Bound to be controversial
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I guess I define healthy as free from disease illness and long term injury and minimising risks of these.
The last part is probably the reason I think obesity can't be healthy.
So smoking is unhealthy for example, you may not have any ill effects but it's linked to a whole swag of risks.
Is my definition wrong? Too broard?0 -
There's a lot of variables. I had a friend who was perfect in weight, athletics, muscle tone, eating, etc. who died from a rare cancer. I also know people who do nothing to but eat and are obese, yet have been around for years without having to go to the hospital.
Weight is only one part of health.
Consider along with it: genetics, physical activity, nutritional balance, heredity traits for disease, stress, rest, and mental state.
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I think it varies from person to person where the line is between healthy and unhealthy. When I was 10lb heavier I had plantar fasciitis. I lost those 10lb and it went away. I'm still at least 30lb overweight but it's not affecting my health in any way. For others it does.0
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Nah i think you are seeing things to black and white and there is a lot of shades of gray in it.
like for example ,Are u familiar with the term metabolically healthy obesity? The american society of endocrinologist have refer about it a lot
Normal bmi= healthy 100%? , as someone who works in a health enviroment you"ll be suprise how that doesnt always works that way.
Oh sorry i miss your/his point, must be my english limitation, carry on with the conversation, i"ll keep reading others opinionDeguelloTex wrote: »
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not what I am saying if that's what you think.
You can be unhealthy at any size.
My question is can you be healthy at any size. Mainly focused on the obesity side rather than thin side.0 -
This, for me. As a pharmacologist, I consider the body systems to be the indicator of health, not the way someone looks. A very slim person can have a fatty liver, although obesity raises the chances that someone will have a poor functioning liver, high blood pressure, high cholesterol etc. If a non-athletic obese (by BMI standards) person can prove their health with a clean blood panel, then fine, but I'm betting they're a very small proportion of the obese population. They're also probably very young, and any damage is of the 'yet to be done' variety'.allaboutthecake wrote: »Try to look at the body from the inside-out....what does the blood look like? Full of triglycerides? How hard does the heart have to work? Is there layers of fat suffocating the organs? Are all the organs functioning properly? Is the electrolytes and hormones all under control? Is there a medical professional telling you to do something different about your lifestyle?
I have joint problems caused by my weight, I'm only lucky that none of the very serious side effects of being overweight haven't materialised for me just yet. But that's why I'm losing weight. I skated through my 30's going from overweight to obese with relatively little actual medical issues. That doesn't mean I wasn't doing damage at the time. As we age, the body's natural defenses and ability to self-heal from everyday life reduce. Since I started my weight loss journey, I've come to the conclusion 'why make ageing any harder than it already is?'!
But 'healthy' clearly means different things to different people, and the more virulent HAES supporters will likely dismiss those with diagnosed medical conditions that are attributed to their weight as outliers, and continue to claim ignorance about their body systems and say they're 'healthy', until a blood test or similar proves them wrong!
BTW, I do consider BMI to be a flawed concept, and is a very blunt tool to measure something as variable as 'health'! But as a general indicator for population health, it works.
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Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?0 -
HAES is HorseHockey for those trying to rationalize their refusal to lose the weight they *need* to lose, right?0
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I haven't read the other comments, so I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but some people who are overweight have normal blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugar levels. Of course, they're still bound to have joint problems and put themselves at risk for stress fractures, but other than that, they are healthy. At the same time, there are those people who are at a normal BMI but have high blood pressure, etc. consistent with a fat person (a.k.a "skinny fat").0
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DeguelloTex wrote: »
That's not what I am saying if that's what you think.
You can be unhealthy at any size.
My question is can you be healthy at any size. Mainly focused on the obesity side rather than thin side.
Both sides can wreck your life.
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That's anti-vaxxer levels of derp right there.barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
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Depends. I think if you're 150 lbs over your "normal" weight, there really isn't any way on earth you're healthy. But if you're a little over and exercise regularly, sure you can be healthy. When I was in high school, I was considered overweight by about 25/30 lbs. BUT I was on the track team (shot put and discus), was a 2nd degree black belt teaching 4 martial arts classes a week, and ran regularly. I was toned and athletic, but still felt insanely fat in my size 14 jeans. Looking back as an adult there's no doubt in my mind I was healthy despite being overweight, and this has helped me set realistic expectations for my weight loss this time around.0
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if you have joint problems, you are NOT healthy! People do seem to downplay any body issues relating to the skeletal system. I wonder why that is?TimothyFish wrote: »I haven't read the other comments, so I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but some people who are overweight have normal blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugar levels. Of course, they're still bound to have joint problems and put themselves at risk for stress fractures, but other than that, they are healthy. At the same time, there are those people who are at a normal BMI but have high blood pressure, etc. consistent with a fat person (a.k.a "skinny fat").
