it is probably not "muscle"
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newbie gains - when on obese beginner (or just a person that is new to lifting) begins a lifting regimen, is eating in a deficit, and gains some new muscle while eating in a deficit.0
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So, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.0 -
Anyone else want to join me in partaking of the popcorn?-1 -
So, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.
Not opinion. Science. You can still cut on a power lifting program. You won't gain new muscle in a deficit.0 -
PrizePopple wrote: »
Anyone else want to join me in partaking of the popcorn?
I am partaking in unrealistic expectations-1 -
PrizePopple wrote: »
Anyone else want to join me in partaking of the popcorn?
I am partaking in unrealistic expectations
Can you pour melted butter over that?-1 -
So, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.
its not my opinion ..its backed up by studies as well and lyle mcdonald breaks it down pretty well here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
dont understand your point in the bolded part…
or is there one?0 -
Can you tell me more about the performance athlete who can gain muscle in a deficit? What the performance levels may be, do you mean like athletes that compete like sprinters who workout for hours per day?0
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I would guess that when one has a significant amount of body fat, this can supply a large amount of calories to the body even when "eating" is at a deficit, thus supplying enough energy for muscle building to take place under the right circumstances. This is all speculation, of course. But in these cases I think that the use of "caloric deficit" may require more context than it is typically given.0
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Can you tell me more about the performance athlete who can gain muscle in a deficit? What the performance levels may be, do you mean like athletes that compete like sprinters who workout for hours per day?
I believe they are referring to Olympic Athletes, NFL players etc.
I have not see anything on sprinters…..0 -
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I would like you to expand your theory on that please.LiftAllThePizzas wrote: »I would guess that when one has a significant amount of body fat, this can supply a large amount of calories to the body even when "eating" is at a deficit, thus supplying enough energy for muscle building to take place under the right circumstances. This is all speculation, of course. But in these cases I think that the use of "caloric deficit" may require more context than it is typically given.
Tell me if this is what you mean:
(A)An obese individual would require a specific amount of calories to maintain basic life function plus sufficient energy to ward off muscle tissue catabolism, (B)the number of calories that person would need to maintain an obese weight can be very high, (C)they knock off sufficient calories to be in a nice deficit but at the same time the difference between A and C would provide enough extra nutrition to provide a positive nitrogen balance as well as glycogen, GH1, insulin etc to promote hypertrophy?
Not in that amount of detail, but yeah pretty much. Like I said it's pure speculation. What I was thinking was 1: what controls how much fat (energy) is released from fat cells when it is needed? And B: is this mechanism lock-stepped with actual energy needs, or can it be overridden/out of tune? (I'm fairly certain it can be out of tune, because IIRC nicotine causes fat cells to do this.)
So if more fat is being released from the cells than is needed for basic functions, where would the excess go? Would it free up dietary protein (and energy, etc) to be used for muscle building?
Also, I would think "deficit" and "surplus" are not a single system-wide thing because some cells might see the situation differently than others. (Isn't that pretty much what happens when newbie gains occur?)0 -
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1. The obese beginner that starts out and is doing weight training where they lift progressively heavier things.
2. High performance athletes.
Can I ask why it's different for the obese beginner?
Are they more likely to build muscle in a deficit than a non-obese beginner?
(BTW not questioning because I don't believe it or anything, I am just interested!
) 0 -
People who are very overweight are usually insulin resistant to some degree. Insulin resistance tends to develop as you gain fat. It appears to represent an attempt by your body to stop you gaining more, or to help you lose fat once the excess calories are removed from your diet.SilverRose89 wrote: »1. The obese beginner that starts out and is doing weight training where they lift progressively heavier things.
2. High performance athletes.
Can I ask why it's different for the obese beginner?
Are they more likely to build muscle in a deficit than a non-obese beginner?
(BTW not questioning because I don't believe it or anything, I am just interested! )
Insulin is primarily a storage hormone. It helps to drive nutrients, such as glucose, from your blood into the cells of your body. High levels of insulin also inhibit the rate at which stored fat is mobilized (i.e. broken down and prepared to be burned off).
But when fat cells are insulin resistant, insulin doesn’t have the same effect. Which means that even in the presence of high insulin levels, fat can still be mobilized for fuel. The overall effect is as though fat cells are “full up” and resisting further fat storage.
When an overweight beginner starts exercising and dieting, nutrients are diverted away from fat cells (which are still insulin resistant) and towards muscle, which has become more insulin sensitive as a result of the training. The uptake of glucose in insulin resistant muscle is also reduced. Because there’s less glucose available, muscle cells will burn more fat.
From:http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/0 -
Liftng4Lis wrote: »
People who are very overweight are usually insulin resistant to some degree. Insulin resistance tends to develop as you gain fat. It appears to represent an attempt by your body to stop you gaining more, or to help you lose fat once the excess calories are removed from your diet.SilverRose89 wrote: »1. The obese beginner that starts out and is doing weight training where they lift progressively heavier things.
