Low carb dieters!

jennibean40 wrote: »

And how many times are you going to quote that same first passage, when i immediately corrected my statement by saying that i dont INTENTIONALLY restrict calories, as a low calorie dieter would.

You mean this...

"Let me rephrase.. i dont keep track of calories. Any diet will restrict calories to some degree. If you go low carb.. you automatically cut out calorie high foods. So yes your calorie count goes down. But say i consume 1200 calories a day that include high carbs... my weight loss slows (practically stops) as compared to a 1200 calorie diet that is low in carbs and i lose .5-.6 lbs a day. The only difference is the carb count. Therefore the restriction of carbs is what helps the weight come off."

You recanted by saying you did not track so how can you say the bolded with any kind of certainty...?

OP you are all over the place. I am glad it's working for you though...

I'm by no means an expert, but from what I've read I think there is some good science behind it. The CICO rule definitely still applies, but a low-carbohydrate diet does encourage the production of liver enzymes that oxidize fatty acids. As far as I know (from my physiology/biochem textbooks & classes), whether these fatty acids come from food or from fat stores doesn't matter very much - the process for introducing them into the bloodstream to be oxidized into Acetyl-CoA in the liver and go on to produce useable energy is roughly the same.

So when you up your triacylglyceride intake and lower your glucose intake, you start a hormonal/genetic cascade that increases your production of hormones and enzymes that oxidize fatty acids and downregulates some of the enzymes that oxidize sugars (as your body has less of a reason to maintain them) - so you shift your metabolism towards fats. Ultimately, it is possible to be in a state of primarily "fat burning" with lowered catabolism of muscle. (see http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_oxidation)

A few caveats, though: First, if your caloric deficit is too high it doesn't matter what your macros look like - you're going to be breaking down muscle. Second, just upping fat intake without going fully low carb inhibits gastric motility through a few hormones - so it can help your diet. Apparently (and this is just via a few studies that IMO are kind of flawed) people sometimes tend to overestimate how many calories they consume when on a ketogenic (primarily fat) diet. I don't know if this is accurate but it could explain some people's stated ability to "beat" the CICO rule.

TL;DR there's a lot of good science that supports the efficacy of a high-fat/low-carb diet. BUT success on the diet relies heavily on proper caloric intake (i.e. maintaining a moderate deficit). It is likely that many people who don't intentionally restrict caloric intake are inadvertently doing that without realizing it due to hormonal changes from their diet.

Sorry for the wall of text

Unfortunately too true, and it really hurts the credibility of the "diet." I personally do low carb because it works well for me, and I watch CICO. On days when I don't feel like watching in/out I can still be pretty confident that I'm not going over due to the mechanics of the diet. It's worked for me in gaining weight and dropping weight.

I can't imagine doing a specialized diet like keto or atkins, though, without making sure I understand the science. Heck, even Dr. Atkins questioned his own science and referred some of his patients to other physicians with different views when the diet didn't work for them. Ultimately, VLC/keto is a medical diet and it can seriously mess you up. I think understanding the science can only protect you and maximize efficiency.

mastakoala wrote: »

Unfortunately too true, and it really hurts the credibility of the "diet." I personally do low carb because it works well for me, and I watch CICO. On days when I don't feel like watching in/out I can still be pretty confident that I'm not going over due to the mechanics of the diet. It's worked for me in gaining weight and dropping weight.

I can't imagine doing a specialized diet like keto or atkins, though, without making sure I understand the science. Heck, even Dr. Atkins questioned his own science and referred some of his patients to other physicians with different views when the diet didn't work for them. Ultimately, VLC/keto is a medical diet and it can seriously mess you up. I think understanding the science can only protect you and maximize efficiency.

Amen...

Hey - I've read the study that the image (hosted through a blogspot article) you posted is from - for those who are curious here's the link: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/26/2/197.full.pdf

Here's an expansion on that plot:


This study took place in 1973, when many of the mechanisms of lipid and protein breakdown were not as well-understood as they are today. The study showed that the human body is very good at "switching over" to fat breakdown. The study also showed that simply a switch in calories to primarily fat calories without reducing caloric intake did not lead to sustained weight loss. Note that the study was not long-term, the period of high sustained weight loss was in the introductory phase of the diet, and weight loss was achieved most effectively when a caloric deficit was maintained.

Initial weight loss during this study can be explained in two ways (knowing what we do today about metabolism): (1) Initial consumption of glycogen stores leading to excretion of water - this can be up to several lbs. (2) Actual caloric deficit as the human body takes several days to ramp up fatty acid-oxidizing enzymes. This means that in the early days of a high fat intake, you absolutely will see detectable fat loss, but it won't continue at this rate as your liver gets better at dealing with fats.

Unfortunately, the picture you posted is misleading and many articles take that study out of context or fail to state the entirety of the study. In reality, the study does not disprove the CICO "rule" - it helps to confirm it, but adds the (very necessary) nuance that the "calorie out" part of CICO has a lot to do with how quickly your body can adapt to a dietary change in the short term.

ndj1979 wrote: »

OK - well you are simply doing the same thing. If you want to ignore calories in vs calories out because you don't want to gain great…it does not invalidate the formula...

the formula is fine, it just has too many unknowns.