Keto--what are your thoughts?
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_Terrapin_ wrote: »And Dr Phinney has been quoted repeatedly when someone who consumes higher then 50 grams of carbs is out nutritional ketosis and it takes a minimum of 7 to 14 days to recover. He exercises regularly and has been in nutritional ketosis for 10 plus years. It seems many who think they understand the diet and the needed grams of carbs do not understand the parameters.
If he said that he's wrong. All that's necessary for ketosis is the absence of glucose and depleted liver glycogen. It's normal to go in and out of ketosis; it's certainly not an ordeal you need to recover from. The liver can only hold a limited amount of glycogen -- you would die in the meantime if it took 7 to 14 days to enter ketosis.
"As most of you reading this know, if one restricts carbohydrate intake, typically to less than about 20-50 gm/day (dependent on timing and carbohydrate composition), and maintains modest but not high protein intake (because protein is gluconeogenic – i.e., protein in excess will be converted to glycogen by the liver), one can induce a state referred to as “nutritional ketosis”"
Ketosis – advantaged or misunderstood state? (Part I)
Peter Attia put together a series of blog posts on Ketosis if anyone is interested the science.
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kplacko0919 wrote: »When doing keto, you do not count calories. You obviously don't want to go crazy and eat thousands of calories, but by counting carbs, fat, and protein, it works itself out for the most part.
Who told you that?! CICO still applies. Keto is not magic - energy in still needs to be less than calories expelled to lose weight, no matter what your macros look like!
The misconception that calories dont need to be counted on keto likely comes from the satiating potential of ketones, which causes many to feel fuller sooner, but this is dependant on how in tune you are with your hunger signals - Many of us who have struggled with weight-gain may find their ability to listen to the signal which tells us we have eaten enoug are somewhat broken. Also, as fat makes up the highest proportion of your calories on a keto diet and fat is extremely energy heavy - 9 calories per gram of fat as opposed to 4 calories per gram of carbs or protein), it is easy for calories to creep up quickly with these foods even with small portions. Therefor it is sensible to count calories as you would for any woe if your goals are weight-loss.
Those who have a lot of weight to lose, or have just started on the keto diet, may find they can lose weight w/o calorie counting, however the closer you get to your goal weight and after being keto for a while, counting your calories and carbs will be your best bet.
For me, Keto just feels right - like the way we were meant to eat. My body works best in keto. After 3 months of strict keto, calorie-restriction and IFing with heavy lifting 5-6x a week, and losing 30lbs of almost pure fat, i started implementing refeeds 1x a week to refill muscle glycogen for the week ahead's workouts and to raise Leptin hormone. Im finding this all extremely effective for fat-loss & muscle-gain (ie body recomposition). My physique is on its way to almost amazonian, mostly thanks to lifting in keto.
My mood, energy, memory & mental clarity are all improved - in fact, i feel a little more intelligent in ketosis lol, as i can think so much more clearly. You cant beat that!
IFing (ie. Intermittent Fasting) is so easy in keto - they go hand in hand. Another tool you can add to your weight-loss efforts with awesome results (not just fat loss.. a truckload of health benefits come from IFing, including longevity.. you cant get a better 'side-effect' to a weight-loss diet than a longer life!). I do 16/8 IFing, which is fasting for 16 hrs with an 8 hour eating window (for me that's a protein shake at 10pm after my late workout & just before bed, then fast all night during sleep hours, fast through breakfast, fast through lunch, and then i can eat if im hungry from 2pm til 10pm again, and then repeat each day. If i have a hungry day, breaking my fast at 2pm means i just miss breakfast and get a slightly late lunch. Often i just fast through til dinner though (6pm) b/c i dont feel the need to eat: I have 1 big, gorgeous keto meal (plus keto dessert if i feel like it!) then i'll workout around 8pm, take my protein shake (sometimes with double cream! Mmmmm!) straight afterwards (9.30-10pm) and then to bed, and IF again until dinner the next day.... So most days my IF looks more like 20/4. And the best thing is usually i dont even feel hungry during my fasts - i could easily go longer but my DH likes me to eat a proper family dinner (keto) with him and our son, so i do it to keep the peace & encourage my boy to eat.
When i ate more carbs i couldnt miss breakfast without feeling weak, shaky, moody, cold and ravenous! Its definitely preferable to get yourself keto-adapted 1st before attempting IF, but not essential.