2. High performance athletes.
Can I ask why it's different for the obese beginner?
Are they more likely to build muscle in a deficit than a non-obese beginner?
(BTW not questioning because I don't believe it or anything, I am just interested! )
Insulin is primarily a storage hormone. It helps to drive nutrients, such as glucose, from your blood into the cells of your body. High levels of insulin also inhibit the rate at which stored fat is mobilized (i.e. broken down and prepared to be burned off).
But when fat cells are insulin resistant, insulin doesn’t have the same effect. Which means that even in the presence of high insulin levels, fat can still be mobilized for fuel. The overall effect is as though fat cells are “full up” and resisting further fat storage.
When an overweight beginner starts exercising and dieting, nutrients are diverted away from fat cells (which are still insulin resistant) and towards muscle, which has become more insulin sensitive as a result of the training. The uptake of glucose in insulin resistant muscle is also reduced. Because there’s less glucose available, muscle cells will burn more fat.
From:http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/
Brilliant explanation, thanks :flowerforyou:0 -
I know there was a study conducted a few years back and reviewed obese and or overweight folks in 3 separate groups of exercise. Aerobic, resistance, and a combo of the two. The group losing the greatest amount of fat was the aerobic group; the one which gained the most muscle(and/or lost the least amount of weight) was the resistance group. Stanford? Cleveland Clinic? Vanderbilt? Duke? one of these entities conducted the study. Where I read it, how long ago. . . .got me.
I'm digging for it. . . .0 -
So, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.
its not my opinion ..its backed up by studies as well and lyle mcdonald breaks it down pretty well here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
dont understand your point in the bolded part…
or is there one?
I think they're wanting to isolate the specific workout day and not eat at a deficit on that day in hopes of [continuing to] build muscle. Some people have expressed thoughts that you can build muscle in one day, cut the next...
Of course this is just my speculation
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Yeah, no, there is no scientific proof that you cannot build muscle on a deficit, and no scientific proof you can. I find it interesting that many of the people who believe you cant gain muscle on a deficit, also seem to have an un-reasoned special category for the "elite athletes" saying they can do it too, when in fact if you read the studies these same try to use as proof, it tends to indicate keeping a higher body fat may be a key to gaining some muscle on a deficit, not magical "elite-ness". But really does it matter? Why argue something you dont know anyways? Science does not equal belief. A couple studies interpreted by laypeople to their own preferred conclusions do not make it "science" or a given. The truth is the jury is out, and there are plenty of anecdotal cases where it seems to happen.
Is it likely to happen? No. Is it optimal? No. = don't do it for muscle gains!
Are random new exercisers likely to gain muscle when they start weight training? We don't know for sure, but probably no to a little. Is it the +5lbs of muscle they think it is? No. Are they a lot better off keeping enthusiasm for their strength gains whether or not is muscle? YES! = keep it going!
Fact of the matter is you can gain strength while on a deficit, focus on this, steer someone to keep this going instead. Why try to nit-pick and deflate someone's enthusiasm so you can try to be a know it all and say its probably not muscle?
Especially since you would be flat out wrong, you can, people do, we just don't know the exact conditions that limit it, and its not good for gaining muscle and certainly NOT OPTIMAL.0 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »Yeah, no, there is no scientific proof that you cannot build muscle on a deficit, and no scientific proof you can. I find it interesting that many of the people who believe you cant gain muscle on a deficit, also seem to have an un-reasoned special category for the "elite athletes" saying they can do it too, when in fact if you read the studies these same try to use as proof, it tends to indicate keeping a higher body fat may be a key to gaining some muscle on a deficit, not magical "elite-ness". But really does it matter? Why argue something you dont know anyways? Science does not equal belief. A couple studies interpreted by laypeople to their own preferred conclusions do not make it "science" or a given. The truth is the jury is out, and there are plenty of anecdotal cases where it seems to happen.
Is it likely to happen? No. Is it optimal? No. = don't do it for muscle gains!
Are random new exercisers likely to gain muscle when they start weight training? We don't know for sure, but probably no to a little. Is it the +5lbs of muscle they think it is? No. Are they a lot better off keeping enthusiasm for their strength gains whether or not is muscle? YES! = keep it going!
Fact of the matter is you can gain strength while on a deficit, focus on this, steer someone to keep this going instead. Why try to nit-pick and deflate someone's enthusiasm so you can try to be a know it all and say its probably not muscle?
Especially since you would be flat out wrong, you can, people do, we just don't know the exact conditions that limit it, and its not good for gaining muscle and certainly NOT OPTIMAL.