Bones, tendons, cartilage and ligaments - damage to them can cause permanent, sometimes irreversible damage to our bodies. Why do we think it's OK to deal with the daily pain and discomfort of this kind of damage, but only consider ourselves unhealthy once we're out of breath hauling our damaged limbs up stairs, and talk about 'lung capacity'!
Is it because this system is also the 'property' of strong, fit athletes? I'm genuinely curious as to how people perceive skeletal system pain and problems.
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dizzieblondeuk wrote: »
if you have joint problems, you are NOT healthy! People do seem to downplay any body issues relating to the skeletal system. I wonder why that is?TimothyFish wrote: »I haven't read the other comments, so I'm sure someone has already mentioned this, but some people who are overweight have normal blood pressure, cholesterol, and blood sugar levels. Of course, they're still bound to have joint problems and put themselves at risk for stress fractures, but other than that, they are healthy. At the same time, there are those people who are at a normal BMI but have high blood pressure, etc. consistent with a fat person (a.k.a "skinny fat").
Bones, tendons, cartilage and ligaments - damage to them can cause permanent, sometimes irreversible damage to our bodies. Why do we think it's OK to deal with the daily pain and discomfort of this kind of damage, but only consider ourselves unhealthy once we're out of breath hauling our damaged limbs up stairs, and talk about 'lung capacity'! Is it because this system is also the 'property' of strong, fit athletes? I'm genuinely curious as to how people perceive skeletal system pain and problems.
The only time I notice joint pain is when I cease exercise. I have to disagree with joint problems while being overweight meaning you are still healthy.
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Ay ay ok im not too familiar with the HaES and dont fully support that card post above but this is so close to my heart, and all i can give my opinion base in my personal experience,i grew up surround it by doctors, i work all day next to doctors and it killls me the way i see everyday people with weight issues are treat, and many/some times they are not getting the same atention a normal weight person does.
Its like you name the reason why they go to the doctor, and many time they are not taken seriously and allways get the same answer/look ; loose weight , next patient please. seriously? Not all is over weight related it, do your job and help me the way you are suppose to and my god the average of people here in mfp are at least in their late 30's so yeah it takes time for people to change their life.
Ps: not a rant, but have witness very unfair over weight people being treat
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Ay ay ok im not too familiar with the HaES and dont fully support that card post above but this is so close to my heart, and all i can give my opinion base in my personal experience,i grew up surround it by doctors, i work all day next to doctors and it killls me the way i see everyday people with weight issues are treat, and many/some times they are not getting the same atention a normal weight person does.
Its like you name the reason why they go to the doctor, and many time they are not taken seriously and allways get the same answer/look ; loose weight , next patient please. seriously? Not all is over weight related it, do your job and help me the way you are suppose to and my god the average of people here in mfp are at least in their late 30's so yeah it takes time for people to change their life.
Ps: not a rant, but have witness very unfair over weight people being treat
So now you try to act smarter than doctors who have degrees? A lot of issues can happen from being overweight and a lot of issues go away once you get back into "healthy weight range".0 -
sapphire1166 wrote: »Depends. I think if you're 150 lbs over your "normal" weight, there really isn't any way on earth you're healthy. But if you're a little over and exercise regularly, sure you can be healthy. When I was in high school, I was considered overweight by about 25/30 lbs. BUT I was on the track team (shot put and discus), was a 2nd degree black belt teaching 4 martial arts classes a week, and ran regularly. I was toned and athletic, but still felt insanely fat in my size 14 jeans. Looking back as an adult there's no doubt in my mind I was healthy despite being overweight, and this has helped me set realistic expectations for my weight loss this time around.
