Medical Conditions Which Affect Weight: Separating Fact From Fiction
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You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
In the real world people do not trot off to the doc with a list of symptoms and get an accurate diagnosis, appropriate treatment and timely resolution - especially for endocrine problems.
Many people do not do that because they might not have access to affordable medical insurance coverage, and can not afford to do so. One hopes that people will begin to realize that, now that the ACA has at least made some form of coverage available for everyone, that more people will take the responsibility for their own health in their own hands, rather than sitting passively at home and blaming other things for their problems.0 -
I'm just going to throw this out there in hopes people stop getting in arguments and feeling hurt about it.
Start by detaching weight gain or saying it caused weight gain from any kind of moral judgement. Most of the people here have been overweight at some point. They aren't claiming they're better than you when they say what you did lead to you getting overweight. If, probably won't happen, but if, you can get past that, it can be a lot less personal and accusatory to talk about the whole thing. No one is saying that you chose those things in the moment meant you wanted to be overweight or that it made you a bad person. Okay?
I've been 100 pounds heavier than now, I wasn't a worse person when I was, nor am I better person now that I weigh less. I'm not going to claim different about anyone else when I say condition X didn't cause weight gain, it required a conscious choice to eat more. I'm not even going to say you consciously could know any given moment like that cause weight gain - it doesn't happen overnight.
Can we do that and start having a conversation about how the parts inter-relate to each other please?0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
I'm not clear what question you are saying I've left unanswered, but I've thoroughly explained why the medical circumstance mentioned circumvents CICO.
Let's start with two things. Firstly, how you think it's at all helpful to keep bringing up a life or death medical emergency in CICO threads. Secondly, you referred early to your current situation being one where CICO didn't work absolutely. Why is that?
You're being all vague. Again. And still going on as if something is wrong with CICO. What is your current situation that's making CICO wrong?
Whether it was a fatality situation or not, it proves the point that CICO is not absolute.
My current situation where CICO doesn't work is (up until recently) several plateaus and whooshes over a 9 month period of time. The longest plateau was 5 months and ended with an 8 lb. whoosh in just a few days. I'm not sure why that happened, but I do know that I was doing what everyone would suggest (weighing food, logging every calorie, etc.) and still was fluctuating on the scale around the same base weight until I had a sudden and permanent loss.
You and the plateaus. The last time I remember ever having this discussion, logging issues were abundant when it came to you.
Even if you were logging accurately and managing your condition well, there are factors involved with people who eat at deficit for long periods of time which effect their hormones. These are still accounted for in CICO -- EVEN IF THE PERSON TRYING TO BALANCE THE EQUATION DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THEM.
A different outcome than expected does NOT invalidate CICO, it simply speaks to the fact that you're not aware as an observer outside your body of all the factors playing into it at the moment.
Unless... wait a minute... are you truly confusing CICO with just the calories you consume and your exercise calories? Because I assure you, the energy balance equation is far more complex than that. It accounts for those hormonal factors, even if you can't.
No, I was accused of logging issues. That's because it is easy to explain if you just write it off as a logging issue. Yet that accusation is/was unfounded. Even if it was accurate (it isn't), then it still doesn't explain the 5 months of plateau and 8 lb. loss in a few days that I experienced.
I really am over this thread becoming about you. Please bring this back to what I said about CICO. I did explain to you how it could explain it.
There are hormonal effects on long term dieters.
CICO is absolute. The ability for you to get a handle on all that your body is factoring into it isn't. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
The topic of the thread is medical issues that effect weight loss. That is what I am discussing here.0 -
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
I think a reasonable discussion includes honest, affable exchange of information. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd appreciate the same, not blasting me with accusations.
I am not being egotistical in any way; I have years of medical experience and research experience to back up everything that I said. I do understand the problems that I am addressing. I'm sorry if you took some offense to my post- however, your feelings of offense don't negate the science behind everything that I said.
I thought that focusing on the assumptions would be productive also. This whole topic is a setup.
I've found that belief in ones own expertise is typically a danger to ones actual expertise.
