demands they place on themselves aren't anything like they'd do to someone else. Be easy. When you get too serious, take a step back and reassess. Learn about mindfulness/meditation. And just be kind to yourself.
I could ramble on and on about my "rules" but you get the point. It's time to shift your thinking.So, what would you recommend as far as daily calorie intake and a starting strength routine?
I've encountered folks who have eaten extremely low calories for years. No joke. You're not "in too deep." Especially seeing as how you had some time off from it around the holidays. That's a good thing. If you were my client, I'd likely suggest ramping calories up over the course of a couple weeks. Maybe 100 calories every 2 days or so.
At 144 lbs, your maintenance is likely in the neighborhood of 2000 calories per day. If you're still eating 1200, you could be up around 2000 in a matter a couple of weeks. This is just a matter of getting yourself back to a clean slate. Give your body a break and prep it for a more reasonable fat loss push. Not to mention the fact that it will give you the opportunity to find your true maintenance.
Once you're at 2000, park yourself there for a week or so. If your weight remains stable, you're at maintenance. If it declines, you could actually stand to go north of there. If it rises, it won't be anything drastic. And it's mostly water, so don't freak.
From there, you can start venturing back into deficit territory. I'd start at 1700.
While ramping calories up, I'd nix the intense cardio. Just do some incline walking or light jogging. Once you start dieting again, you can add "regular" cardio sessions in as needed.
And as far as strength training goes... do you have any experience whatsoever?
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It's basic math, but without guidance, so too many people get 1200 without understanding why.
MFP says "are you sedentary? you are if you aren't active on your job." So every desk worker says "sedentary," even if they run around after 4 kids or live in a city and walk everywhere.
MFP says "how much do you want to lose, 0 to 2 lbs?" Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of dieters say "2 lbs!"
MFP then says "how much do you plan to exercise?" which lots of people think means the exercise is included in the calorie goal (although it's not).
And then MFP takes your estimated maintenance when sedentary and subtracts your 1000 calories from it to give you a calorie goal.
According to M-SJ (the calculator MFP uses), if you are a 35 y-o sedentary 5'5 woman (slightly above average height), your maintenance at 250 lbs is about 2200, so this is why so many female users get 1200 or close to it. It would be nice if it were explained a bit better.0 -
You could be more wrong. Trust me. Not that you are, but don't beat yourself up too bad. It's one giant learning process for all of us. But yes... in general you want to bring calories up and start rounding out your exercise with some resistance training.
I've dieted off and on since I was 14, and yet even after all these years I'm still amazed at how much I don't know. As you mentioned in another post, I think information overload plays a part.You're not alone. Some serious flaw perceptions are born in the world of dieting. It's a byproduct of really deceptive marketing and tons of pressure to fit a very idealized and often time unattainable (at at least unsustainable) standard.
So true. Even celebrities and models are photoshopped and slimmed down in photos because the standard of beauty is so unrealistic.You really do have to let it all go. In fact, I'd argue this is your priority number one. And it's no easy task. Once thought patterns, beliefs, and perceptions take root... they're hard to get rid of.
Its definitely going to be hard for me, but I'm going to really try.Some general things to remind yourself everyday:
1. It's not a race. It's like anything else that's worth having in life... it requires a lot of work and time. Mostly time.
2. Less is usually more. It's mostly about coaxing the fat off more than it is about beating it off with deep deficits and excessive cardio.
3. It's not about making huge commitments to huge actions. Rather it's about making consistent commitments to minor actions. It's the small daily behaviors that drive us to where we want to be. Process over outcome focus!
4. If what you're doing today isn't something you can see yourself doing, in some form or fashion, forever... you're likely doing it wrong.
5. Self-compassion is immensely important. I find the way people talk to themselves breeds an abuse relationship with their bodies. The things they say to themselves and the demands they place on themselves aren't anything like they'd do to someone else. Be easy. When you get too serious, take a step back and reassess. Learn about mindfulness/meditation. And just be kind to yourself.