I think the matters is ask our self is what is the definition of healthy. I see by your definition that i wasn't healthy in your book, but not so long ago i was 300 lbs/150 lbs over weight and i didn't have any medical health issues, likeeee nothing, blood test, hormones, metabolic panel perfect, joints working perfectly.etc
So being healthy to you is define by the actual health condition of a person or by the potentially risk a person have to develop some medical health weight issue in the future?
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There was a study I read just the other day out of Britain that found a significant number of obese people who got a clean bill of health at say 25 or 30 did not get that same result 10-15 years later (not 100% sure on those numbers, but you get the point.) So I think the takeaway is you can be HAES today, maybe, but not down the road. I always think of elder care facilities, or just my elderly relatives. How many of them are obese? I could count on one hand. I had a good friend die of sleep apnea at 29, all because of his weight.
And here's the deep, sad irony of HAES -- What if you're NOT healthy? Are you "doing it" wrong? Do you not get to be part of the club and accept yourself? I've heard nothing but deafening silence on that point.0 -
yopeeps025 wrote: »Ay ay ok im not too familiar with the HaES and dont fully support that card post above but this is so close to my heart, and all i can give my opinion base in my personal experience,i grew up surround it by doctors, i work all day next to doctors and it killls me the way i see everyday people with weight issues are treat, and many/some times they are not getting the same atention a normal weight person does.
Its like you name the reason why they go to the doctor, and many time they are not taken seriously and allways get the same answer/look ; loose weight , next patient please. seriously? Not all is over weight related it, do your job and help me the way you are suppose to and my god the average of people here in mfp are at least in their late 30's so yeah it takes time for people to change their life.
Ps: not a rant, but have witness very unfair over weight people being treat
So now you try to act smarter the doctors who have degrees? A lot of issues can happen from being overweight and a lot of issues go away once you get back into "healthy weight range".
Ohhhh 1) i dont try to act , i actually went to med school , did my 5 years and graduate so yes that actually qualifys me to write that sort of opinion cause i have the same degree than the "smarts people"
2) what is your point? I think i said not all issues are over weight related it, of course many health issues are going to improve once you loose weight0 -
barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I understand the reason for HAES concept, but the movement can cause a person put on blinders to what's around them. No matter how body confident/comfortable I am at my size, I can't lie to myself and think I am perfectly healthy.
At the same time there are many reasons to look at weight for reasons to diagnose health problems but there are some doctors that get fixated that a person's weight is the cause for all their problems. Sometimes other medical conditions get missed because the whole picture not all possibilities were looked at.
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barbecuesauce wrote: »Nearly every HAES proponent I've seen has been in their 20s. If you're in your 20s and have lousy blood test results, that's probably more the work of your lousy genes than your weight. Where are the 57-year-old HAES advocates?
But the doctor card thing HAES bloggers advocate kills me:
because there are times when the patient NEEDS to lose weight and when medical intervention would be completely inappropriate without weight loss. A person in their twenties can blow out their knees with excess weight. Should they be given new knees, which can last for up to 20 years (but might fail in 3-5, a major risk factor for early failure being excess weight)? What kind of doctor would operate on such a person?
I love how HAES claims to be evidence based, then eliminates key evidence points of weight, height, body mass.
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Ay ay ok im not too familiar with the HaES and dont fully support that card post above but this is so close to my heart, and all i can give my opinion base in my personal experience,i grew up surround it by doctors, i work all day next to doctors and it killls me the way i see everyday people with weight issues are treat, and many/some times they are not getting the same atention a normal weight person does.
Its like you name the reason why they go to the doctor, and many time they are not taken seriously and allways get the same answer/look ; loose weight , next patient please. seriously? Not all is over weight related it, do your job and help me the way you are suppose to and my god the average of people here in mfp are at least in their late 30's so yeah it takes time for people to change their life.
Ps: not a rant, but have witness very unfair over weight people being treat
If a chain smoker complains about breathing problems they'd get told to stop smoking too, why aren't doctors allowed to tell a person with weight related problems to lose weight?0 -
Ohhhh 1) i dont try to act , i actually went to med school , did my 5 years and graduate so yes that actually qualifys me to write that sort of opinion cause i have the same degree than the "smarts people"
I'm not buying it.barbecuesauce wrote: »
Physicians serve the role of health advocates. In Canada the accreditation body for specialty medical training is the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons and their model of residency training is summarized in the CanMEDS roles, one of which is "Health Advocate." As an advocate for health you are responsible for advising your patients to quit doing harmful things - wear their seatbelt when driving, wear a helmet while cycling, stop smoking or drinking to excess and, yes, lose some weight if obese.
