it is probably not "muscle"
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Yeah, no, there is no scientific proof that you cannot build muscle on a deficit, and no scientific proof you can. I find it interesting that many of the people who believe you cant gain muscle on a deficit, also seem to have an un-reasoned special category for the "elite athletes" saying they can do it too, when in fact if you read the studies these same try to use as proof, it tends to indicate keeping a higher body fat may be a key to gaining some muscle on a deficit, not magical "elite-ness". But really does it matter? Why argue something you dont know anyways? Science does not equal belief. A couple studies interpreted by laypeople to their own preferred conclusions do not make it "science" or a given. The truth is the jury is out, and there are plenty of anecdotal cases where it seems to happen.
Is it likely to happen? No. Is it optimal? No. = don't do it for muscle gains!
Are random new exercisers likely to gain muscle when they start weight training? We don't know for sure, but probably no to a little. Is it the +5lbs of muscle they think it is? No. Are they a lot better off keeping enthusiasm for their strength gains whether or not is muscle? YES! = keep it going!
Fact of the matter is you can gain strength while on a deficit, focus on this, steer someone to keep this going instead. Why try to nit-pick and deflate someone's enthusiasm so you can try to be a know it all and say its probably not muscle?
Especially since you would be flat out wrong, you can, people do, we just don't know the exact conditions that limit it, and its not good for gaining muscle and certainly NOT OPTIMAL.0 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »Yeah, no, there is no scientific proof that you cannot build muscle on a deficit, and no scientific proof you can. I find it interesting that many of the people who believe you cant gain muscle on a deficit, also seem to have an un-reasoned special category for the "elite athletes" saying they can do it too, when in fact if you read the studies these same try to use as proof, it tends to indicate keeping a higher body fat may be a key to gaining some muscle on a deficit, not magical "elite-ness". But really does it matter? Why argue something you dont know anyways? Science does not equal belief. A couple studies interpreted by laypeople to their own preferred conclusions do not make it "science" or a given. The truth is the jury is out, and there are plenty of anecdotal cases where it seems to happen.
Is it likely to happen? No. Is it optimal? No. = don't do it for muscle gains!
Are random new exercisers likely to gain muscle when they start weight training? We don't know for sure, but probably no to a little. Is it the +5lbs of muscle they think it is? No. Are they a lot better off keeping enthusiasm for their strength gains whether or not is muscle? YES! = keep it going!
Fact of the matter is you can gain strength while on a deficit, focus on this, steer someone to keep this going instead. Why try to nit-pick and deflate someone's enthusiasm so you can try to be a know it all and say its probably not muscle?
Especially since you would be flat out wrong, you can, people do, we just don't know the exact conditions that limit it, and its not good for gaining muscle and certainly NOT OPTIMAL.
Basically it's usually someone not losing weight or maybe even gaining weight asking WTH is going on. In come the flood of responses saying, don't worry, your muscles are just getting bigger while losing fat - keep doing what you're doing, no changes. What's your preferred response here?
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Those are all different cases, so different responses, and yeah in the new person's case its tough with bad responses telling them its all muscle. But to tell them they cannot build any muscle gets the next response: well why am I even working out then and getting sore?? Plus, with the made up rules, they are in the newbie category after all, so newbie gainzz!! Right?
I'd say try to get them to focus on maintaining to gaining strength and fine-tuning their caloric intake and stop thinking about how much is actually muscle, its near impossible to tell anyways. Ask them to go pick up 5 1lb steaks and think about whether they really put that much muscle on somewhere for the 5lbs they gained in 2 weeks, and why aren't there more people bigger than Arnold if people can gain muscle that fast, after all in just 1 year you could gain 125lbs of muscle this way right?!?!? ...I think that usually people start to get the concept this way.
I just get tired of people pretending they know you cannot gain any muscle while on a deficit, "cause its rulez and science", when there are no such rules, and the jury is out on the science since there are studies showing both results, and case studies actually make it likely probable in certain cases.0 -
SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish wrote: »Those are all different cases, so different responses, and yeah in the new person's case its tough with bad responses telling them its all muscle. But to tell them they cannot build any muscle gets the next response: well why am I even working out then and getting sore?? Plus, with the made up rules, they are in the newbie category after all, so newbie gainzz!! Right?
I'd say try to get them to focus on maintaining to gaining strength and fine-tuning their caloric intake and stop thinking about how much is actually muscle, its near impossible to tell anyways. Ask them to go pick up 5 1lb steaks and think about whether they really put that much muscle on somewhere for the 5lbs they gained in 2 weeks, and why aren't there more people bigger than Arnold if people can gain muscle that fast, after all in just 1 year you could gain 125lbs of muscle this way right?!?!? ...I think that usually people start to get the concept this way.