I am not expressing a belief in my own expertise; I am quite confident in my experience and knowledge base, which are the building blocks of my expertise. Those are two very different things.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »My chosen (admittedly radical) treatment for T2 diabetes and obesity was bariatric surgery. The surgery took care of both conditions. T2 is greatly relieved by getting weight closer to normal range. So does one always treat the underlying condition first, or can it be helped by weight loss?
Weight loss is the first recommendation for high blood pressure, T2 diabetes and high cholesterol. People needing knee surgery are often asked to lose weight to reduce risk and improve recovery.
Isn't there a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario going on here?
Now, I believe people with metabolic conditions should check with their doctor before embarking on an elimination diet especially. Diabetics for instance are sensitive to the timing and types of foods they eat. Mess around with that too much and they can get very, very sick. I lost an uncle who went on a fad diet after a T2 diabetes diagnosis, from a stroke. He strayed too far from conventional advice and it killed him.
I always, always wonder about that chicken and egg thing in all of these discussions, because honestly? Simply losing weight has a positive impact on so many medical conditions (including IR!). A lot of the back and forth is silly.
I started out on this path for medical reasons myself. PsA has me wanting to get pressure off my joints. I wish my knees would get the message that I've lost 70 pounds and stop bothering me so much!
I'm the only other one who mentioned the chicken and egg, so I take it it was my thoughts on it that were silly.
I'm sorry, but me wondering a terrible lot about my weight connected to my glucose levels wouldn't do a bit of good, since I'm not overweight at all. It's not chicken and egg with me. You asked people to share their own stories.
It's not silly for me to not try to lose weight to help it and to not suspect that it was the year or two at a higher BMI that caused it for me. I won't gain weight now, certainly, but I don't have to give a flying fig about anything that causes my BG problems except what does cause them.
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You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
I think a reasonable discussion includes honest, affable exchange of information. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd appreciate the same, not blasting me with accusations.
I am not being egotistical in any way; I have years of medical experience and research experience to back up everything that I said. I do understand the problems that I am addressing. I'm sorry if you took some offense to my post- however, your feelings of offense don't negate the science behind everything that I said.
I'm not convinced that making the decision to eat more is necessarily conscious - for someone who isn't calorie counting or even aware of the their new lower TDEE it is relatively easy to be a couple of hundred cals over daily, satiety is tossed to the dogs, insulin resistance is deregulated, the body is stressed, etc.. Voila weight gain.
Being well informed about the principals sometimes doesn't lead to applying them well.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »"Staying conscious" is another point where, even with CICO, it is a tough choice for type 1 diabetics. Yesterday, I consumed more than my target calories because it got to the end of the day, I was doing fine for calories, and then had hypoglycemia. I had to consume more calories in the form of carbs to get my blood sugar back up... 3 times.
Today looks like it might be the same situation... my blood sugar was just 40 mg/dl, so I had to eat some carbs. After that, I'm down to 200 calories remaining for dinner, and signs point towards a recurrence of low blood sugar.
There was a particularly challenging day in April 2014 when I ate over 600g of carbs just to treat low BG and stay conscious. The lowest BG taken that day is unknown because my meter won't show anything below 20 mg/dl... and I spent 14 hours of getting it up to a safe level before watching it drop right away and repeating.
What's even worse is that I've started to notice I am getting used to low BG. I'm not totally hypo unaware yet, but I might be getting there. With a BG at 40 mg/dl last night right before bed and again this afternoon, I only felt a little bit low. I was probably in the 50's before I even recognized it.
Even in a case where CICO works, sometimes we must have more CI for medical reasons.
As I had said in previous posts to others - CICO works when the medical condition is under control. If your blood sugar is this low even with the amount of carbs you say you are consuming, then your condition is not under control, and you need to work more closely with your doctor to ensure that it is before you attempt to work on any form of weight loss.
The day when I ate over 600g of carbs to treat lows, I didn't take boluses during the 14 hours and had temp basals of 0% during part of that time too. Beyond that, there is no way to prevent lows aside from eating more carbs (although I did go for an easy walk in the beginning - 20-30 min., so actually I could have not exercised at all that day as well).
