CI/CO vs Clean Eating
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jennifer_417 wrote: »IsaackGMOON wrote: »Thread is gonna go off in 3... 2... 1...
No, your weight would not suffer. Because losing weight and gaining boils down to calories in vs calories out. It doesn't come down to whether you eat 'clean'.- If you eat in a caloric deficit, you will lose weight
- If you eat in a caloric surplus, you will gain weight
I suppose to extend that answer -- what about body composition? Scale aside, would a clean CI/CO eater look fit and active while a non clean CI/CO eater look frumpy and heavier?
I know that every person is different, etc. ( eg, I am lactose intolerant and any dairy would make me appear frumpy!) but generally, are the affects of a cleaner eater obvious externally?
Nope. Body fat percentage has nothing at all to do with what types of food you eat, only how much.
Assuming you get enough protein of course.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »
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Most "non-religious" types know that the concept of clean eating as put out by the "fitness media" is a sham, and is only there to make you feel bad about yourself when you "cheat".
Despite this, there is little science backing up "clean eating" vs "non-clean" eating. There is no scientific definition of "clean eating", so there can be no definition of "dirty eating".
If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
However, if these people propose that it is better for CICO, and do not caveat their assertions, or back it up with science, well then, it is the Internet and I will argue
As an interesting aside of "clean" vs "dirty" eating as a workout recovery mean, it turns out there is no difference in performance or glycogen recovery.0 -
If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
These are my reasons, bolded being immediately relevant to me personally0 -
IN0
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If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
However, if these people propose that it is better for CICO, and do not caveat their assertions, or back it up with science, well then, it is the Internet and I will argue :)recovery[/url].
This makes no sense to me.
If it's more nutritious and makes it easier to stick a caloric deficit because it provides more satiety, how can it not be "better for CICO"?
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TrailBlazinMN wrote: »Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »The answer is no, no they will not.
If someone eats healthily all day long, meets their macro- and micro-nutrient goals for the day, and lives an active and healthy lifestyle, a bowl of ice cream or a couple of cookies at the end of the day is going to have zero effect on health or performance.
@Alyssa_Is_LosingIt -I think it's pretty awesome you know how food affects every single person in this world. By the way, not everyone can just have one bowl of ice cream or a couple of cookies. There is reason why some people need to eat "super clean", just like alcoholics can't have a sip and drug users can't just have one hit/line/etc.slideaway1 wrote: »On a personal level I agree with this. I physically feel different (usually the day after) between getting my Carb Source from something like a sweet potato (Complex Carb) and veg, to eating Pizza the night before. Some people might not be as sensitive to this though.
This. I agree that some people might not be as sensitive to this but I think those people are far and few. On the other hand, I have realized the higher quality of food someone eats, the more their body rejects lower quality foods. It's like their body doesn't want to tolerate lower quality foods and only wants the good stuff.
Can you please stop comparing food addiction to alcohol addiction? Unless you know any people who become homeless from a food addiction?
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kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
You will more likely not find stats on anonymous things like AA or OA. From someone who has been to AA and NA it does work from what I saw. I hated AA though. A bunch of horrors stories to stop people from drinking. Scared straight approach does not work for some.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
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If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
These are my reasons, bolded being immediately relevant to me personally
All of it is relevant to me and why I do it.
I think OP's question, rephrased, comes down to: does the nutritional content of my diet make a difference to my results, specifically success at recomposition and maintaining lean body mass. If so, I think the answer is yes, to some extent, probably. The reasons are that getting adequate protein (for sure) and adequate micronutrients (I would think) are probably going to result in more success at building/maintaining muscle and also may have an effect on how effectively she can pursue her exercise (although she also may be someone who is more successful at those things if she includes a certain amount of carbs, including the oft-defamed quick carbs in her diet).
However, none of this has to do with "eating clean" as usually defined. You can eat lots of fruits and veggies, lean meats, and complex carbs without eating clean and for some people it might even be easier to do so in some ways if you rely to some extent on foods often claimed as "unclean" (processed and convenience foods).
For example, some people might enjoy veggies more or be more apt to eat them (if they hate to cook) if they buy them precooked or even in a cheese sauce or some such. Years ago I liked to make those Vigo beans and rice packages and add veggies to that--easy, and IMO plenty healthy, but not "clean." Others may rely on protein bars or powders to reach some of their protein needs or go to Chipotle (there's a so-called "clean eater" poster around here who does that) or use smoked or tinned fish and various processed dairy products (like greek yogurt and cottage cheese). Personally I find prepackaged greens useful to have around for a quick salad, although I don't only eat those, and same with the occasional baby cut carrots and canned tomatoes, whole wheat pasta, etc.
