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Organic...
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It is inevitable that the Tin Foil Hat brigade always comes.0
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And you have to first consider where the funding is coming from for the studies you are citing. Who is your source? I most often purchase my produce from farmers markets in my community and though I may pay more, I know what is going into my body and what isn't. That's important to me. If you want "governmental and scientific studies and documentation" making up your mind for you, then that's your prerogative.
Show me the money!
I see you've entered conspiracy theory land now. Good luck with that.0 -
"significantly better" by whose standards?
By objective standards. Try them, they're good.0 -
It is inevitable that the Tin Foil Hat brigade always comes.
I see you've entered conspiracy theory land now. Good luck with that.
No, I just prefer to grow my own food when I can and not trust big Pharma to cure all the chronic incurable conditions I had as a child that I've been able cure myself through diet alone. But since you've got all the "facts", I should probably follow you.
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I see you've entered conspiracy theory land now. Good luck with that.
The money's in organic. LOL.0 -
No, I just prefer to grow my own food when I can and not trust big Pharma to cure all the chronic incurable conditions I had as a child that I've been able cure myself through diet alone. But since you've got all the "facts", I should probably follow you.
You just contradicted yourself and proved my point for me. Thanks.
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To me, organic foods TASTE better. I had almost forgotten what oranges, peaches, raspberried, nectarines (etc.) REALLY tasted like until I ate organic ones a few years back. Also what I had forgotten about were FRUIT FLIES. When I bought non-organic foods for all the years I raised my kids (before organic came to the forefront) we didn't have fruit flies like I did when I was a kid.
Additionally, the taste of grass-fed meat is really different and takes me back to when I was a kid. I try to buy organic, as much as possible. I once saw a list that suggested buying organic for those foods you do not peel to eat. That is pretty much what I stick to...
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Curious how I contradicted myself. Also curious what point I proved of yours? That I'm a conspiracy theorist? You can label me as whatever you want. Thanks. 0
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I hardly think everyone posting on the site has "put [much] time and effort learning about both sides of the various issues of health and nutrition". That's a joke! Some people who post responses know next to nothing about nutrition, many come in with their own personal experiences to share and many already have their mind 100% made up on their position and spend all their time and energy to try and support it.
And you have to first consider where the funding is coming from for the studies you are citing. Who is your source? I most often purchase my produce from farmers markets in my community and though I may pay more, I know what is going into my body and what isn't. That's important to me. If you want "governmental and scientific studies and documentation" making up your mind for you, then that's your prerogative.
Show me the money!
lol wow, you completely dismiss my entire rational and thorough argument by challenging the idea that there are those of us who do research and have educated ourselves.
and yet you say "many already have their mind 100% made up on their position and spend all their time and energy to try and support it" when that is exactly what you are doing yourself.
and to your "show me the money" call, you do realize that the organic industry is a multi-billion dollar for-profit industry, just as much as "big ag" is, right? I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this.0 -
lol wow, you completely dismiss my entire rational and thorough argument by challenging the idea that there are those of us who do research and have educated ourselves.
and yet you say "many already have their mind 100% made up on their position and spend all their time and energy to try and support it" when that is exactly what you are doing yourself.
and to your "show me the money" call, you do realize that the organic industry is a multi-billion dollar for-profit industry, just as much as "big ag" is, right? I don't know how many times I have to keep saying this.[/quote]
No, I do not dismiss your rational. I found very interesting the list of "acceptable pesticides." I did look through the list and will refer back to it. And no, I did not know that any synthetic pesticides were allowed by those bearing the "organic label." Thanks to you, I will learn more about which ones are used by the companies we purchase some of our more processed foods from.
I know there are some who try to do "unbiased" research, but really, that's just an oxymoron. We are all biased. I certainly am.
Yes, organic is now a multi-billion dollar industry and I do not support companies that have been bought out by mega-corporations because as I understand it, when that occurs, "organic" doesn't mean much. I'm involved in a local co-op and most everything we buy is owned by small farming families, some of which I know. Organic used to mean something, but now a days you can buy "organic" food that is pretty much the same thing as "conventional". I won't argue that. But just because some of the mega-corporations have destroyed the organic name doesn't mean there still aren't small farming communities out there doing a lot of good and raising far superior produce/dairy/product.
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No, I do not dismiss your rational. I found very interesting the list of "acceptable pesticides." I did look through the list and will refer back to it. And no, I did not know that any synthetic pesticides were allowed by those bearing the "organic label." Thanks to you, I will learn more about which ones are used by the companies we purchase some of our more processed foods from.
I know there are some who try to do "unbiased" research, but really, that's just an oxymoron. We are all biased. I certainly am.