These are all things I need to work on. As I work on number 5, I think it will become easier to work on the other 4.I've encountered folks who have eaten extremely low calories for years. No joke. You're not "in too deep." Especially seeing as how you had some time off from it around the holidays. That's a good thing. If you were my client, I'd likely suggest ramping calories up over the course of a couple weeks. Maybe 100 calories every 2 days or so.
At 144 lbs, your maintenance is likely in the neighborhood of 2000 calories per day. If you're still eating 1200, you could be up around 2000 in a matter a couple of weeks. This is just a matter of getting yourself back to a clean slate. Give your body a break and prep it for a more reasonable fat loss push. Not to mention the fact that it will give you the opportunity to find your true maintenance.
Once you're at 2000, park yourself there for a week or so. If your weight remains stable, you're at maintenance. If it declines, you could actually stand to go north of there. If it rises, it won't be anything drastic. And it's mostly water, so don't freak.
I will give it a go, even though the idea of eating 2000 calories a day terrifies me. It sounds like so much after spending so long thinking I only should eat 1200. I'm glad you told me not to freak, I needed to hear that!From there, you can start venturing back into deficit territory. I'd start at 1700.
A deficit at 1700 would be amazing. I thought I'd have to eat that or less even just to maintain.While ramping calories up, I'd nix the intense cardio. Just do some incline walking or light jogging. Once you start dieting again, you can add "regular" cardio sessions in as needed.
And as far as strength training goes... do you have any experience whatsoever?
Not really. Squats, lunges and little 5 pound hand weights are all I've done. I have a gym membership. so I have access to anything I should need. It's overwhelming to me though because I have no idea what to do with any of the equipment other than cardio machines.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Free weights tend to be more functional. They require more stabilizer activity, they're more versatile, they're more individualizable (I made that word up), etc.
Got it now!
Just want to thank you once again for answering all my questions. Sometimes, we can ask a question and get answers all over the place. It is really really really helpful to get answers from a trusted source! Much much appreciated!0 -
Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!0
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Awesome information, thank you so much for doing this, Steve!
I was wondering how you would go about strengthening the shoulder muscles? I don't do a lot of upper body work, and have just started Strong Curves after doing AllPro's and some templates by Nia Shanks. Strong Curves includes horizontal push/pull twice a week and vertical push/pull once, all in the 8–12 rep range. Everything I've done before Strong Curves generally alternated between horizontal push/pull and vertical push/pull, and I've never done any accessory upper body lifts or more than one push and one pull exercise per workout. I lift three days a week.
While this is in accordance with my goals in general, it bothers me that I have not been able to progress in any meaningful way on my OHP since August. That means I might be able to progress a bit over let's say the course of two weeks but then I'll be forced to regress again. The problem is definitely my right shoulder. I generally get stuck at the point when my upper arm is extended about 45° upwards from my shoulder or I can't press the weight from the starting position at all. I also have problems stabilising the weight overhead. Do you have suggestions? More frequency, different rep ranges, accessory exercises?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »It's basic math, but without guidance, so too many people get 1200 without understanding why.
MFP says "are you sedentary? you are if you aren't active on your job." So every desk worker says "sedentary," even if they run around after 4 kids or live in a city and walk everywhere.
MFP says "how much do you want to lose, 0 to 2 lbs?" Unsurprisingly, the vast majority of dieters say "2 lbs!"
MFP then says "how much do you plan to exercise?" which lots of people think means the exercise is included in the calorie goal (although it's not).
And then MFP takes your estimated maintenance when sedentary and subtracts your 1000 calories from it to give you a calorie goal.
According to M-SJ (the calculator MFP uses), if you are a 35 y-o sedentary 5'5 woman (slightly above average height), your maintenance at 250 lbs is about 2200, so this is why so many female users get 1200 or close to it. It would be nice if it were explained a bit better.
