steroid use ...
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People compete in sports today that can have catastrophic results. Boxing, luge, skeleton, parkour, skydiving, NASCAR, etc. Even without drugs, these sports have resulted in deaths.The issue with simply saying "have at it" and let everyone use what they want, is that eventually the drug use will get pushed too far and people will die. Sure these things can be used in a safe manner, but if everyone uses it, then the risks of bad side effects for one person could be catastrophic.
See what happened to Tom Simpson for an example of what happens when doping becomes deadly, because the doping itself becomes the arms race.
Again I'm not condoning PED use, but to think that everyone who competes at a pro level and for millions of dollars is natural? It'll never happen. And really the fans of these sports don't really care that much. They get entertained. Look at Major League baseball after the strike. Baseball got SO EXCITING when McGwire and Sosa were vying for the homerun record. Even people who weren't baseball fans were watching.
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No. I competed as a natural in natural contests and you know the guys who do use and compete in the same contest. They usually won.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »In regards to the bodybuilding, there aren't any natural comps here so I am not familiar but is there a difference in the look the judges prefer? I mean, are you going to see people/winners who have the "freak" look (using a word that has been used here) or do you still see a smaller, more natural look even though steroids may be used?
I would think that if the more natural look is preferred then it would at least be possible to compete against those who use steroids whereas in the other organizations, it is pretty much impossible to level up without taking something.
Just wondering.
Yes, there are natural competitions, but you can look at the competitors and it’s like looking a A&F model next to the Hulk. Fans want to see Hulks, not boys. The women’s competition has split into multiple sets (bodybuilders, fitness models, etc.) because women were beginning to not look like women.
I know there are natural competitions. I am asking a differene in the looks between a natural competition and the other federations.
Difference in look is usually size, leanness (how grainy their muscles look), and fullness of the muscle bellies.
Thanks. My question really was, is it easier to compete as a natural in a natural show even with people who use?
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However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
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Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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You mean a start.
Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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neither here nor there, but it will be a bit before the Dodgers get back on the heap, sadly. As long as it is a California national league team, I'm happy.
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Just a quick note: if some are disappointed in PED use in sports.....................wait till gene doping happens. At that level, there won't be any definitive test to tell if someone has taken advantage.
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Already a lot of research on that happening.0
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<<<---Cardinal fan. All your points are moot.0
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The Padres and Dodgers went crazy in free agency signings. Lol, all we got was an aging Aoki and McGee.
You mean a start.
Now I realize where the hate comes from. Just reminding you that 3 Championships in 5 years is a dynasty.
Lol, I've met Bonds and personally he was really nice and signed a hat for me. He was cool to all the GIANTS fans.If I were a young athlete, one of my reasons for not using might be that eventually I'll be elite enough to be regulated/tested/caught/penalized for using it. Not the best reason to avoid using steroids, of course, but certainly something to consider ...
Those tests are easy to avoid, and really... the only ones getting "caught" are the ones being turned in by their team mates or coaching staff. Generally because they're world class a-holes, like barry bonds.
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cuz Gigantes fans don't have high enough standards.
my wife is a giants fan, I'm a dodgers fan. It gets frosty.
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neither here nor there, but it will be a bit before the Dodgers get back on the heap, sadly. As long as it is a California national league team, I'm happy.
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I don't acknowledge the existence of the Padres. Lol0
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In my experience its common and not really tabboo, but more and more people seem to be of the opinion that the risks outweigh the benefits. Oh, and those risks are much higher in younger people. I think steroid use in under 25s is pretty reckless... In fully developed adults I guess sensible use is safe enough?0
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Try a USAPL meet, they don't even allow a TUE. So most of the lifters will be currently natural.
Drug tested does not mean drug free. It just means they aren't on a heavy dose at the time.
On a side not, the ipf (which usapl is under) has some *kitten* rules that I want nothing to do with that go beyond drug use.0 -
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »
What about conversations related to Testosterone Replacement Therapy?
That is legal as prescribed by a doctor. Prescribed HGH is also an interesting and valid topic, IMO. So far, I don’t think anyone has pushed illegal use. Only acknowledged that it appears to work and hasn’t been studied. I think the increased legal usage of these substances is going to yield a good bit of data (some great, some bad).
