"Cheese is not meant for human consumption"
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janejellyroll wrote: »Brent2Bfit wrote: »I know there have been studies on Far East cultures, and Japanese specifically, that note their much lower level of dairy consumption (higher last several decades) and their better health than, say, Americans. I'm not sure of any specifics that actually tied these two together conclusively, though. Having said that, it's pretty obvious that most cheeses have a high fat and calorie content. Also having said that, I've always thought almost anything is okay in moderation. I love my cheese. Woooo.
Yes, the milk is naturally and foremost meant for the baby calf but mankind has selectively bred a milk monster in today's dairy cows. If you ever saw firsthand some of the problems these poor creatures go through due to being bred for a single purpose - you'd be shocked. We humans always go overboard with everything. I've seen farmers actually use come-alongs winches to pull out newborn calves due to some of the inherent birthing problems. I'm glad to see some of the old breeds being brought back, even if less prolific. I'm a rice milk or almond milk kind of guy - but I do love delicious cheese. Yum.
This is me as well. The treatment of the animals bothers me terribly. Not much I can do about it. I don't drink regular milk. Just switched to cashew milk instead of almond or soy milk, but I do still eat cheese.
You can refuse to give your money and support to those who engage in it. Those who engage in this behavior do it for our money. They require our support. We can't change the world, but we can change our own behavior.
*OR* you could support a local small farm that treats their animals humanely and with respect. Wouldn't that make more sense? Reward those who are doing it well and perhaps more will follow?
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janejellyroll wrote: »Brent2Bfit wrote: »I know there have been studies on Far East cultures, and Japanese specifically, that note their much lower level of dairy consumption (higher last several decades) and their better health than, say, Americans. I'm not sure of any specifics that actually tied these two together conclusively, though. Having said that, it's pretty obvious that most cheeses have a high fat and calorie content. Also having said that, I've always thought almost anything is okay in moderation. I love my cheese. Woooo.
Yes, the milk is naturally and foremost meant for the baby calf but mankind has selectively bred a milk monster in today's dairy cows. If you ever saw firsthand some of the problems these poor creatures go through due to being bred for a single purpose - you'd be shocked. We humans always go overboard with everything. I've seen farmers actually use come-alongs winches to pull out newborn calves due to some of the inherent birthing problems. I'm glad to see some of the old breeds being brought back, even if less prolific. I'm a rice milk or almond milk kind of guy - but I do love delicious cheese. Yum.
This is me as well. The treatment of the animals bothers me terribly. Not much I can do about it. I don't drink regular milk. Just switched to cashew milk instead of almond or soy milk, but I do still eat cheese.
You can refuse to give your money and support to those who engage in it. Those who engage in this behavior do it for our money. They require our support. We can't change the world, but we can change our own behavior.
*OR* you could support a local small farm that treats their animals humanely and with respect. Wouldn't that make more sense? Reward those who are doing it well and perhaps more will follow?
I don't know of any local small farms that don't separate cows from calves. I don't know of any that don't sell calves for meat (even if some are retained for dairy and breeding). I don't know of any farms that support cows with declining production for the duration of their lives instead of slaughtering them. There may be such farms somewhere in the world, but not in my area. And probably not in the areas of most people.
Other people may be comfortable supporting those actions and I'm not trying to derail this thread into a larger debate. I don't consider those actions compatible with humane treatment or respect, so I choose not to support them. If you consider those actions compatible with humane treatment and respect, you may choose to support them.0 -
I don't care. I'm eating it. I love it.
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Yup, Rwanda is a hot spot. The Tutsi people have drunk milk from their cattle (status symbol and source of life and health) for many generations. My son-in-law has prepared the traditional drink by souring milk first. A sensible precaution, considering refrigeration is a fairly modern accessory.
Is that your son-in-law? What kind of cattle are those? They make my family's longhorns look....sad.
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deluxmary2000 wrote: »Of course cheese is meant for human consumption. How else would you be able to eat a grilled cheese sandwich?
Or have the obligatory super bowl cheese ball?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kgB-WxyFJg 0 -
More about Rwandan cattle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankole-Watusi
That's a picture of a former King of Rwanda, so my son-in-law would be related (2nd or 3rd cousin, something like that).0 -
Brent2Bfit wrote: »I know there have been studies on Far East cultures, and Japanese specifically, that note their much lower level of dairy consumption (higher last several decades) and their better health than, say, Americans. I'm not sure of any specifics that actually tied these two together conclusively, though. Having said that, it's pretty obvious that most cheeses have a high fat and calorie content. Also having said that, I've always thought almost anything is okay in moderation. I love my cheese. Woooo.
Yes, the milk is naturally and foremost meant for the baby calf but mankind has selectively bred a milk monster in today's dairy cows. If you ever saw firsthand some of the problems these poor creatures go through due to being bred for a single purpose - you'd be shocked. We humans always go overboard with everything. I've seen farmers actually use come-alongs winches to pull out newborn calves due to some of the inherent birthing problems. I'm glad to see some of the old breeds being brought back, even if less prolific. I'm a rice milk or almond milk kind of guy - but I do love delicious cheese. Yum.
I grew up on a dairy farm....birthing problems are not a result of bad breeding (usually.) All females that give birth face risks associated with complications. Using a come-a-long on a cow is much safer for her and the calf than doing a c-section. I personally cannot birth my babies naturally because while the outside of my hip bones are wide the inner opening of my pelvis is too narrow to pass a baby (found this out after being in labor for 2 freaking days with my first baby) Is that a result of "bad breeding?" Nope. It's just an inherent risk of being a woman.