Thanks for the explanation. And yeah, I agree... better disclosures would help immensely. Even with disclosures though, it just doesn't need to be as complex as they're making it. Heck, I can't really stand the whole "how much weight do you want to lose per week" question since it creates a flawed expectation of linear progress. Not to mention the fact that we can't mathematically set things up so simply given the complexities involved.
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stroutman81 wrote: »It needn't be years. Heck, I've lost 20 lbs in the last 3 months and totally overhauled my own physique. But I'm also internally motivated, don't have emotional/relationship issues with food, and am willing to put the work in daily. I'm also "light on my feet" when it comes to nutritional indiscretions. Meaning, I might eat a meal out that totally doesn't align with the plan for the day... but that meal is in isolation. It doesn't leak over to the next meal and the next. It doesn't cause guilt or grief. It just is, so I accept and enjoy it and then move on.
Do you mind if I ask what balance of nutritional deficit versus exercise you used to achieve this weight loss? I am curious because you stated early on I believe that women in particular have a tendency to overdo it. So I'm curious in what way you made sure you weren't overdoing it, or if you're saying due to the hormonal difference that wasn't something you had to worry about and therefore you were able to go all out. Thank you.0 -
blues4miles wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »It needn't be years. Heck, I've lost 20 lbs in the last 3 months and totally overhauled my own physique. But I'm also internally motivated, don't have emotional/relationship issues with food, and am willing to put the work in daily. I'm also "light on my feet" when it comes to nutritional indiscretions. Meaning, I might eat a meal out that totally doesn't align with the plan for the day... but that meal is in isolation. It doesn't leak over to the next meal and the next. It doesn't cause guilt or grief. It just is, so I accept and enjoy it and then move on.
Do you mind if I ask what balance of nutritional deficit versus exercise you used to achieve this weight loss? I am curious because you stated early on I believe that women in particular have a tendency to overdo it. So I'm curious in what way you made sure you weren't overdoing it, or if you're saying due to the hormonal difference that wasn't something you had to worry about and therefore you were able to go all out. Thank you.
Oh good question! I'm also curious!0 -
I've dieted off and on since I was 14, and yet even after all these years I'm still amazed at how much I don't know. As you mentioned in another post, I think information overload plays a part.
I think it's that. I also think it's that people tend to hold onto their behaviors surrounding diet, food, and exercise with a death grip. They don't like deviating from the rules they've established for themselves.
Rather than, "Last time X didn't work, so I learned from it and now I'm going to refine my approach to Y," it's usually more like, "Last time X didn't work, so I failed and I suck. Now I'm going to try X again but only harder and I'm not going to cave."
Over. And over. And over. And over.
Changing course requires a serious gut check. It requires a lot more objectivity and flexibility than most folks are willing to give. It requires the balls to loosen the grip and venture into the outskirts of their comfort zones. It's the only way to expand thinking and generate results that differ from what their old ways have always have always produced.
Just my 2 cents.So true. Even celebrities and models are photoshopped and slimmed down in photos because the standard of beauty is so unrealistic.
Yup. Three questions everyone should be asking themselves:
1. Is the look I'm shooting for even realistic?
2. If yes, why do I want that look?
3. Is my why really worth the price required to obtain said look?
I'm not about to tell someone they shouldn't pursue self improvement. Not at all. But I find a lot of people who would be better suited by more reality mixed with their goals. That whole "shoot for the moon and, at a minimum, you wind up among the stars" mentality tends to cause a lot of extreme behavior, inconsistency, anxiety, and frustration in the world of dieting and fitness.These are all things I need to work on. As I work on number 5, I think it will become easier to work on the other 4.
Couldn't agree more. Get in the habit of taking your mind to the gym.0 -
mom3over40 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »Free weights tend to be more functional. They require more stabilizer activity, they're more versatile, they're more individualizable (I made that word up), etc.
Got it now!
Just want to thank you once again for answering all my questions. Sometimes, we can ask a question and get answers all over the place. It is really really really helpful to get answers from a trusted source! Much much appreciated!
Yeah, don't mention it. I'm enjoying the thread.0 -
Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!
Hi neighbor!