Yes, organic is now a multi-billion dollar industry and I do not support companies that have been bought out by mega-corporations because as I understand it, when that occurs, "organic" doesn't mean much. I'm involved in a local co-op and most everything we buy is owned by small farming families, some of which I know. Organic used to mean something, but now a days you can buy "organic" food that is pretty much the same thing as "conventional". I won't argue that. But just because some of the mega-corporations have destroyed the organic name doesn't mean there still aren't small farming communities out there doing a lot of good and raising far superior produce/dairy/product.
this post is a lot more reasonable than the somewhat insulting ones you threw out before
it sounds like you support local growers and co-ops now because you feel that the organic industry and corporate agricultural industry are just fighting the same battle with each other, all for money
and now organic is a completely different corporate beast, and as you said has nothing to do with the local producers you work with and support
there are some other people in this thread who posted in support of local produce, myself included
it is not going to end world hunger or anything like that, but it still a great way to get close to the earth and to your community and work towards self-sustainability at the community level0 -
this post is a lot more reasonable than the somewhat insulting ones you threw out before
it sounds like you support local growers and co-ops now because you feel that the organic industry and corporate agricultural industry are just fighting the same battle with each other, all for money
and now organic is a completely different corporate beast, and as you said has nothing to do with the local producers you work with and support
there are some other people in this thread who posted in support of local produce, myself included
it is not going to end world hunger or anything like that, but it still a great way to get close to the earth and to your community and work towards self-sustainability at the community level
Agreed.
3AAnn3 seems to have been talking about "home-grown" food rather than "organic" food.
I get great pleasure out of my little veggie garden. I haven't even used any pesticides on it for the last two seasons.
Or does snail bait count as pesticide?
"Pesticides" seems to be another buzzword. If it's "organic pesticides" it's "good", allegedly, while just "pesticides" are bad.
It would be nice if we were all on the same page.0 -
Absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably WRONG. I hate that lazy, illogical way of thinking. By that reasoning, if someone paid me $100 to say the sky is blue, I'm wrong when I say the sky is blue, but is someone paid me $100 to say the sky is blue, but I come out saying the sky is red, I'm suddenly right? NOOOOOO. That boils down the essence of demanding people look at funding sources. The worst thing is I get this kind of reasoning from people, or worse, claims I'm a shill (as if that proves anything, even if it were true), and then they tell me about their organic farm. That's the kind of reasoning of someone acting with an us versus them morality - a deep unabiding belief that their s****t don't stink so much that they don't even see the hypocrisy in working for organics, but trying to dismiss arguments and reasoning coming from someone based on funding.And you have to first consider where the funding is coming from for the studies you are citing. Who is your source? I most often purchase my produce from farmers markets in my community and though I may pay more, I know what is going into my body and what isn't. That's important to me. If you want "governmental and scientific studies and documentation" making up your mind for you, then that's your prerogative.
Show me the money!
What's more, I even know why people want to make this kind of argument. It is intellectually lazy, or more kindly and more properly, it is intellectually conservative of energy. People evolved higher level intelligence in the largest part to do one simple thing: figure out what other human beings are thinking. Our brains are incredibly adept at this, so much so that we over assign human reasoning and motives to natural forces that we've had to overcome superstitions about them. So saying follow the money is trying to rely on this powerful factor, and expecting to find truth - yes it is easy, but you're using the same primitive forces that drive thinking rain dances work, if you can just figure out what makes the rain spirits happy.0 -
The technical answer is, you can't get away from pesticides, the plants themselves all have some kind of pesticide in them. It is easy to think of plants as perfectly passive things waiting on humans. They're not just waiting around to be eaten.
Agreed.
3AAnn3 seems to have been talking about "home-grown" food rather than "organic" food.
I get great pleasure out of my little veggie garden. I haven't even used any pesticides on it for the last two seasons.
Or does snail bait count as pesticide?
"Pesticides" seems to be another buzzword. If it's "organic pesticides" it's "good", allegedly, while just "pesticides" are bad.
It would be nice if we were all on the same page.
We just never bother to test regular plants, the assumption being that conventional breeding methods won't produce a pesticide in the plant that hurts people. There was actually a case of that happening though - a breed of celery was breed so resistant to insects, it could create light activated chemical burns on the pickers hands.0 -
Although while this is all very entertaining. I put a lot of weight in food-related opinions from well-known scientists whose research in this area embodies a lifetime of work. 1. Weston Price was a bit of a pioneer on this topic, even if "organic" wasn't defined at the time. Although he wrote his book in the early 1900's, it's still a fascinating read on differences between large-scale food production and more local and, at the time of his writing, undefined "organic" methods. 2. Michael Pollan is a contemporary voice in this area and because of the polarization of the topic, it's easy to find 3. criticism of Pollan's work--also worth reading, and 4. chefs known for using lots of vegetables. So, basically: growers, dedicated researchers and consumers of the product (or produce I should say).
Who's opinion receives less weight? People who have never gardened and don't even eat vegetables. Those whom wouldn't know how to prepare kholrabi without "googling" it first.0 -
The technical answer is, you can't get away from pesticides, the plants themselves all have some kind of pesticide in them. It is easy to think of plants as perfectly passive things waiting on humans. They're not just waiting around to be eaten.
