Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
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AllanMisner wrote: »
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
totally disagree with bolded.
Then it is your experience that most newbies over-train?
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Most of the time people here say lift heavy things, they're deciphering from the "toning" that people can do where they lift 5-10 pounds and do massive reps. Personally, having had tried that for several months, prior to beginning SL 5x5, I like lifting heavier. I've seen more results out of my body, thus its less frustrating and more productive to where I want to go. This does not mean that I'm able to DL massive amounts, (quite happy with my 155).
Basically it sounds like you hired someone to teach you something, that didn't work out for you and you're projecting it on to everyone else.
You need to but look at people like usmcmp, ss, sara and alloutofbubblegum, to see the results they've had. You need to understand that these people are very inspirational to the members of MFP, so your "crap" comment isn't going to go over to well.0 -
thesupremeforce wrote: »I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.
I agree with this. I think you're very concerned about a problem that doesn't really exist - unless the newbies (like me) are foolishly jumping in head first without taking personal responsibility to moderate themselves. Everyone - everyone - I've spoken to on MFP and at the gyms and the research I've done suggested I perfect my form first, then gradually add weight - five pound increments, etc. Several suggested - and I've complied - one new strength exercise at a time. There must be common sense involved.0 -
OP, actually I get what you are saying. There are a few people on this site who clearly know what they are doing. Most of them are also the ones who love lifting but do not act like everything else is useless. And then there are posters who appear to think that a dance class per week makes you a stupic cardio bunny, that isolation exercises are useless, machines are for geriatric patients, most sports are not going to help you increase strength, and pretty much the beginning and end of training is doing the basic compound lifts. ND NOTHING ELSE. And if you do nto like it, or cannot do it right, you are a scared person doomed to never being fit. Oh, and HIIT, HIIT is trendy too, even though what half the posters who preach about it, clearly have no clue what it is.
Do not get me wrong, I like lifting. I am doing it. But telling every single person who posts here that 5 compound lifts are the beginning and end of fitness, regardless of this person's body type, health issues, strength, goals and personal preferences, it is both ridiculous and dangerous. It is awesome to encourage people to try lifting and to let them know that everyone can get there, that deadlifts are not something for bulky bodybuilders wishing to get into competitions. But it is ridiculous to treat the 2-3 popular programs the new enthusiasts here are so fond of as some sort of holy bible for getting in shape.
And form: no, I do nto believe that the average person who has never exercised, will watch a few videos and read a book, will not talk to a trainer and is not in a gym to get tips from others, but will actually figure out the correct form for most compound exercises. Will perhaps be able to parrot what correct form should look like, but will not do it. And will also have no clue what he/she is doing wrong, and will jsut feel so smug for doing it right.
Get in the average gym and see how many regulars can do even a bodyweight squat properly. While most of them thing they are doing it perfectly, even with a trainer telling that what to fix. I doubt the posters here are so different and all just get it immediately after reading a book.
who are these people?
if you cannot name them, then you are just creating a straw man argument to support the OP.
I always tell people to find something that they like to do and preference that with saying that my personal preference is strength training and that if they WANT to do the same ten they should look into x programs and make sure they learn proper form…
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madslacker wrote: »
My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.
My quads my have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my knees (that had been abused by years of supporting my fat frame) were unfortunately not.
What I feel was needed, before ever trying to attempt a progressive strength building routine, was months of conditioning. Months of building the mind/body connection so that my form would be perfect. Months of strengthening the supportive muscles and stabilizers to prepare to attempt to build strength.
I think that's the kind of cautionary approach that should be taken by the new people out there. Not everyone will run into my particular problems or any at all - but the issue is that you don't always know you're going to be susceptible to these kinds of injuries until they happen (again, caused by lack of conditioning - sometimes for YEARS).
Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?
No, you are just where you should be. You've made progress. You've learned the basics of lifting and have reached the point where the main lifts need more accessory work to improve those supportive and stabilizer muscles.
Yes, a trainer should have included some one arm and one leg exercises to encourage greater stabilization of supportive muscles. Even with months of "conditioning" you may not have ever realized you had those issues until you reached the point where your strength was great enough to show you that your joints can't keep up. Now you can either learn how to work around those weak points or improve them.
Barbell bench press and back squats aren't the only compound exercises that work those muscles. There are others that require lighter weights, greater stabilization and still work the same muscles. Feel free to go do some conditioning if that's what you would like. Your experience doesn't mean that lifting was a bad idea for you.
^ this …
and your experience does not invalidate lifting for every other beginner…
I hate running, does that mean that I can tell every other person out there not to run? Of course not….