I just get tired of people pretending they know you cannot gain any muscle while on a deficit, "cause its rulez and science", when there are no such rules, and the jury is out on the science since there are studies showing both results, and case studies actually make it likely probable in certain cases.
Show me this please, because after a very slow year of recomp, I must be doing it wrong.0 -
I needed to hear this, OP. People so often throw around this idea about building muscle when weight loss stalls that it took me a few long weeks of equal parts denial and wishful thinking before I looked closely at my weekly calories and realized I was basically eating at maintenance. That was the cold hard truth about why I wasn't losing and I was glad to discover it. The funny/sad thing about it is that I almost bought the "must be gaining muscle" idea even though I'm not lifting. I'm mostly running and doing the odd Jillian workout. Lol.
Yes, I know, must start lifting...
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Nope, it takes long than one day for your body to build muscleSo, in your opinion, while eating at a calorie deficit, regardless of the nutrient percentages, a non-beginner cannot gain muscle....
I'll be working with a powerlifting trainer later this week, perhaps I should not eat a deficit that day.
its not my opinion ..its backed up by studies as well and lyle mcdonald breaks it down pretty well here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
dont understand your point in the bolded part…
or is there one?
I think they're wanting to isolate the specific workout day and not eat at a deficit on that day in hopes of [continuing to] build muscle. Some people have expressed thoughts that you can build muscle in one day, cut the next...
Of course this is just my speculation
Yes. That was what I meant. Thanks, JaneiR36!
I am quite curious what my body is doing. If being in any calorie deficit truly makes muscle gain impossible, how will lifting heavy affect me? Today my PB of bench pressing was 145 (after 3x3 of 135), my deadlift was 225, and my 4x4 machine squats were at 340. I was hoping to keep pushing those weights up even as I strive to lose about 50 pounds of body fat.0 -
So when people get stronger while lifting in a deficit, what is that strength attributed to? Additional muscles?
Just asking...fmi.0 -
Going to lay this one out there, because lately it seems like I am seeing this one a lot and it makes my head hurt.
It usually goes a little something like this…
OP comes into thread and says they are not losing and are on a 1200 calorie diet and are doing 30 minutes a day of "exercise", which does not involve a lifting program where one progressively lifts heavier weights.
Posters come into the thread and say "oh, you are just gaining muscle"
Sigh, I am sorry but a 1200 calories diet and doing a 30 minute a day cardio based program that MAY have some resistance training built into it, you are not gaining muscle.
Can you build muscle in a calorie deficit? Yes, you can but it is usually limited to two populations…
1. The obese beginner that starts out and is doing weight training where they lift progressively heavier things.
2. High performance athletes.
For the 90% of the rest of us we are not going to build muscle in a deficit.
Building muscle is hard work, and the fact that some think that it will just magically appear on a 1200 to 1400 calorie diet drives me crazy.
1200 calorie diet trying to build muscle??? LOLOLOLOLOL damn hippies.... Anyway I agree with you completely. The only thing you're gonna do with your muscles while weightlifting and on a deficit is just maintain it so your body doesn't cannibalize both the muscle and fat while you lose weight.-1 -
Now I have a version of that fine Sir Mix a Lot classic running 'round my head.
"Muscle building at 1200?
MAYBE IF SHE'S 4'3"!"0 -
I am eating 2000-2400 per day. I may wear Birkenstocks, but I'm not a hippie.
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I am eating 2000-2400 per day. I may wear Birkenstocks, but I'm not a hippie.
LOL! I believe that people have already taken issue with his use of the word hippie in another thread.
I was hoping one of the more knowledgable people would answer you but to give you a quick answer - You can gain strength gain without gaining muscle. Strength training while on a deficit will also help maintain the muscle mass you currently have.0 -
Right now?! You want me to calm down now?! Ok....0
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The explanation that made most sense to me about gaining weight after starting a cardio regimen was that new exercise causes some inflammation, since you're not accustomed to that exercise. Inflammation = water retention = weight "gain." IMO most of the people who come to the forums panicked about gaining are secretly talking themselves out of the next week of workouts. The only sensible advice is to keep up with the exercise and healthy eating and wait more than 2 weeks for the result.
Edit: Aaand after re-reading the thread I see this has been said not once but twice. Oh well. I didn't gain weight after starting cardio so whatever.0 -
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