Sorry, that sounds stalkerish. But in context of the world wide web, we really are neighbors.
It's good that you accept some fat on your lower half. You ARE a woman. And women ARE genetically hardwired to keep some extra stores on the bottom half. Yay baby makability!
Do me a favor... please split out your actual daily training schedule. I don't mean exercises, sets, and reps and all of that detail. But what do you generally do on each day of the week?
And how long have you been eating your current calorie level?0 -
LiftAndBalance wrote: »Awesome information, thank you so much for doing this, Steve!
I was wondering how you would go about strengthening the shoulder muscles? I don't do a lot of upper body work, and have just started Strong Curves after doing AllPro's and some templates by Nia Shanks. Strong Curves includes horizontal push/pull twice a week and vertical push/pull once, all in the 8–12 rep range. Everything I've done before Strong Curves generally alternated between horizontal push/pull and vertical push/pull, and I've never done any accessory upper body lifts or more than one push and one pull exercise per workout. I lift three days a week.
While this is in accordance with my goals in general, it bothers me that I have not been able to progress in any meaningful way on my OHP since August. That means I might be able to progress a bit over let's say the course of two weeks but then I'll be forced to regress again. The problem is definitely my right shoulder. I generally get stuck at the point when my upper arm is extended about 45° upwards from my shoulder or I can't press the weight from the starting position at all. I also have problems stabilising the weight overhead. Do you have suggestions? More frequency, different rep ranges, accessory exercises?
It'd be helpful if I could see your form. I know it's a bit awkward, but my offer stands to assess form. You can shoot a quick video, upload it unlisted to youtube, and send it on over to me at stroutman81@gmail.com. Just throwing it out there as an option.
It's hard to say what's going on, though. One question would be, at what increment are you adding weight to the bar? Another question would be, what do you do when you plateau? By that, I mean do you cut weight and if so, by how much?0 -
blues4miles wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »It needn't be years. Heck, I've lost 20 lbs in the last 3 months and totally overhauled my own physique. But I'm also internally motivated, don't have emotional/relationship issues with food, and am willing to put the work in daily. I'm also "light on my feet" when it comes to nutritional indiscretions. Meaning, I might eat a meal out that totally doesn't align with the plan for the day... but that meal is in isolation. It doesn't leak over to the next meal and the next. It doesn't cause guilt or grief. It just is, so I accept and enjoy it and then move on.
Do you mind if I ask what balance of nutritional deficit versus exercise you used to achieve this weight loss? I am curious because you stated early on I believe that women in particular have a tendency to overdo it. So I'm curious in what way you made sure you weren't overdoing it, or if you're saying due to the hormonal difference that wasn't something you had to worry about and therefore you were able to go all out. Thank you.
Not at all.
On the training front, I did no structured cardio. I did full body strength training 5 x/wk with a close eye on strength levels and recovery.
On the nutrition front, I did two days that were PSMF-esque. For those who don't know what a protein sparing modified fast consists of... think of it like this. You cut calories to the lowest level that still allows for adequate intake of the essentials such as sufficient protein to stave off muscle loss and sufficient fiber and vitamins/minerals to ensure health. These two days weren't strict PSMF... I allowed myself fruit and such. But I would essentially eat nothing but lean protein, veggies, and fruit on these days along with some nuts. My calories were in the 1200 to 1300 range.
The question is why?
Well, I've been doing this a long time. I'm very in tune with my personality and my body. For starters, I don't feel deprived when I have two days in a week that are relatively strict. I actually enjoy it. More importantly, it jacks up the level of calories I can eat the other 5 days in the week. I've also found that consolidating the majority of my calories on training days (especially post training) tends to provide me the biggest bang for my buck.
I've worked with a lot of people over the years and have gotten plenty of folks in the best shape of their lives without this sort of cyclic approach. But it just fits me mentally and physically.
When I say I find that many women have a tendency to overdo it, I mean that they try to cut calories down to some crazy low level every single day while doing tons of intense activity across the week without ever building up the capacity to handle that level of work - with or without a deficit in place!