(I don't think OP really meant to ask about eating "clean," though.)0 -
I left this post alone ALL weekend like a good boy! I said to myself, "This thing will be dead before I know it!!"....wrong.....
I see we've moved on from Sugar vs. Cocaine to Food Addiction vs. Alcohol Addiction....... seriously??????
Oh....so I don't derail......
CI > CO = Weight gain , CI < CO = weight loss , CI=CO = boring!!!! :-) (CI = any food you want to cram down your gullet!)
partial derail???? ......
@senecarr AA is founded on spirituality....... spirituality =/= religion.0 -
I left this post alone ALL weekend like a good boy! I said to myself, "This thing will be dead before I know it!!"....wrong.....
I see we've moved on from Sugar vs. Cocaine to Food Addiction vs. Alcohol Addiction....... seriously??????
Oh....so I don't derail......
CI > CO = Weight gain , CI < CO = weight loss , CI=CO = boring!!!! :-) (CI = any food you want to cram down your gullet!)
partial derail???? ......
@senecarr AA is founded on spirituality....... spirituality =/= religion.
So recomposition is boring to you?
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I left this post alone ALL weekend like a good boy! I said to myself, "This thing will be dead before I know it!!"....wrong.....
I see we've moved on from Sugar vs. Cocaine to Food Addiction vs. Alcohol Addiction....... seriously??????
Oh....so I don't derail......
CI > CO = Weight gain , CI < CO = weight loss , CI=CO = boring!!!! :-) (CI = any food you want to cram down your gullet!)
partial derail???? ......
@senecarr AA is founded on spirituality....... spirituality =/= religion.
You're arguing semantics with that. AA isn't evidence based is the main point of the argument. It is also religious enough that it violates the Religion clause of the first amendment to force prisoners to take AA.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »If anyone wants to argue that eating lots of fruits and vegetables, lean meats, and complex carbs is good for your, I will not argue. If these same people want to argue that such a diet contains more micro-nutrients, I will not argue. If these people want to argue that is increases satiety and is therefore easier to follow, I will not argue.
These are my reasons, bolded being immediately relevant to me personally
All of it is relevant to me and why I do it.
I think OP's question, rephrased, comes down to: does the nutritional content of my diet make a difference to my results, specifically success at recomposition and maintaining lean body mass. If so, I think the answer is yes, to some extent, probably. The reasons are that getting adequate protein (for sure) and adequate micronutrients (I would think) are probably going to result in more success at building/maintaining muscle and also may have an effect on how effectively she can pursue her exercise (although she also may be someone who is more successful at those things if she includes a certain amount of carbs, including the oft-defamed quick carbs in her diet).
However, none of this has to do with "eating clean" as usually defined. You can eat lots of fruits and veggies, lean meats, and complex carbs without eating clean and for some people it might even be easier to do so in some ways if you rely to some extent on foods often claimed as "unclean" (processed and convenience foods).
For example, some people might enjoy veggies more or be more apt to eat them (if they hate to cook) if they buy them precooked or even in a cheese sauce or some such. Years ago I liked to make those Vigo beans and rice packages and add veggies to that--easy, and IMO plenty healthy, but not "clean." Others may rely on protein bars or powders to reach some of their protein needs or go to Chipotle (there's a so-called "clean eater" poster around here who does that) or use smoked or tinned fish and various processed dairy products (like greek yogurt and cottage cheese). Personally I find prepackaged greens useful to have around for a quick salad, although I don't only eat those, and same with the occasional baby cut carrots and canned tomatoes, whole wheat pasta, etc.
(I don't think OP really meant to ask about eating "clean," though.)
I agree that most of the foods people call "clean" undergo some amount of processing. However, when people say they want to eat "clean" I think what most mean by it is just more veg, fruit, meat, complex carbs, etc. There are some outliers to that who have some funny ideas but there is a common-sense understanding of "clean food", just like there is of "junk food", and the reality is that eating more of the former than the latter is likely to lead to greater long-term success at weight loss and maintenance.
I feel like some of the arguments around this debate miss the usefulness of pragmatic rules of thumb. I'm not bothered if someone calls spinach in a bag clean vs processed, know what I mean? End result is that spinach has some helpful stuff in it . And if thinking about it as "clean" helps people make more health-serving choices, it's fine, as far as I'm concerned0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
that may be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread
you cannot determine the success of ANYTHING based on the results of a single individual
which is why I asked how effective they are
as in, overall success rate0 -
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yopeeps025 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
that may be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread
you cannot determine the success of ANYTHING based on the results of a single individual
which is why I asked how effective they are
as in, overall success rate
Let me be more clear. One the only way you would get a stat on the 12 step programs working is by the individual saying that it has work. What is the success we talking about? Lets just assume it is true alcoholism to no drinking. That rarely happens. Also not every person in AA is an alcoholic. I was one of those who was not an alcoholic. Alcohol treatment is a requirement at least in the state of MD with some alcoholic infractions (DUI is a must for alcohol treatment in MD). The places I went to almost requirement you go to some for on AA. I can tell you the amount of stories I have heard on relapse as to the ones who pick up more chips to show your sobriety.