We just never bother to test regular plants, the assumption being that conventional breeding methods won't produce a pesticide in the plant that hurts people. There was actually a case of that happening though - a breed of celery was breed so resistant to insects, it could create light activated chemical burns on the pickers hands.
I think it is generally understood as added pesticides and not autologous chemistry - plus many plant defense systems are seen are yummy - most spices fall into this bill. The 'not so rare' plant chemistry that is harmful to humans is significant and shouldn't be pushed aside but there is a perceived and possibly different risk from, say, pinto beans grown in my back yard and DDT treated beans...
You shouldn't eat either raw - but the additional risk is clear with DDT. And the historical issue with organochlorines is still there.
And some regular plants are tested - we know very well how digitalis works - it is really just a plant defense system (and hijacked by some insects - never eat an Monarch butterfly!)
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »plus many plant defense systems are seen are yummy - most spices fall into this bill.
Habanero pizza is my favorite pesticide
Delicious!
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I can't let this thread die without this having been posted.
(Should have been on the first page.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlqk8oV1FVI 0 -
Ok, I feel like a judgemental a-hole. Looking at her before the video started, I assumed she was going to be spouting really bad organic woo, instead of semi-comical take downs of it.I can't let this thread die without this having been posted.
(Should have been on the first page.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlqk8oV1FVI
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Ok, I feel like a judgemental a-hole. Looking at her before the video started, I assumed she was going to be spouting really bad organic woo, instead of semi-comical take downs of it.
lul guess this means I gotta watch it nao0 -
Has anyone watched the videos of the organic food taste tests I posted on the previous page?
The second one where they feed organic food experts McDonalds and the experts believe it's organic is hilarious.0 -
it is indeed unfortunate
although logical because obviously they need to use SOMETHING to get rid of insects, bacteria, and such, as I'm sure you know
also, as @senecarr and I pointed out previously, the volume of organic pesticides and herbicides often has to be higher than synthetics because of the difference in efficacy between the two (among other factors, I'm sure)
not to mention organic practices (as I understand it) require fallow seasons because they are more harmful to the soil than modern agricultural ones
really your best bet if you actually want to limit your intake of pesticides/herbicides, man-made or otherwise, would be to grow your own produce or get locally-sourced stuff from small growers you know and trust
I agree. And I do.0 -
hmm I can see how you'd infer that from her post but she doesn't outright state it
either way it's a good summary of the idea that organic sucks
How so? It's completely ignorant of organic farming practices and not true. When an organic garden gets fungus, the crops aren't gone fo the year. There are natural ways to combat fungus.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
How so? It's completely ignorant of organic farming practices and not true. When an organic garden gets fungus, the crops aren't gone fo the year. There are natural ways to combat fungus.
yes, natural ways by using "organic" herbicides
I'm not saying everything she posted was accurate (or even near accurate), but it cut through a fair amount of the back and forth *kitten* in a nicely brief way0 -
Technically, if it is a fungus, it would be fungicide.
yes, natural ways by using "organic" herbicides
I'm not saying everything she posted was accurate (or even near accurate), but it cut through a fair amount of the back and forth *kitten* in a nicely brief way
Pesticide is the generic term for chemicals that get rid of unwanted stuff, fungicides, herbicides, and insecticides are the usual subcategories of such.
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yes, natural ways by using "organic" herbicides
I'm not saying everything she posted was accurate (or even near accurate), but it cut through a fair amount of the back and forth *kitten* in a nicely brief way
Brief and inaccurate. And it would an organic fungicide, not herbicide, but yes no matter if it was as simple as plain water, if it was used to kill fugus, it would by definition be a fungicide.0 -
Let's take a seasonal country like Canada. If my plants don't make it by a certain date, there's no use replanting. They'll never ripen in time for harvest. So in a case like that, season's over. An enterprising farmer would cash in his crop insurance.
My zucchini didn't sprout this year, so I "cheated" and got a starter plant from a greenhouse. There'd be no use planting seed again. It wouldn't fruit in time.0 -
What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Brief and inaccurate. And it would an organic fungicide, not herbicide, but yes no matter if it was as simple as plain water, if it was used to kill fugus, it would by definition be a fungicide.
my mistake
fungicide, herbicide, pesticide
the crux of all this is that organic farming uses just as many "chemicals" as modern agriculture (possibly more in volume, possibly less in number)
but you seem content to continue to argue this to your dying breath by going back and forth over semantics0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »What I can't wrap my head around is why anyone would be against organic gardening or think that organic food "sucks". I mean I totally get thinking it's not necessary, doesn't taste better, not more nutritious, but why the hate?
because it's more expensive and it's sold on a lie that it is healthier, safer, and more nutritious
just like body wraps and other woo
people on MFP don't like woo0
This discussion has been closed.
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