BTW...I love cheese....I love cheese so much!0 -
Taste outweighs morality at least 8 times out of 10.0
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I am sure there is more than taste going on. There's texture, and satiety.0
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Marianne802 wrote: »I suppose if you look at it this way - We are the only species on earth that continue to have milk/dairy after we are weened.
Do we need it? Probably not.
Do we want it? Hell yeh!!
If it's available, many species of animals will happily drink milk or eat cheese.
Cats, dogs, mice, rats, coyotes, racoons, ...
I mean, if a horse will drink a beer from a bottle or eat a duckling - and I've seen both happen without human encouragement - isn't it clear diets are pretty much down to availability, what seems tasty, and what will/won't kill you?
I have a dog who knows that he is getting milk after I am done milking my goat. Twice a day, rain or shine, he gets his milk and, if I seem as if I am forgetting it, he will try to block my way out of the gate. He's all grown up and doesn't need it, either. All of my dogs love their milk, cheese, and whey.KombuchaCat wrote: »There's a misconception, mostly put forth by the vegan community, that it's unnatural to consume the milk of other species. To my knowlege humans are the only species that does it however I have heard of zoo and other animal rescues crossing species to save animals, etc. However just because we are the only ones that routinely do it does not make it wrong. We have evolved to be true omnivores. I even have a problem with my fellow Paleo peeps saying our ancestors would not have drank other species milk...do you really think that if our hunter-gatherer ancesters killed a lactating animal for thier meat they would have just dumped out the milk? Nope...all part of eating nose to tail.
What most vegans won't tell you is that even animals we classify as herbivores aren't completely herbivorous. Horses and deer will eat eggs and even baby birds out of nests built on the ground. Most mammals, including herbivores, will eat the placenta of their offspring. Yes, it stimulates the production of milk, but they would not do so if they could not digest the placenta.Brent2Bfit wrote: »Yes, the milk is naturally and foremost meant for the baby calf but mankind has selectively bred a milk monster in today's dairy cows. If you ever saw firsthand some of the problems these poor creatures go through due to being bred for a single purpose - you'd be shocked. We humans always go overboard with everything. I've seen farmers actually use come-alongs winches to pull out newborn calves due to some of the inherent birthing problems. I'm glad to see some of the old breeds being brought back, even if less prolific. I'm a rice milk or almond milk kind of guy - but I do love delicious cheese. Yum.
Just curious, based on the relative size, weight, and strength of the cow and the human and assuming the farmer is not equipped to do a cesarean section, how do you propose to resolve the problem? Or do you just let the calf and/or cow die? Why are farmers supposed to refrain from using the equipment that would enable the to do their jobs considering, you know, pretty much everything we eat comes from one kind of farm or another and we live in a modern world?
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KameHameHaaaa wrote: »Someone just said this to me. I love hard cheese. But I also love a lot of things this person doesn't, as they avoid entire food groups including dairy. I also love research/studies. So... discuss.
Why is cheese meant or not meant for human consumption?
What studies are available that I can review on this topic?
Thanks.
I guess we have to discuss what is a meant for human consumption. Lets define this as a plant or an animal that can be eaten and will not make a human sick. Many studies have been done that show humans lack the enzymes to breakdown lactose. We drink mothers milk as babies and can digest it because we have more of this enzyme as infants. However over time most humans lose the ability to digest milk appropriately.
That said we need to talk about cheese. It is not a naturally occurring food. It has to be made, and was discovered by accident. You have to go back to nomadic times when humans transported milk in the stomach of an animal. The rennet in the stomach is what curdles milk into cheese. Had humans used a gourd we may have never discovered cheese. So is it meant for human consumption? Probably not, however we have adapted and have found we can eat it. Plus the fermentation process does help breakdown lactose so it should digest much easier than plain milk. In conclusion I think cheese is a great way to get the benefits of milk without the digestive issues.
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Cheese is actually too delicious for some people. That causes them to be angry and resentful, so they try and take it away from others.0
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herrspoons wrote: »MarziPanda95 wrote: »Docbanana2002 wrote: »Whether humans are capable of enjoying the taste... or capable of digesting it...or powerful enough over cows to steal it... is a different question from whether milk and milk products are MEANT for us. They are meant for the babies of the animals that produce them.
You could then argue that no food is MEANT for us. Those strawberries? They're there for birds and small mammals to eat, because they then poop out the seeds to make more strawberry plants. The wheat in that bread? Same thing, it's actually meant for small mammals. The yeast in bread? Not meant for us either, just something that wants to multiply. Seeds, like sunflower seeds? Their purpose is to fall to the ground to make more sunflowers. Even if you argue that eating fruit could be for us because we defecate too (though no longer onto the ground) seeds can't survive if we chew them, which we do for sunflower seeds and things like pomegranate.
I think that any food that we can eat that doesn't kill us can be meant for us.
See, that's the funny thing. Cheese is made from mammalian milk but requires the introduction of coagulating agents like rennet followed by a process of fermentation and separation. Some also have bacteria deliberately introduced to them. As such, it is made specifically for human consumption - it does not occur naturally and has no other purpose as such.
Now one could argue that, say, cow milk isn't meant for us, but - as you point out - neither is any other naturally occurring animal or plant that we use as a food source. Vegetables exist for pretty much the same reason that any other organism does - to propagate their genes. It's a shame vegetarians don't consider this when they slaughter them by their millions in mass agricultural farming.
Which is why the moral argument is dumb and why using cheese as an example of a food that isn't meant to us, which, given we have to intervene for it to exist at all, it clearly is, is really dumb.
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