Oh, and yeah... female physiology tends to be quite a bit more defensive against starvation in general. Again, yay baby makability!0 -
Hey Steve,
I just realized my last post got cut off where I replied to your question about how much experience I have with strength training. The answer to that is basically none. I've done some squats and lunges and hand weights recently but that's it. Many years back I used a handful of basic machines, but it's been so long that I can't even figure out how to properly use 90% of what's available at my gym. I was able to book a free session with a trainer, so hopefully that will at least help me learn how to use some of the equipment. My legs do feel a little stronger from the squats and jogging, but my arms are pretty weak.0 -
I should add, I'm by no means shredded. I couldn't step on stage or anything. But I'm happy lean. I'm strong, I feel fit, I eat some junk every single day, I'm not deprived, I pass physicals with flying colors, and I feel I have a pretty damn good relationship with food.
I could maintain this level of leanness year round without much effort. I mean, 5 x/wk strength training is a lot of effort I suppose. Especially relative to most Americans. But I love working out. But what I mean is, I don't really feel like I'm dieting. I'm not exerting truckloads of willpower each and everyday simply trying to keep the train on the tracks.
Of course this is merely n=1. It doesn't mean much relative to you or anyone else. We're all different. But the point is, we need to find that intersection of lifestyle, aesthetics, performance, health, fun, and sustainability. And it's going to be different for each person.
If you follow the BI facebook page, that likely sounds pretty familiar seeing as how I just wrote the exact same thing there yesterday.
Heck, even for any given person, the intersection is going to change depending on what's going on in their lives right now. My training and diet hasn't always looked like this. That's for sure.
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stroutman81 wrote: »Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!
Hi neighbor!
Sorry, that sounds stalkerish. But in context of the world wide web, we really are neighbors.
It's good that you accept some fat on your lower half. You ARE a woman. And women ARE genetically hardwired to keep some extra stores on the bottom half. Yay baby makability!
Do me a favor... please split out your actual daily training schedule. I don't mean exercises, sets, and reps and all of that detail. But what do you generally do on each day of the week?
And how long have you been eating your current calorie level?
No I laughed when I saw that, neighbor
I usually start the week with legs on Monday, Tuesday is back and chest, wed is shoulders, then Thursday it's legs again with more of a focus on hamstrings and Friday is an upper body day. Sat I do a crossfit workout that is more cardio. All of my days start with the main lifts with some accessory work for the given area I'm focusing on and some cardio at the end.
I've been at 1400 for almost 4 weeks.
Thank you so much!
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Hey Steve,
I just realized my last post got cut off where I replied to your question about how much experience I have with strength training. The answer to that is basically none. I've done some squats and lunges and hand weights recently but that's it. Many years back I used a handful of basic machines, but it's been so long that I can't even figure out how to properly use 90% of what's available at my gym. I was able to book a free session with a trainer, so hopefully that will at least help me learn how to use some of the equipment. My legs do feel a little stronger from the squats and jogging, but my arms are pretty weak.
That's a good thing. I means your body will be highly sensitive to resistance training. The best gains come in the first year or so of consistent training. So yeah, I think it's a great thing you embarking down this path. Hopefully your trainer isn't normal and can actually teach you proper movement mechanics (hip hinging, bracing the core, squatting, pressing, pulling, etc.)
No matter, you definitely want to start out pretty basic. I have some articles early on in my blog here at MFP that would really help. Here was one that I'm thinking of:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/stroutman81/view/resistance-training-foundation-19725
Granted, that article is nearly 5 years old at this point so some of my thinking has changed a bit. But it's still a solid foundational piece that's worth reading.0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!
Hi neighbor!
Sorry, that sounds stalkerish. But in context of the world wide web, we really are neighbors.
It's good that you accept some fat on your lower half. You ARE a woman. And women ARE genetically hardwired to keep some extra stores on the bottom half. Yay baby makability!