Hope this helped somewhat. Im always around if anyone has any Qs or need some help regards Keto and/or IF. I have almost every book going on these topics and have researched heavily this past 6 months.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »mrsroddy1228 wrote: »who has done keto and what are your thoughts on it??
@mrsroddy1228 I have been in nutritional ketosis for 11 months now. I did it for pain manage and it worked because in 30 days my pain was down from an estimated 7-8 to 2-3. In 6 months my 40 years of IBS was cured. At 200 pounds I can lose about 3 pounds a month on 2600 calories and I do stop after each 10-15 pound loss and maintain on 3000 calories to let the body/mind adjust to my new lower weight.
Keto did not start out well for me because my cravings for carbs was stronger than my will to live but once I left carbs cold turkey in two weeks the hellish withdrawal issues started fading very fast.
Keto will not be adopted or even understood by the masses. I had to get my will to live greater than my will to die before I could even break my carb addiction of 40 years.
There is a lot of helpful info on MFP as how others successfully do Keto long term. With the help of Google I have read a lot of research on the pros and cons of Keto eating lifestyle. Best of success with what ever plan you go with.
Apparently not, you're still here.0 -
@CoconuttyMummy
As its very difficult to lose on fat, how did you come to this determination? Did you dexa before and after?
Also, regarding IF, do you have any studies that support longer lifespan? Most of the studies on IF don't so much benefit outside of personal diet preference and a method that can help control calories.0 -
These were the first three articles I found on IF and longevity. There's not a not on humans yet (I'm guessing because the test subjects would outlive the researchers).
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v457/n7230/full/nature07583.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC156352/
http://openwritings.net/sites/default/files/excerpt/files/J. Nutr.-1946-Carlson-363-75.pdf0 -
This diet sounds soooooooo hard and not quick and convenient0
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This diet sounds soooooooo hard and not quick and convenient
Like any diet, I think it depends on how you approach it. My meals today were as easy as it gets:
-2 eggs, coffee with coconut cream and a protein powder
-another coffee
-leftover hamburger patty, a babybel cheese, a cucumber
-spinach and feta chicken sausage and broccoli in cheese sauce
-nuts and coconut for a snack
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stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The point is that in ketosis, there is no such thing as hunger or cravings. That's why in ketosis you don't need to count calories - you are going to eat less.
This is not true for everyone, that they eat less on keto. Some people also manage to maintain or gain on keto -- it's supposed to be a lifestyle, not a diet, after all.
I think keto works great for some people. Not everyone struggles with hunger (at least not physical hunger) or cravings, though, or wants their appetite to go away. And in that I've seen people fail on keto, it doesn't work for everyone.
I love fat and protein (and veggies cooked in fat), so I am pretty sure that after an adjustment period I could overeat on keto as easily as with any other eating style. I also believe that I feel better eating a more balanced diet with a good mix of less processed carbs (and some carb and fat based treats, sure), so that works for me.
I think people who enjoy keto should do what works for them and those who want to try it should. I only ever comment when people insist it works for everyone or that it's a superior approach in general or that it means that calories don't matter.
Off course you can gain on keto... Actually, I'm in bulk phase.
And I've lose the most part of my fat on a standard hypocaloric diet (14kg).
That's why I know how I felt during calories restriction during a high carb diet and during a high fat diet. It is quite simpler to limit food intake if you don't feel hungry.
Then there are other things to consider... But the point is simple: you cannot choose keto if you enjoy eating foods that are not compatible with it.
Any food is compatible with keto in the right quantity.
No not really, because of the strict upper limit on carbs, choosing to eat one thing that's higher in carbs would necessarily come at the detriment of stuff like veggies. Unless you're gonna call "half a slice of pizza and the rest of your day has to be entirely meat and fats so you're not over your carbs" compatible.
Most people can stay in ketosis somewhere in the range of under 50-100 grams depending on activity levels. Sedentary under 50 and higher for more active. The amount of a carb based 'treat' food needed for a fix is pretty small when you are not regularly eating starch and sugar in quantity. In the past I ate huge portions, so this is a noticeable change in my habits.
It is kind of alien to me how you are elevating vegetables nutritionally over fats and proteins. Fats an proteins are the essential macronutrients and contain all the micronutrients required. You can build a nutritional diet with minimal carbohydrates.
Citation needed on those.
Really?, why?