I don't know you're history @midwesterner85 , and please correct if I'm wrong... But aren't diabetics meant to keep their carbs on the lower spectrum? 600g of carbs is a massive amount.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »"Staying conscious" is another point where, even with CICO, it is a tough choice for type 1 diabetics. Yesterday, I consumed more than my target calories because it got to the end of the day, I was doing fine for calories, and then had hypoglycemia. I had to consume more calories in the form of carbs to get my blood sugar back up... 3 times.
Today looks like it might be the same situation... my blood sugar was just 40 mg/dl, so I had to eat some carbs. After that, I'm down to 200 calories remaining for dinner, and signs point towards a recurrence of low blood sugar.
There was a particularly challenging day in April 2014 when I ate over 600g of carbs just to treat low BG and stay conscious. The lowest BG taken that day is unknown because my meter won't show anything below 20 mg/dl... and I spent 14 hours of getting it up to a safe level before watching it drop right away and repeating.
What's even worse is that I've started to notice I am getting used to low BG. I'm not totally hypo unaware yet, but I might be getting there. With a BG at 40 mg/dl last night right before bed and again this afternoon, I only felt a little bit low. I was probably in the 50's before I even recognized it.
Even in a case where CICO works, sometimes we must have more CI for medical reasons.
As I had said in previous posts to others - CICO works when the medical condition is under control. If your blood sugar is this low even with the amount of carbs you say you are consuming, then your condition is not under control, and you need to work more closely with your doctor to ensure that it is before you attempt to work on any form of weight loss.
The day when I ate over 600g of carbs to treat lows, I didn't take boluses during the 14 hours and had temp basals of 0% during part of that time too. Beyond that, there is no way to prevent lows aside from eating more carbs (although I did go for an easy walk in the beginning - 20-30 min., so actually I could have not exercised at all that day as well).
If I'm remembering correctly, and I do believe I am, you at one time took boluses to compensate for less than ideal dietary intake for your condition. Are you still doing that?
I believe this is why you're reluctant to make your diary public when you bring up the topic of plateaus now. There was a time this wasn't the case, and the subject of your diet came up. You mentioned how you dealt with it. I remember you being called to task.
I would like to add here, if this is all still the case, using yourself as an exception to CICO in threads is REALLY disingenuous of you.
It's also disingenuous on this thread. You're leaving out pertinent information.0 -
Being hypo can make people dizzy. It's the low BP. Combine that with dieting and there is LOTS of dizziness.PeachyCarol wrote: »
It's more a choice to not pass out than it is a desire to eat, though. "Staying conscious" is kind of a requirement. I think everyone can agree on that. "Being able to go to work" is a requirement for many.PeachyCarol wrote: »You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
There's nothing you're saying here contradicting anything in this thread. That those symptoms lead to a choice to eat? Well, that's a choice. That's not a cause/effect relationship that's a direct result of simply having the condition.
I have no energy due to having psoriatic arthritis. I have learned to respond to that by not reaching for food, but by getting up and taking a walk. It's not a given that I HAVE to respond in a certain way to a lack of energy.
A lot of people gain weight as a result of their hypothyroidism. As soon as I got the pills, I began losing and have lost almost 100 pounds. It's the pills. I work hard. I have to work every bit as hard as anyone else. The pills just give me what healthy people had, anyway. But without those pills, I'd still be gaining instead of losing. My weight loss is all because I CAN lose now. I couldn't before.
Between the dizziness from eating 800-900 calories and the natural drop in BP from the lack of hormone, LOTS of dizziness. Tried to diet, got dizzy, ate. Failed many times.
People gain a lot of weight (and become very skinny) due to thyroid problems.
There is no reason to disbelieve it because it's true. If you don't want to believe it, okay, I cannot make you. But it's real and it happens.
I'm not going to have a big fight about it, but wanted to state it. If you don't want to believe it, that's cool. I just wanted to let you know.
I say this with respect, but I have a feeling that you are failing to make some of the finer distinctions here, and they are important ones.
You weren't dizzy because of your thyroid condition, you were dizzy because you were eating so little. You needed to eat because you were starving yourself. Why were you doing that?
The weight gain/loss comes down not to the thyroid problem itself, but to the caloric intake the person effects while having the thyroid problem. There's that fine line distinction I was talking about.