Do me a favor... please split out your actual daily training schedule. I don't mean exercises, sets, and reps and all of that detail. But what do you generally do on each day of the week?
And how long have you been eating your current calorie level?
No I laughed when I saw that, neighbor
I usually start the week with legs on Monday, Tuesday is back and chest, wed is shoulders, then Thursday it's legs again with more of a focus on hamstrings and Friday is an upper body day. Sat I do a crossfit workout that is more cardio. All of my days start with the main lifts with some accessory work for the given area I'm focusing on and some cardio at the end.
I've been at 1400 for almost 4 weeks.
Thank you so much!
It sounds like quite a bit of activity given your lowish calorie intake. I say that without knowing more about you or your training history. Do you train this much because you enjoy it? Or because you think you have to?
Assuming you haven't actually built up a training resume/capacity for the level of work you're currently doing... just for reference... if you were my client I'd likely start you in the 1600-1700 calorie range and I'd back off the training frequency a bit.
That being said, if you're comfortable with what you're doing and it's yielding the results you desire, I'm not one to say "you're doing it wrong."
There are plenty of ways to skin this cat and there's a lot of individual variability in terms of what "dose" of nutrition and exercise is doable and optimal.
0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »Hi, I am currently cutting down trying to get rid of some stubborn fat areas. I'm 5'5 148lbs and I'm pear-shaped. I have definition in my arms and abs but my lower half carries all of my fat. Some of it I accept but I think I should be able to improve it. I have spent the last 2.5 years lifting progressively and have made some decent gains and I'm cutting on 1300-1400 calories still lifting with some cardio. I train 6 days a week. I train all my lifts twice a week and do one day of crossfit which is more cardio focused and usually about 15-30 minutes of some kind of cardio on my lifting days. Thanks in advance!
Hi neighbor!
Sorry, that sounds stalkerish. But in context of the world wide web, we really are neighbors.
It's good that you accept some fat on your lower half. You ARE a woman. And women ARE genetically hardwired to keep some extra stores on the bottom half. Yay baby makability!
Do me a favor... please split out your actual daily training schedule. I don't mean exercises, sets, and reps and all of that detail. But what do you generally do on each day of the week?
And how long have you been eating your current calorie level?
No I laughed when I saw that, neighbor
I usually start the week with legs on Monday, Tuesday is back and chest, wed is shoulders, then Thursday it's legs again with more of a focus on hamstrings and Friday is an upper body day. Sat I do a crossfit workout that is more cardio. All of my days start with the main lifts with some accessory work for the given area I'm focusing on and some cardio at the end.
I've been at 1400 for almost 4 weeks.
Thank you so much!
It sounds like quite a bit of activity given your lowish calorie intake. I say that without knowing more about you or your training history. Do you train this much because you enjoy it? Or because you think you have to?
Assuming you haven't actually built up a training resume/capacity for the level of work you're currently doing... just for reference... if you were my client I'd likely start you in the 1600-1700 calorie range and I'd back off the training frequency a bit.
That being said, if you're comfortable with what you're doing and it's yielding the results you desire, I'm not one to say "you're doing it wrong."
There are plenty of ways to skin this cat and there's a lot of individual variability in terms of what "dose" of nutrition and exercise is doable and optimal.
I've been thinking of upping my calories because of the volume. I really enjoy the heavy lifting (cardio not so much) and worked my way up to this volume. I usually get pretty lean up top when I'm somewhere in the 130's but my lower half stays pretty chunky. I didn't know if there was some approach to try and even out a bit and help my bottom half to appear more solid.
0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »stroutman81 wrote: »I'm planning on starting a weight training program this week (I'm going over squats and deadlifts with a trainer first so I don't hurt myself). I'm currently losing well on 1650 calories per day and one cheat meal per week (this week is sushi, yum!), protein between 110-130g/day. Should I change anything on the eating side for weight lifting? Or keep everything as is?
Impossible to say based on the info you've given. What's your age, height, and weight? How active are you outside of the gym? How many days per week are you training? What forms of training are you using besides lifting?