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OP, actually I get what you are saying. There are a few people on this site who clearly know what they are doing. Most of them are also the ones who love lifting but do not act like everything else is useless. And then there are posters who appear to think that a dance class per week makes you a stupic cardio bunny, that isolation exercises are useless, machines are for geriatric patients, most sports are not going to help you increase strength, and pretty much the beginning and end of training is doing the basic compound lifts. ND NOTHING ELSE. And if you do nto like it, or cannot do it right, you are a scared person doomed to never being fit. Oh, and HIIT, HIIT is trendy too, even though what half the posters who preach about it, clearly have no clue what it is.
Do not get me wrong, I like lifting. I am doing it. But telling every single person who posts here that 5 compound lifts are the beginning and end of fitness, regardless of this person's body type, health issues, strength, goals and personal preferences, it is both ridiculous and dangerous. It is awesome to encourage people to try lifting and to let them know that everyone can get there, that deadlifts are not something for bulky bodybuilders wishing to get into competitions. But it is ridiculous to treat the 2-3 popular programs the new enthusiasts here are so fond of as some sort of holy bible for getting in shape.
And form: no, I do nto believe that the average person who has never exercised, will watch a few videos and read a book, will not talk to a trainer and is not in a gym to get tips from others, but will actually figure out the correct form for most compound exercises. Will perhaps be able to parrot what correct form should look like, but will not do it. And will also have no clue what he/she is doing wrong, and will jsut feel so smug for doing it right.
Get in the average gym and see how many regulars can do even a bodyweight squat properly. While most of them thing they are doing it perfectly, even with a trainer telling that what to fix. I doubt the posters here are so different and all just get it immediately after reading a book.
who are these people?
if you cannot name them, then you are just creating a straw man argument to support the OP.
I always tell people to find something that they like to do and preference that with saying that my personal preference is strength training and that if they WANT to do the same ten they should look into x programs and make sure they learn proper form…
So you know I was not referring to you
But we see this almost daily on this forum, it is impossible to miss it.
There are people who are really passionate about lifting and really know what they are talking about, and these people are passionate in a nice way and more than helpful.
But there are also many who just keep repeating "you NEED to lift heavy, you NEED to focus on weights, you NEED to follow stronglifts or new rules of lifting" and so on, being extremely dismissive of any other form of exercise, being sarcastic at best when someone just does not want or is scared to follow these programs.
To someone who has been exercising for a while, they sound ignorant. But to someone who is clueless, and who is already scared and trying to figure out where to start? I am not so sure. I have seen threads where, depending on the combination of people who happen to be online I guess, there is a mob mentality of "you really should be lifting, you are a failure if you do not lift heavy, do squats and more squats and deadlifts", repeated like a mantra. I am pretty sure that most posters just use their judgement, but I am not at all sure that there are not some poor guys/gilrs who feel they are pathetic if they do not follow this "advice", as if it is wrong for a beginner to feel more comfortable working with smaller dumbbells, or resistance bands or machines.
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I still think I failed to make my point.
I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
In my case, I probably started out with a bit of impingement of the rotator cuff, inflamation, and maybe a bit of wear and tear arthritis.
Lifting with the goal of progression (specifically without giving myself adequate time to resolve existing issues) seems to have aggravated conditions that were otherwise symptomless.
It is essentially this. Before you start a strength training program, you have to be healthy enough to do so. Sure you could go to a doctor to make that determination - but without expensive diagnostic procedures he'll really just be guessing (running some general tests to determine if particular movements cause you pain or not). Ultimately, you won't know if you have a physical landmine until you step on it - greatly complicating continued efforts.
I generalized because I don't think I'm a minority and I think there is a fair amount of injury that occurs for similar reasons. I suspect that there are prerequisite activities that if followed would prepare your average fatty (like myself) for the strain that lifting puts on the body and mitigate some of the problems I ran into.
This wasn't an attack on people here or the community in general. It was more an observation/frustration at a general mentality I see in the online fitness community in general.0 -
Okay, but how do they get healthy without exercise?0
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AllanMisner wrote: »Okay, but how do they get healthy without exercise?
I don't know what that general conditioning program would look like unfortunately. Nor did I realize I would need it until I stepped on my particular landmine(s).
Maybe it's yoga? Body weight exercises? Maybe the same program designed for people coming off of an injury or surgery? Years of neglect is probably just as harmful as sudden trauma (if not worse?).
I don't know what would have helped in my case. I suppose that's part of the reason for this thread.
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madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Okay, but how do they get healthy without exercise?
I don't know what that general conditioning program would look like unfortunately. Nor did I realize I would need it until I stepped on my particular landmine(s).