I have Hashimoto's disease. I get it. You and I take the same dose of synthroid.
I don't "disbelieve", I'm making distinctions you aren't making. You're fully blaming the disease itself. I'm saying it's a bit more complicated than that.
Last year (or early this, I don't remember), they took me off ALL my medicine. I protested about the Synthroid, but no. All of it. So, I became exhausted. I got horribly constipated and was advised on how to deal with that. No Synthroid. I started craving and eating more carbs. I knew I was going to gain weight. Then I got dizzy. I was so happy. I knew I'd get it back. Nobody ever called a doctor faster or was happier to report it! "I'm orthostatic! Can. I. have. my. Synthroid now?!" I asked it so triumphantly. He laughed and put me back on it. I pooped within hours and in two or three days was feeling better.
It was a nice reminder of how life goes for people who aren't medicated.
I was starving because I wanted to lose weight and 1000 calories didn't do the trick. That CO thing. It's a bummer when your body doesn't work properly.
I don't have Hashis. You could say I did, but what I had was so far beyond Hashis that it's not funny. I didn't receive a Hashi's diagnosis, though, technically I had an extreme case of it. My thyroid was trying to take over my body and it damn near succeeded.
I'm not blaming anything. I'm stating facts. Sometimes, people's weight gain (or loss) is a result of a physical issue.
I'm not sure why people want to refuse to believe that. People do gain and lose weight because they had thyroid issues...and other issues. It really does happen.
I totally grant that people also gain weight just because they eat too much!! No doubt! I even gained some of mine because I chose junk foods. I'll grant you that, too!
But physical issues absolutely have an effect on the body. If you refuse to believe that, you're just refusing to believe things that are true. Is it that you want to blame people? Is it a blame thing?
I'm not sure what your/my 200mcg of Synthroid has to do with anything, though? I don't get that.0 -
christinev297 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »"Staying conscious" is another point where, even with CICO, it is a tough choice for type 1 diabetics. Yesterday, I consumed more than my target calories because it got to the end of the day, I was doing fine for calories, and then had hypoglycemia. I had to consume more calories in the form of carbs to get my blood sugar back up... 3 times.
Today looks like it might be the same situation... my blood sugar was just 40 mg/dl, so I had to eat some carbs. After that, I'm down to 200 calories remaining for dinner, and signs point towards a recurrence of low blood sugar.
There was a particularly challenging day in April 2014 when I ate over 600g of carbs just to treat low BG and stay conscious. The lowest BG taken that day is unknown because my meter won't show anything below 20 mg/dl... and I spent 14 hours of getting it up to a safe level before watching it drop right away and repeating.
What's even worse is that I've started to notice I am getting used to low BG. I'm not totally hypo unaware yet, but I might be getting there. With a BG at 40 mg/dl last night right before bed and again this afternoon, I only felt a little bit low. I was probably in the 50's before I even recognized it.
Even in a case where CICO works, sometimes we must have more CI for medical reasons.
As I had said in previous posts to others - CICO works when the medical condition is under control. If your blood sugar is this low even with the amount of carbs you say you are consuming, then your condition is not under control, and you need to work more closely with your doctor to ensure that it is before you attempt to work on any form of weight loss.
The day when I ate over 600g of carbs to treat lows, I didn't take boluses during the 14 hours and had temp basals of 0% during part of that time too. Beyond that, there is no way to prevent lows aside from eating more carbs (although I did go for an easy walk in the beginning - 20-30 min., so actually I could have not exercised at all that day as well).
I don't know you're history @midwesterner85 , and please correct if I'm wrong... But aren't diabetics meant to keep their carbs on the lower spectrum? 600g of carbs is a massive amount.
In the example I've given, 600g of carbs is a massive amount... that was my point exactly. It was also required to treat hypoglycemia. That was my worst day of lows, and was not a result of over-correcting (as @mccindy72 implied) because I hadn't even taken any boluses during that time. I had to eat a massive amount of carbs just to treat low BG's that were not a result of over-correction. @mccindy72 wants to tell me that means my diabetes is uncontrolled. So when the lows are not a result of over-bolusing, how exactly could I have been better controlled?!