Basically it's usually someone not losing weight or maybe even gaining weight asking WTH is going on. In come the flood of responses saying, don't worry, your muscles are just getting bigger while losing fat - keep doing what you're doing, no changes. What's your preferred response here?
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Those are all different cases, so different responses, and yeah in the new person's case its tough with bad responses telling them its all muscle. But to tell them they cannot build any muscle gets the next response: well why am I even working out then and getting sore?? Plus, with the made up rules, they are in the newbie category after all, so newbie gainzz!! Right?
I'd say try to get them to focus on maintaining to gaining strength and fine-tuning their caloric intake and stop thinking about how much is actually muscle, its near impossible to tell anyways. Ask them to go pick up 5 1lb steaks and think about whether they really put that much muscle on somewhere for the 5lbs they gained in 2 weeks, and why aren't there more people bigger than Arnold if people can gain muscle that fast, after all in just 1 year you could gain 125lbs of muscle this way right?!?!? ...I think that usually people start to get the concept this way.
I just get tired of people pretending they know you cannot gain any muscle while on a deficit, "cause its rulez and science", when there are no such rules, and the jury is out on the science since there are studies showing both results, and case studies actually make it likely probable in certain cases.0 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »Those are all different cases, so different responses, and yeah in the new person's case its tough with bad responses telling them its all muscle. But to tell them they cannot build any muscle gets the next response: well why am I even working out then and getting sore?? Plus, with the made up rules, they are in the newbie category after all, so newbie gainzz!! Right?
I'd say try to get them to focus on maintaining to gaining strength and fine-tuning their caloric intake and stop thinking about how much is actually muscle, its near impossible to tell anyways. Ask them to go pick up 5 1lb steaks and think about whether they really put that much muscle on somewhere for the 5lbs they gained in 2 weeks, and why aren't there more people bigger than Arnold if people can gain muscle that fast, after all in just 1 year you could gain 125lbs of muscle this way right?!?!? ...I think that usually people start to get the concept this way.
I just get tired of people pretending they know you cannot gain any muscle while on a deficit, "cause its rulez and science", when there are no such rules, and the jury is out on the science since there are studies showing both results, and case studies actually make it likely probable in certain cases.
Show me this please, because after a very slow year of recomp, I must be doing it wrong.0 -
I needed to hear this, OP. People so often throw around this idea about building muscle when weight loss stalls that it took me a few long weeks of equal parts denial and wishful thinking before I looked closely at my weekly calories and realized I was basically eating at maintenance. That was the cold hard truth about why I wasn't losing and I was glad to discover it. The funny/sad thing about it is that I almost bought the "must be gaining muscle" idea even though I'm not lifting. I'm mostly running and doing the odd Jillian workout. Lol.
Yes, I know, must start lifting...
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Nope, it takes long than one day for your body to build muscleSo, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.
its not my opinion ..its backed up by studies as well and lyle mcdonald breaks it down pretty well here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
dont understand your point in the bolded part…
or is there one?
I think they're wanting to isolate the specific workout day and not eat at a deficit on that day in hopes of [continuing to] build muscle. Some people have expressed thoughts that you can build muscle in one day, cut the next...
Of course this is just my speculation
Yes. That was what I meant. Thanks, JaneiR36!
I am quite curious what my body is doing. If being in any calorie deficit truly makes muscle gain impossible, how will lifting heavy affect me? Today my PB of bench pressing was 145 (after 3x3 of 135), my deadlift was 225, and my 4x4 machine squats were at 340. I was hoping to keep pushing those weights up even as I strive to lose about 50 pounds of body fat.0 -
So when people get stronger while lifting in a deficit, what is that strength attributed to? Additional muscles?
Just asking...fmi.0 -
Going to lay this one out there, because lately it seems like I am seeing this one a lot and it makes my head hurt.
It usually goes a little something like this…
OP comes into thread and says they are not losing and are on a 1200 calorie diet and are doing 30 minutes a day of "exercise", which does not involve a lifting program where one progressively lifts heavier weights.
Posters come into the thread and say "oh, you are just gaining muscle"
Sigh, I am sorry but a 1200 calories diet and doing a 30 minute a day cardio based program that MAY have some resistance training built into it, you are not gaining muscle.
Can you build muscle in a calorie deficit? Yes, you can but it is usually limited to two populations…
1. The obese beginner that starts out and is doing weight training where they lift progressively heavier things.
2. High performance athletes.
For the 90% of the rest of us we are not going to build muscle in a deficit.
Building muscle is hard work, and the fact that some think that it will just magically appear on a 1200 to 1400 calorie diet drives me crazy.
1200 calorie diet trying to build muscle??? LOLOLOLOLOL damn hippies.... Anyway I agree with you completely. The only thing you're gonna do with your muscles while weightlifting and on a deficit is just maintain it so your body doesn't cannibalize both the muscle and fat while you lose weight.-1
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