Maybe it's yoga? Body weight exercises? Maybe the same program designed for people coming off of an injury or surgery? Years of neglect is probably just as harmful as sudden trauma (if not worse?).
I don't know what would have helped in my case. I suppose that's part of the reason for this thread.
Based on what you posted, I’d say a better trainer. Yours didn’t teach form, didn’t set you up at an appropriate progression, and didn’t give you a program. Not sure what you got from them.0 -
madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Okay, but how do they get healthy without exercise?
I don't know what that general conditioning program would look like unfortunately. Nor did I realize I would need it until I stepped on my particular landmine(s).
Maybe it's yoga? Body weight exercises? Maybe the same program designed for people coming off of an injury or surgery? Years of neglect is probably just as harmful as sudden trauma (if not worse?).
I don't know what would have helped in my case. I suppose that's part of the reason for this thread.
I fail to see how you simply think what you did was that inappropriate. You made progress and you reached a point where you learned you needed more than just the program you are on. That's the way that every single person who lifts develops. We start a program and find that we need to modify or add work to bring up our weak points. It's not a condition unique to people who are new.0 -
madslacker wrote: »I still think I failed to make my point.
I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
In my case, I probably started out with a bit of impingement of the rotator cuff, inflamation, and maybe a bit of wear and tear arthritis.
Lifting with the goal of progression (specifically without giving myself adequate time to resolve existing issues) seems to have aggravated conditions that were otherwise symptomless.
It is essentially this. Before you start a strength training program, you have to be healthy enough to do so. Sure you could go to a doctor to make that determination - but without expensive diagnostic procedures he'll really just be guessing (running some general tests to determine if particular movements cause you pain or not). Ultimately, you won't know if you have a physical landmine until you step on it - greatly complicating continued efforts.
I generalized because I don't think I'm a minority and I think there is a fair amount of injury that occurs for similar reasons. I suspect that there are prerequisite activities that if followed would prepare your average fatty (like myself) for the strain that lifting puts on the body and mitigate some of the problems I ran into.
This wasn't an attack on people here or the community in general. It was more an observation/frustration at a general mentality I see in the online fitness community in general.
I think you did too much too fast with improper training, bad form and now are looking to push the blame on everyone and everything else.
I have a mine field of injuries. You want to talk impingement, both hips and right shoulder. Both hips also have labral tears and right shoulder has fraying of the labrum. That's what impingement affects, the labrum. All of my doctors, and the kings-men have told humpty dumpty that he needs to get strong to protect all these joints. They also made me sit out of training for two years, but that was due to surgical procedures and the fact that rehabbing a hip surgery is a long process when it's not a total replacement. Add a shoulder injury into that and your sidelined for awhile. My PT and doctors started me back to lifting this past November after testing me on proper form and my plan. I started with a 15 lbs. 6' training bar. Sure I had lifted before and was used to loading a lot more weight, but you're crazy if you think I would start with a load. I didn't switch to the 45 lbs oly bar until January, and even then all warm ups started with the 15. Things have progressed nicely, but slow. Not complaining about the time. It Is What It IS.
Next up is surgery on my right hip for impingement and labral tear. I'll be out another six months. Guess where I'll start with the lifting. Yes, the 15lbs training bar; but that will be after I perfect movements in the pool, followed by body weight. Got to perfect the movements and protect the joints.
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westcoastgrl21 wrote: »thesupremeforce wrote: »I stopped taking you seriously following your inflammatory title, and was glad that I did so. You didn't say anything of actual substance. I don't think I've ever come across a beginning lifting program that didn't do exactly what you're claiming should be done.
+1
+2
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OP fighting a losing battle for.0
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OP you must be new......curious do you even lift??0
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perseverance14 wrote: »I lost a lot of weight but I was actually not weak when I started last April at 45 lbs, 35 lb. bar with 2 5 lb. weights. I read the instructions for StrongLifts and watched the videos every time, over and over and over. I video myself and watch it over and over and over. I was in a car accident in early December where I got a bad left-side only whiplash (got hit on Drivers side) and the insurance company said to me the only reason they thought I didn't get hurt worse was because I lift weights (I had to tell them because I asked for diagnostics at the hospital/Doctor to make sure I could go right back to it when I felt well enough). I had to start all over, back to 40 lbs. (I have fractionals now) after a lot of progression for 9 months. I am making great progress, I have used weight lifting as my physical therapy. I don't notice the difference between sides anymore. I am 53, and to say you should not do it if there is not some physical limitation is BS, it is the best thing you can do for yourself as you age, and if you can do it you should (that last sentence was not my opinion, that was my Doctor's opinion).