It is actually my JOB as a physician to encourage obese people to lose weight. Studies on smoking cessation prove beyond a doubt that a physician advising someone to quit smoking increases their likelihood of actually doing it. I've no reason to think that obesity is any different.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Ay ay ok im not too familiar with the HaES and dont fully support that card post above but this is so close to my heart, and all i can give my opinion base in my personal experience,i grew up surround it by doctors, i work all day next to doctors and it killls me the way i see everyday people with weight issues are treat, and many/some times they are not getting the same atention a normal weight person does.
Its like you name the reason why they go to the doctor, and many time they are not taken seriously and allways get the same answer/look ; loose weight , next patient please. seriously? Not all is over weight related it, do your job and help me the way you are suppose to and my god the average of people here in mfp are at least in their late 30's so yeah it takes time for people to change their life.
Ps: not a rant, but have witness very unfair over weight people being treat
If a chain smoker complains about breathing problems they'd get told to stop smoking too, why aren't doctors allowed to tell a person with weight related problems to lose weight?
I read my post twice to try to see where you did u get the idead that i somehow implied that doctors shouldn't be allowed to tell a person to lose weight.. in case that's what you pick from my post. No, doctors should have every right to be concerned about their patients weight related problem and advise them about it.
I think a poster before (@dariasen) explain my point better0 -
sapphire1166 wrote: »Depends. I think if you're 150 lbs over your "normal" weight, there really isn't any way on earth you're healthy. But if you're a little over and exercise regularly, sure you can be healthy. When I was in high school, I was considered overweight by about 25/30 lbs. BUT I was on the track team (shot put and discus), was a 2nd degree black belt teaching 4 martial arts classes a week, and ran regularly. I was toned and athletic, but still felt insanely fat in my size 14 jeans. Looking back as an adult there's no doubt in my mind I was healthy despite being overweight, and this has helped me set realistic expectations for my weight loss this time around.
I think the matters is ask our self is what is the definition of healthy. I see by your definition that i wasn't healthy in your book, but not so long ago i was 300 lbs/150 lbs over weight and i didn't have any medical health issues, likeeee nothing, blood test, hormones, metabolic panel perfect, joints working perfectly.etc
So being healthy to you is define by the actual health condition of a person or by the potentially risk a person have to develop some medical health weight issue in the future?
I agree that there are very different definitions of "healthy". When I was 100 lbs overweight I didn't have any heart, blood pressure, joint, etc issues at all. On paper, other than my weight, I was "healthy". But I couldn't walk up 3 flights of stairs without being winded. I couldn't get up off the floor without using every limb of my body and holding on to something. I didn't have the energy to throw my kid up in the air and play for more than a minute at a time. So I considered myself unhealthy despite what blood tests showed.0 -
You will never be as healthy fat as you can be thin.
But, even if you are fat, if you drink in moderation, don't smoke, eat vegetables regularly, and exercise regularly, your risk of premature death is on par with non-fat people.
Even if you just do 3 of those 4 things your risk declines dramatically.
So, while you may never be as healthy as a thin person while fat, you can be healthy enough that your risk of premature death is on par with someone who is thin.0 -
It would be better if the message was that you can pursue health at any size.
Encouraging chronically obese people to care about their bodies regardless of the number on the scale can't be a bad thing. It would be great if the movement encouraged healthy nutrient rich diets with physical activity and self care. Surely the scale would follow for the majority of people, even if the scale wasn't the focus.
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IMHO: the HAES argument is that someone can be obese and healthy. While this may be true *at this point in time,* it's statistically highly unlikely that a person who is obese will remain healthy.
We don't call someone who is a smoker healthy just because they don't have black lungs yet. While I advocate self-worth and acceptance of all people, I cannot get behind a movement that willingly misleads people into acting against their own best interests.
If the movement is all about loving your body - I agree. Love it so much that you do the absolute best to care for it.
*steps off soap box*0 -
I guess healthy is a bit to subjective.
For one it could be running a half marathon and for another it could be not being in hospital.
On the same lines as this.....
People can be fit at any size. BUT, fit is just one component of being healthy as far as I'm concerned. There are lots of health issues associated with a high body fat percentage.0
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