Also, I feel obligated to state that you don't NEED squats and deadlifts to optimize your physique. I mean, if you want to include them, they're certainly great exercises. But I see a lot of people thinking they're NECESSARY for physique optimization and that couldn't be further from the truth.
If you don't feel comfortable with one or both, don't be afraid to find alternatives.
I'm 24, 5' 4" and 133 lbs. Bf around 26%. I walk 10-13,000 steps per day (walking the dog, etc), but I sit quite a bit as a student. I do a step and strength class (50% intense step, 50% body weight/high rep weight training) 3 days a week, and a pure step class once a week. I really like my step classes and don't plan on changing them. I also do some balance work assigned by my physical therapist most days to strengthen my knees and ankles, but she has given me the all clear to start lifting as long as I am sure about my form.
I'm planning to start the following program. I picked it because it only works each muscle group once per week, so if I work that group again in my class I won't be overdoing it. I can also always use lower weights in my class as well, or do an alternate exercise. The teacher is really flexible.
Day 1 (all sets 8-10 reps)
Flat Bench Press – Warm-up sets and then 3 working sets
Incline Bench Press – 3 working sets
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press – 3 working sets
Dips – 3 working sets to failure (use the assistance machine if necessary)
Triceps Pushdown – 3 working sets
Seated Triceps Press – working 3 sets
Day 2
Barbell Deadlift – Warm-up sets and then 3 working sets
Barbell Row: 3 working sets
One-Arm Dumbbell Row – 3 working sets
Close-Grip Lat Pulldown – 3 working sets
Alternating Dumbbell Curl – 3 working sets
Barbell Curl – 3 working sets
Day 3
Seated Barbell Military Press – Warm-up sets and then 3 working sets
Barbell Upright Row – 3 working sets
Side Lateral Raise – 3 working sets
Bent-Over Rear Delt Raise – 3 working sets
Barbell Squat – 3 working sets
Leg Press – 3 working sets
Barbell Lunge – 3 working sets
Romanian Deadlift – 3 working sets
Sorry for the long post! Thanks for the feedback
It's hard for me to really comment here since I have no clue what your classes are really like. That said, I'm thinking they're more cardio than anything else. If you're doing timed calisthenics... it's really closer to cardio than it is strength training.
I mean, let's face it... walking or running is resistance training. You're training and your body weight is providing a resistance. But walking certainly isn't providing the same stimulus at the muscle level that progressive strength training is providing.
Take myself for example. I do 5 full body strength sessions per week. I also go backpacking once per week and walk most days. I don't cut back my leg training simply bc I backpack and walk. Granted, if I was doing intense cardio that was neurologically and muscularly challenging, I'd have to rethink it.
But that would beg the question of, "Does that high intensity cardio suit my goal?"
Which brings me to a very important point that needs addressing before I get ahead of myself (which I likely already have). Context ALWAYS matters. The value of any given program can't be assessed without knowing what the end user is hoping to obtain from said program. Put differently, what are your goals?
And does your current training match your goals?
Specificity also ALWAYS matters.
One of my biggest goals is to have more energy and not get out of breath while hiking, so I think cardio is important for my training. It's also great for my mental health, since it's very meditative to me and I just generally enjoy it. My class often includes doing 50-100 pushups, 2 minute wall sits, 3 minutes of body weight or 10 lb dumbbell squats, 2 one minute sets of tricep extensions, or 2 one minute sets of bicep curls. Often 4-5 minutes of cardio followed by 4-5 minutes of these types of exercises, rinse and repeat for one hour
I'm mostly just wanting to try something new, to be honest. I am making some progress but it has been slow, although the holidays might have something to do with that! According to a BIA scale, my muscle mass has stayed consistent since September while I've lost about 6lbs, so I'm going in the right direction but hoping to speed things up. Just wondering if I should adjust calories or keep them the same. I'm eating about 1650, losing .5-1 lbs per week on average but they're in spurts (same for 3 weeks, then 1.5-2 lbs down, then same for 3 weeks, etc). Everyone on here talks about heavy lifting helping to reduce fat and increase muscle especially in newbies, so I wanted to give it a try!