Please don't discourage people when lifting can be the right thing for them. I got hurt doing cardio, even HIIT for years, I got a hiatal hernia and got depressed as it gave me a lot of problems like GERD, I hardly exercised for a year and gained 20 lbs. on top of the 50 extra I already had, 25 of which would come and go doing HIIT all the time.
Weight lifting is helping me be strong and get/stay in shape. I don't have much weight left to lose, but I don't even care anymore because I am more interested in transforming my body. Cardio never did that for me, and I am not against cardio, but I do mostly walking for my cardio now...and that hernia? I don't even notice it anymore and my GERD is long gone.
Don't discourage people, let them find out what is right for them, if I listened to you I would not have done StrongLifts, and it has been the best thing for me out of anything I have ever tried.
Well said!!! 0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »You hired a trainer to teach you form, yet didn’t learn proper form? The trainer let you start too heavy and progress too fast? And then you were left to find your own program?
Looks like OP is pointing his finger at the wrong person.0 -
madslacker wrote: »I still think I failed to make my point.
I think that if you've been obese, inactive, poor posture and poor diet for many years there's a good chance that you require some sort of conditioning before beginning.
In my case, I probably started out with a bit of impingement of the rotator cuff, inflamation, and maybe a bit of wear and tear arthritis.
Lifting with the goal of progression (specifically without giving myself adequate time to resolve existing issues) seems to have aggravated conditions that were otherwise symptomless.
It is essentially this. Before you start a strength training program, you have to be healthy enough to do so. Sure you could go to a doctor to make that determination - but without expensive diagnostic procedures he'll really just be guessing (running some general tests to determine if particular movements cause you pain or not). Ultimately, you won't know if you have a physical landmine until you step on it - greatly complicating continued efforts.
I generalized because I don't think I'm a minority and I think there is a fair amount of injury that occurs for similar reasons. I suspect that there are prerequisite activities that if followed would prepare your average fatty (like myself) for the strain that lifting puts on the body and mitigate some of the problems I ran into.
This wasn't an attack on people here or the community in general. It was more an observation/frustration at a general mentality I see in the online fitness community in general.
que the epic back track ...
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You can't be serious.- Not a lot of people have access to good face-to-face instruction. Lots can't afford it, but also, there's a lack of good instruction at a lot of gyms. So even those who can afford a trainer sometimes come up craps
That's due to a failure in proper research. I live in BFE. Seriously, Thai food and food trucks are the new "hot trends". That came, got hot, and chilled about what, 15 years ago in LA?
I decided I wanted to learn olympic lifting. So instead of going to the Y and asking for a derptrainer, or going to a crossfit place to sign up with an unknown who got his weekend certification last week. I got on teh innerwebbinz did some research, contacted the state president of the coaching system I wanted to find a coach from, and then got a referral based on my specific parameters provided to the person I contacted.
We're talking like, sub 2 hours of research, and three emails to find quality. It's not hard, it just requires a teeny bit of work.
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madslacker wrote: »So, yeah. I wasn't trolling and actually had a point I was trying to make.
My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.....
Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?
See the bolded...you've already identified the problem...it wasn't lifting and doing compound movements...you started with too high of a weight...you may have felt comfortable with it, but it was too high.
I most definitely agree that people will need to condition themselves, and particularly condition the smaller stabilizing muscles and tendons and whatnot...you do this by starting with a weight that is pretty much uncomfortably easy...like leave your ego at the door and don't worry about everyone thinking you're a total pansy *kitten* easy. I don't think you're off your rocker, I just think you did what a lot of people do...you jumped in too deep too early.
When I got back into lifting after being away from it for a good 15 years + I started with Starting Strength. I started out uncomfortably easy...I felt like a total wuss because the weight was so obviously easy for me to lift...but I followed the program starting from ultra wuss level and moved up. To boot, I made sure I listened to my body...I didn't just pile on an extra 5 Lbs or 10Lbs because some book told me to...I listened to my body and at points took a step back...repeated a week or two, etc. Using my common sense, I told myself that this program is optimally designed for someone in a surplus and I'm in a deficit...thus I'm going to have to go slower and my progress is going to be slower than it otherwise would be...I did a rinse and repeat as necessary until I was comfortable with a certain weight.
I disagree that it is irresponsible to tell people to do compound lifts...they are the best lifts you can do...people just need to follow a program and not get ahead of themselves. That's the problem...people are in a hurry...I see it all of the time here on MFP...people want instant fitness awesomeness and they just need to slow down and take more time. That's it...it's not the exercise, it's the person performing the exercise not using basic common sense a lot of the time (outside of medical issues obviously).0
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