You are thinking of type 2's who are not taking insulin, who have high BG's because of a lot of carbs. That is a completely different situation than what I'm mentioning.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
I think a reasonable discussion includes honest, affable exchange of information. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd appreciate the same, not blasting me with accusations.
I am not being egotistical in any way; I have years of medical experience and research experience to back up everything that I said. I do understand the problems that I am addressing. I'm sorry if you took some offense to my post- however, your feelings of offense don't negate the science behind everything that I said.
I'm not convinced that making the decision to eat more is necessarily conscious - for someone who isn't calorie counting or even aware of the their new lower TDEE it is relatively easy to be a couple of hundred cals over daily, satiety is tossed to the dogs, insulin resistance is deregulated, the body is stressed, etc.. Voila weight gain.
Being well informed about the principals sometimes doesn't lead to applying them well.
For one thing, the scenario you point out - if a couple of hundred calories is going to bring insulin resistance into the picture and stress the body - then there is a medical condition which isn't control.
I said previously that weight loss can be achieved with a calorie deficit when any of possible medical conditions are under control. That's a very important distinction that keeps being missed in this thread.
as far as overeating being a conscious choice -you're taking that one line out of context. what I said was Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. And the point I was making there was that when symptoms like that are present, it's important to decide that it's time to call the doctor to find out why you're having those symptoms, rather than eating food to try to compensate for the symptoms. (as I was addressing an entire post)
I was applying the principles perfectly well, when we see them in context.0 -
People do gain and lose weight because they had thyroid issues...and other issues. It really does happen.
Indeed, because those medical issues cause people to overeat or undereat. For example, I could say that I gained weight because of depression. Actually I gained weight because I overate while self-medicating with food. The depression itself didn't cause magical weight gain. I think that's all anyone is saying. Whatever your issue, you have to identify what is happening to you in your specific circumstances in order to achieve weight loss. Is that incredibly difficult for some people? I'm quite sure it is.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »christinev297 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »"Staying conscious" is another point where, even with CICO, it is a tough choice for type 1 diabetics. Yesterday, I consumed more than my target calories because it got to the end of the day, I was doing fine for calories, and then had hypoglycemia. I had to consume more calories in the form of carbs to get my blood sugar back up... 3 times.
Today looks like it might be the same situation... my blood sugar was just 40 mg/dl, so I had to eat some carbs. After that, I'm down to 200 calories remaining for dinner, and signs point towards a recurrence of low blood sugar.
There was a particularly challenging day in April 2014 when I ate over 600g of carbs just to treat low BG and stay conscious. The lowest BG taken that day is unknown because my meter won't show anything below 20 mg/dl... and I spent 14 hours of getting it up to a safe level before watching it drop right away and repeating.
What's even worse is that I've started to notice I am getting used to low BG. I'm not totally hypo unaware yet, but I might be getting there. With a BG at 40 mg/dl last night right before bed and again this afternoon, I only felt a little bit low. I was probably in the 50's before I even recognized it.
Even in a case where CICO works, sometimes we must have more CI for medical reasons.
As I had said in previous posts to others - CICO works when the medical condition is under control. If your blood sugar is this low even with the amount of carbs you say you are consuming, then your condition is not under control, and you need to work more closely with your doctor to ensure that it is before you attempt to work on any form of weight loss.
The day when I ate over 600g of carbs to treat lows, I didn't take boluses during the 14 hours and had temp basals of 0% during part of that time too. Beyond that, there is no way to prevent lows aside from eating more carbs (although I did go for an easy walk in the beginning - 20-30 min., so actually I could have not exercised at all that day as well).
I don't know you're history @midwesterner85 , and please correct if I'm wrong... But aren't diabetics meant to keep their carbs on the lower spectrum? 600g of carbs is a massive amount.
In the example I've given, 600g of carbs is a massive amount... that was my point exactly. It was also required to treat hypoglycemia. That was my worst day of lows, and was not a result of over-correcting (as @mccindy72 implied) because I hadn't even taken any boluses during that time. I had to eat a massive amount of carbs just to treat low BG's that were not a result of over-correction. @mccindy72 wants to tell me that means my diabetes is uncontrolled. So when the lows are not a result of over-bolusing, how exactly could I have been better controlled?!