Edit: Are you saying that I shouldn't try strength training since my goal isn't really to be stronger? I think I'm confused.
I'm definitely NOT saying you shouldn't try strength training. I firmly believe that in almost all cases, be it for performance or physique, strength training should be at the epicenter of your programming.
And yeah, your classes are the typical circuit sessions most of these classes are about. A lot of women tend to gravitate toward them since there's camaraderie. More importantly, I find, in general, that women enjoy beating the poop out of themselves more so than men. Women are much more inclined to leave it all on the gym floor. The closer they can push themselves to being a lump of flesh on the floor, sweating and breathing rigorously after pushing deep into the realms of muscle burn... the better in their minds.
Sorry for the generalizations!
For many of them, though, this feeling is the objective of their workouts unto itself.
And that's fine if you're not concerned about optimizing your training for some physical goal. Like you said, you seem to care more about mental health than the physical outcome. And I'm sure you're getting a conditioning effect, which will help on the trails (big hiker here myself), though I don't train much for it in the gym.
I'm only bringing this above for others who might be reading this (there seem to be a lot of people reading this thread). And when your goals are centered on physique optimization, you need to be more deliberate with your exercise decisions. The objective of your primary workouts should be to train your muscles rather than to chase some feeling.
As for your particular results, you're doing good. Maintaining muscle while losing fat will always net improved performance and better physique. So if you're happy, keep rocking the program you're following. And yes, if you want to add some strength training into the mix... I definitely advocate it. I'm not sure I'd keep the volume of cardio you're doing in the mix while also dieting and doing sufficient strength training. But you'll have to experiment to see what you can and can't handle.
Remember, progress comes from applying a stress AND recovery from said stress. And recovery ability is dampened while eating a deficit.
And if you want faster results, you likely want to turn to the nutritional side of the coin! Strength training will help maintain/add muscle. But it's certainly not magical in terms of fat burning. It's just part of the puzzle of optimal fat loss training, is all.
Thanks for the advice! I'm not sure if I can keep up with the training volume, but I'm hoping I'll like lifting almost as much as I like my classes. Did my first session with my trainer today, going over form and customizing the program to suit my fitness level (he said it was too easy for me, which is encouraging!) He also recommended I up my calories a bit (100-200 calories) on lifting days, so I'm going to try that and see how it goes.
And I'm totally guilty about leaving it all out there when I work out. For me, it's definitely a catharsis, a release of my pent up energy etc. I need that or I wouldn't be able to keep going! I'll make sure I'm getting the nutrients and rest I need to keep up with this volume of exercise, which should help 0 -
stroutman81 wrote: »I should add, I'm by no means shredded. I couldn't step on stage or anything. But I'm happy lean. I'm strong, I feel fit, I eat some junk every single day, I'm not deprived, I pass physicals with flying colors, and I feel I have a pretty damn good relationship with food.
I could maintain this level of leanness year round without much effort. I mean, 5 x/wk strength training is a lot of effort I suppose. Especially relative to most Americans. But I love working out. But what I mean is, I don't really feel like I'm dieting. I'm not exerting truckloads of willpower each and everyday simply trying to keep the train on the tracks.
Of course this is merely n=1. It doesn't mean much relative to you or anyone else. We're all different. But the point is, we need to find that intersection of lifestyle, aesthetics, performance, health, fun, and sustainability. And it's going to be different for each person.
If you follow the BI facebook page, that likely sounds pretty familiar seeing as how I just wrote the exact same thing there yesterday.
Heck, even for any given person, the intersection is going to change depending on what's going on in their lives right now. My training and diet hasn't always looked like this. That's for sure.
In a very objective...ummm...look at human form I'd say (imho) you look v good :-)
"Happy Lean" - I like that term. Kind of what I'm searching for - happy lean, fit and strong!
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