I have a buddy that works for a different Anti-Aging center than where I go and they do prescribe HGH. What's interesting is that it's a cash-only business, no insurance is accepted. But it is a big business here in Vegas, it's not like some underground behind-the-scenes business.
What ballpark cost does that even run in? I was thinking of checking an anti-aging center locally for hgh and thyroid discussion, but won't until I know what the ballpark figure is. My test-c is only $10 a month on my insurance.
I don't recall the exact price he told me but the price was out of any ball park and probably out of Yellowstone park, it was expensive. Put it this way, with insurance my out-of-pocket is $60/week and I just use HSA contributions to cover it.0 -
3dogsrunning wrote: »
However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
Along the same lines of the eye surgery, would you consider a man with hypogonadism using TRT just to be normal cheating? I don't play sports anymore, but let's hypothetically say I play AAA baseball. When I was 33 my total Test was 202 and 198 (low / outside of healthy range low), so i began TRT. Now, my total Test averages between 670 and 680 between blood tests which is approximately 10 to 20 points above average for my age range. Is that cheating because I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age? Is it different than corrective vision for somebody that plays a sport?0 -
High end anti-aging - including a variety steroids, hormones, EPO, office visits and whatnot - is generally around $1k/month.
(All legal.)
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which is why, as I mentioned, I said that most of the lifters will be currently au naturale.Shawshankcan wrote: »Try a USAPL meet, they don't even allow a TUE. So most of the lifters will be currently natural.
Drug tested does not mean drug free. It just means they aren't on a heavy dose at the time.
On a side not, the ipf (which usapl is under) has some *kitten* rules that I want nothing to do with that go beyond drug use.
Doesn't mean they're natty, just off cycle enough to have a reasonable belief that they won't be caught.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
However someone's physical being (eyes) was surgically enhanced to do it. Even wearing corrective glasses changes depth perception vs what the natural eye sees.3dogsrunning wrote: »3dogsrunning wrote: »
I think that it's subjective to a point. Tiger Woods got Lasik. Depth perception is a big factor in golf. So by getting Lasik, did he attain an unfair advantage over his peers? Had he just kept the eyesight he had, would he have attained the status as a pro as he has now?
I think they're assuming competitions. If you are claiming you are clean to compete against other people who are, it would be cheating. If you are using them because you want to be bigger and you just workout for you, eh, that's your business.How am I cheating anyone? I train for myself, compete in no sports, not governed by any bodies. You cant say hey you're bigger than me you're cheating. Cheating what?
And I'm assuming (based on what they are), the side effects would be more severe in younger teens since they can inhibit development. Of course, you know what they say about assumptions...
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I had LASIK done. It gave me normal eyesight. No different than glasses. Would glasses also be cheating?
I do believe it is still cheating in competition even if "everyone" is doing it so long as the rules are there against it and there is a possibility of being penalized .
Some times people get Lasik and their vision is better than normal (20-15 or so). Since it is putting that person at higher than their potential, would that be cheating?
It is still within the realm of normal vision.
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Again I don't know why he got the surgery. Was it to fix his prescription or was it to gain an advantage.
It's been years since I've had it done but when I did it was not exactly an exact science at that time. They could not guarantee what my prescription would be when I was done. Or how long it would stay. It wasn't a matter of rolling in and walking out with 20/20 or 20/15 vision. And there were risks. It very well could have gone the other way.
Things may have improved since I've had it done but it wasn't something I would have considered would necessarily give someone an advantage.
Along the same lines of the eye surgery, would you consider a man with hypogonadism using TRT just to be normal cheating? I don't play sports anymore, but let's hypothetically say I play AAA baseball. When I was 33 my total Test was 202 and 198 (low / outside of healthy range low), so i began TRT. Now, my total Test averages between 670 and 680 between blood tests which is approximately 10 to 20 points above average for my age range. Is that cheating because I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age? Is it different than corrective vision for somebody that plays a sport?
I'm not really sure why you are directing that at me. My arguement was that the corrective surgery may not necessarily be cheating. So if it is similar to the treatment you are describing, I don't think I would consider that either. But I am not familiar with TRT and "normal" test levels (I"m gathering from previous posts in this thread that normal can be widely interpreted) so I can't really answer.
I have also acknowledged that there are grey areas.
I'm not sure how my "if you are doing something to gain a competitive edge, it's cheating" translates to "I just want to have the appropriate level of health for my age" is the same thing.0
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