Lets just say for my outpatient treatment the counselors told me to stop telling the group that I had a sober night at the bar. My program you were pissed tested for alcohol. I think it can be shown in your system for up to 72 hours if I remember. Then the what I felt were true alcoholics would put me aside and tell me how they felt I was correct to not associate myself as alcoholic.
Will there be a stat on AA and the success rate? I don't think this stat will ever exist.
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yopeeps025 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
that may be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread
you cannot determine the success of ANYTHING based on the results of a single individual
which is why I asked how effective they are
as in, overall success rate
Let me be more clear. One the only way you would get a stat on the 12 step programs working is by the individual saying that it has work. What is the success we talking about? Lets just assume it is true alcoholism to no drinking. That rarely happens. Also not every person in AA is an alcoholic. I was one of those who was not an alcoholic. Alcohol treatment is a requirement at least in the state of MD with some alcoholic infractions (DUI is a must for alcohol treatment in MD). The places I went to almost requirement you go to some for on AA. I can tell you the amount of stories I have heard on relapse as to the ones who pick up more chips to show your sobriety.
Lets just say for my outpatient treatment the counselors told me to stop telling the group that I had a sober night at the bar. My program you were pissed tested for alcohol. I think it can be shown in your system for up to 72 hours if I remember. Then the what I felt were true alcoholics would put me aside and tell me how they felt I was correct to not associate myself as alcoholic.
Will there be a stat on AA and the success rate? I don't think this stat will ever exist.
@Mr_Knight mentioned an epidemiological study on this
asked him for a source (and more info) but he didn't provide it yet because he hates us apparently0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »yopeeps025 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »I don't see why it would be controversial to suggest that everyone should learn moderation. Not only with food, but with everything.
Would you say this to alcoholics or people in 12 step programs for drugs or gambling?
what are the stats on the success rates of those programs?
I googled around for a bit but didn't find anything easily
if anyone has access to that info I'd be interested to know though
My point in bringing up 12 step programs was that the suggestion that people learn moderation for everything is irresponsible and unkind.
it's not really irresponsible and unkind if 12 step programs don't actually work
that's why I'm wondering just how effective they are
if they work then yes you are def right
This question of 12 step programs working depends on the individual.
that may be the dumbest thing I've read in this thread
you cannot determine the success of ANYTHING based on the results of a single individual
which is why I asked how effective they are
as in, overall success rate
Let me be more clear. One the only way you would get a stat on the 12 step programs working is by the individual saying that it has work. What is the success we talking about? Lets just assume it is true alcoholism to no drinking. That rarely happens. Also not every person in AA is an alcoholic. I was one of those who was not an alcoholic. Alcohol treatment is a requirement at least in the state of MD with some alcoholic infractions (DUI is a must for alcohol treatment in MD). The places I went to almost requirement you go to some for on AA. I can tell you the amount of stories I have heard on relapse as to the ones who pick up more chips to show your sobriety.
Lets just say for my outpatient treatment the counselors told me to stop telling the group that I had a sober night at the bar. My program you were pissed tested for alcohol. I think it can be shown in your system for up to 72 hours if I remember. Then the what I felt were true alcoholics would put me aside and tell me how they felt I was correct to not associate myself as alcoholic.
Will there be a stat on AA and the success rate? I don't think this stat will ever exist.
@Mr_Knight mentioned an epidemiological study on this
asked him for a source (and more info) but he didn't provide it yet because he hates us apparently
He needs to bring out that study because like I said at least in state of MD if you get a DUI you will more likely find yourself in AA. I am not sure about other states but I do know in New York they have stricter consequences than MD for DUI(s). Also Virginia has stricter consequences than MD. Does these stricter consequences help with the people who would then go into AA? I feel might have a better success rate for the 12 steps.
I was lucky to that my program let me go to NA which had people more my age to relate to. I found it very hard to relate to people whose sobriety were longer than my age. Like do you even remember your last drink.
My programs was weird though. I got the vibe that they would let you relapse and the consequence was you had to tell the group and go through the relapse prevention steps. Also it would more likely show on your piss test that you did relapse. If you didn't tell the group then the counselors had problems.
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