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kplacko0919 wrote: »No, I'm not better off counting calories. I've done that for years and it has done nothing for me I have lost 12 pounds in 2 weeks doing only carb fat and protein counting. It is not about the calories even though that's what's burnt into your brain. What works for one person isn't going to work for the other and calorie counting does not work for me. thanks though
At the risk of sounding mean, 12 pounds in 2 weeks would pretty much be water weight if you cut carbs low enough to get into ketosis. FAT loss is all about the calorie deficit, and if you're counting fat, protein, and carbs, you're still counting calories, that's essentially a semantic argument, like saying I can't run 3.1 miles, but have no problem running 5 kilometers. Same exact measurement, different unit.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The point is that in ketosis, there is no such thing as hunger or cravings. That's why in ketosis you don't need to count calories - you are going to eat less.
This is not true for everyone, that they eat less on keto. Some people also manage to maintain or gain on keto -- it's supposed to be a lifestyle, not a diet, after all.
I think keto works great for some people. Not everyone struggles with hunger (at least not physical hunger) or cravings, though, or wants their appetite to go away. And in that I've seen people fail on keto, it doesn't work for everyone.
I love fat and protein (and veggies cooked in fat), so I am pretty sure that after an adjustment period I could overeat on keto as easily as with any other eating style. I also believe that I feel better eating a more balanced diet with a good mix of less processed carbs (and some carb and fat based treats, sure), so that works for me.
I think people who enjoy keto should do what works for them and those who want to try it should. I only ever comment when people insist it works for everyone or that it's a superior approach in general or that it means that calories don't matter.
Off course you can gain on keto... Actually, I'm in bulk phase.
And I've lose the most part of my fat on a standard hypocaloric diet (14kg).
That's why I know how I felt during calories restriction during a high carb diet and during a high fat diet. It is quite simpler to limit food intake if you don't feel hungry.
Then there are other things to consider... But the point is simple: you cannot choose keto if you enjoy eating foods that are not compatible with it.
Any food is compatible with keto in the right quantity.
No not really, because of the strict upper limit on carbs, choosing to eat one thing that's higher in carbs would necessarily come at the detriment of stuff like veggies. Unless you're gonna call "half a slice of pizza and the rest of your day has to be entirely meat and fats so you're not over your carbs" compatible.
Most people can stay in ketosis somewhere in the range of under 50-100 grams depending on activity levels. Sedentary under 50 and higher for more active. The amount of a carb based 'treat' food needed for a fix is pretty small when you are not regularly eating starch and sugar in quantity. In the past I ate huge portions, so this is a noticeable change in my habits.
It is kind of alien to me how you are elevating vegetables nutritionally over fats and proteins. Fats an proteins are the essential macronutrients and contain all the micronutrients required. You can build a nutritional diet with minimal carbohydrates.
Citation needed on those.
Really?, why?
Those are bald assertions. Evidence is required if we're expected to believe them.
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Serious question here because I have not read much on keto diets. Do the fats really have to be the majority? Was looking at a couple sites and they have fats listed between 60-75% of total calories.
What would happen if the ratios of fats and proteins were equal? Or slightly favored towards protein?0 -
piperdown44 wrote: »Serious question here because I have not read much on keto diets. Do the fats really have to be the majority? Was looking at a couple sites and they have fats listed between 60-75% of total calories.
What would happen if the ratios of fats and proteins were equal? Or slightly favored towards protein?
From my [limited] understanding, it would throw you out of ketosis because the protein will be converted into glucose.
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stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »The point is that in ketosis, there is no such thing as hunger or cravings. That's why in ketosis you don't need to count calories - you are going to eat less.
This is not true for everyone, that they eat less on keto. Some people also manage to maintain or gain on keto -- it's supposed to be a lifestyle, not a diet, after all.
I think keto works great for some people. Not everyone struggles with hunger (at least not physical hunger) or cravings, though, or wants their appetite to go away. And in that I've seen people fail on keto, it doesn't work for everyone.
I love fat and protein (and veggies cooked in fat), so I am pretty sure that after an adjustment period I could overeat on keto as easily as with any other eating style. I also believe that I feel better eating a more balanced diet with a good mix of less processed carbs (and some carb and fat based treats, sure), so that works for me.
I think people who enjoy keto should do what works for them and those who want to try it should. I only ever comment when people insist it works for everyone or that it's a superior approach in general or that it means that calories don't matter.
Off course you can gain on keto... Actually, I'm in bulk phase.
And I've lose the most part of my fat on a standard hypocaloric diet (14kg).
That's why I know how I felt during calories restriction during a high carb diet and during a high fat diet. It is quite simpler to limit food intake if you don't feel hungry.
Then there are other things to consider... But the point is simple: you cannot choose keto if you enjoy eating foods that are not compatible with it.
Any food is compatible with keto in the right quantity.
No not really, because of the strict upper limit on carbs, choosing to eat one thing that's higher in carbs would necessarily come at the detriment of stuff like veggies. Unless you're gonna call "half a slice of pizza and the rest of your day has to be entirely meat and fats so you're not over your carbs" compatible.
Most people can stay in ketosis somewhere in the range of under 50-100 grams depending on activity levels. Sedentary under 50 and higher for more active. The amount of a carb based 'treat' food needed for a fix is pretty small when you are not regularly eating starch and sugar in quantity. In the past I ate huge portions, so this is a noticeable change in my habits.
It is kind of alien to me how you are elevating vegetables nutritionally over fats and proteins. Fats an proteins are the essential macronutrients and contain all the micronutrients required. You can build a nutritional diet with minimal carbohydrates.
Citation needed on those.
OK, for the normal human carb restriction levels- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900714003323#tbl1
Very low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet (VLCKD)
•
Carbohydrate, 20–50 g/d or <10% of the 2000 kcal/d diet, whether or not ketosis occurs. Derived from levels of carbohydrate required to induce ketosis in most people.
For the active athlete, the best quick find - http://eatingacademy.com/sports-and-nutrition/ketones-carbohydrates-can-co-exist
What did this amount to?I
Fat – 351 gm, or 3,160 kcal of fat
Protein – 245 gm, or 980 kcal of protein
Carbohydrate – 321 gm, or 1,284 kcal of carbohydrate
(I used package information and Nutritionist Pro software to calculate this.)
Hence, on this day I consumed about 5,400 kcal in total at the following ratio:
Fat – 58%
Protein – 18%
Carbohydrate – 24%
By all conventional wisdom I should not have been in ketosis the next morning, right?
The following morning, my BHB level was 2.2 mM and blood glucose was 5.1 mM.0 -
Still looking for the micronutrient evidence?0
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This diet sounds soooooooo hard and not quick and convenient
If you mean "quick to empty adipocytes", it is the quicker diet I think. It is the only dietary approach that turns your body into a fat-burning machine (most part of enrgy will come from fat), forming ketones from fatty acids and using them instead of glucose (there remains cells that still need glucose, but all the muscolar works and up to 70% of brain energy can come from ketones).0 -
piperdown44 wrote: »Serious question here because I have not read much on keto diets. Do the fats really have to be the majority? Was looking at a couple sites and they have fats listed between 60-75% of total calories.
What would happen if the ratios of fats and proteins were equal? Or slightly favored towards protein?
Over 35% protein is generally regarded as excessive. Drastically reduce carbs and fat becomes the majority.
Protein is also anti-ketogenic to some extent, hence Phinney's "well formulated ketogenic diet" :
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Still looking for the micronutrient evidence?
posted a while back http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/23/7/948.full.pdf+html
(image also posted earlier)0 -
Still looking for the micronutrient evidence?
posted a while back http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/23/7/948.full.pdf+html
(image also posted earlier)
Not in ketosis, and from the text it becomes evident the subjects made an effort to eat just as much vegetables as before.very approximate assessment, however, may be made from the knowledge of the intake of carotene, since this is largely derived from leafy vegetables and these, in turn, are good sources of folic acid. The average carotene content of the low carbohydrate diet was almost precisely thee same as that of the normal diet in spite of the reduction of calories0 -
stevencloser wrote: »Still looking for the micronutrient evidence?
posted a while back http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/23/7/948.full.pdf+html
(image also posted earlier)
Not in ketosis, and from the text it becomes evident the subjects made an effort to eat just as much vegetables as before.very approximate assessment, however, may be made from the knowledge of the intake of carotene, since this is largely derived from leafy vegetables and these, in turn, are good sources of folic acid. The average carotene content of the low carbohydrate diet was almost precisely thee same as that of the normal diet in spite of the reduction of calories
Good pickup! This is why we're friends. 0
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