You are thinking of type 2's who are not taking insulin, who have high BG's because of a lot of carbs. That is a completely different situation than what I'm mentioning.
A current example... my BG was 40 mg/dl earlier. No IOB, so maybe my basal rates are high right now... I had the opposite situation yesterday, so that would make basal rates an unlikely culprit. I ate 12g of carbs to treat. Waited. Now my BG is 49 mg/dl. I just ate 12g more of carbs. If I keep this up, I'll be over my calories just sitting here getting low BG. This is how medical issues make it hard to lose weight.0 -
I understand that conditions don't directly affect significant weight gain, but a lot of conditions disrupt hormones and disrupt normal regulation of your body. As some of you have stated this can lead to increased appetite. It is not really fair in my opinion to say it is only about CICO. When your appetite is increased and you don't feel good unless you satisfy your appetite, then you have to admit that you are at a disadvantage and your quality of life is greatly diminished than compared to people who can maintain their weight without their body fighting against them.
I went from being skinny with normal eating habits to randomly developing endocrine problems which THEN led to my weight gain. I know the difference of having a normal appetite vs what happens with endocrine problems. It isn't just a "control your appetite" thing, I would literally feel not good if I didn't eat more.0 -
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
Seriously this post doesn't deserve five abuse flags.
Again and again though its the same people debating (arguing) the same thing over and over again. I don't mind a good debate a lot can be gained from them, however, a lot of what we are seeing is no longer good debating its just baiting, attacking other opinions and pedantic. A lot the science offered generally is biased to one's one opinion and more often than not there is always counter science, however, from both sides this too is attacked.
From someone who regularly lurks on these contentious topics, my opinion is that one of the things that brings the boards down..is what this thread and others like become...its not the topics, its those things I mentioned above...baiting, attacking etc. A lot of people happily stay away from threads like these knowing full well what the outcome is going to be, and any valid posts from others are generally overlooked in favour of further baiting etc of the regulars who participate in these type of threads.0 -
And sometimes, like in my case, it cannot be done. The physical issue just gets in the way and prevents weight loss.People do gain and lose weight because they had thyroid issues...and other issues. It really does happen.
Indeed, because those medical issues cause people to overeat or undereat. For example, I could say that I gained weight because of depression. Actually I gained weight because I overate while self-medicating with food. The depression itself didn't cause magical weight gain. I think that's all anyone is saying. Whatever your issue, you have to identify what is happening to you in your specific circumstances in order to achieve weight loss. Is that incredibly difficult for some people? I'm quite sure it is.
Could I have continued with my 800-900 calories and lost weight? Nope! I might've tried! Eventually, though, I'd have passed out and whacked my head on something. Then the doctors would've said, "You need to eat enough to not pass out." A person who didn't eat enough to remain conscious would be slapped in a psych ward and rightly so.
Some people really cannot lose weight.
As soon as I got the pills, I started losing. I continue to lose. 98 pounds and counting! Without the pills, I'd be eating to have some energy and I'd gain.
For me, aside from all the work and all the strategies and planning and all of that, it begins and ends with those pills. I can lose because I have them and wouldn't otherwise.
Thyroid issues are not the only things that make people gain and lose weight, though. Many things do.
I could list loads of detailed examples, including non-thyroid ones, but I think there is no point.
People who refuse to believe that physical issues can affect the body will continue to refuse to believe it against all evidence to the contrary. Believe it, don't, whatever. It still happens. People gain and lose weight because they have medical problems.
0 -
"As soon as I got the pills, I started losing."
Which is why people keep saying when your medical issues are under control.0 -
Being hypo can make people dizzy. It's the low BP. Combine that with dieting and there is LOTS of dizziness.PeachyCarol wrote: »
It's more a choice to not pass out than it is a desire to eat, though. "Staying conscious" is kind of a requirement. I think everyone can agree on that. "Being able to go to work" is a requirement for many.PeachyCarol wrote: »You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
There's nothing you're saying here contradicting anything in this thread. That those symptoms lead to a choice to eat? Well, that's a choice. That's not a cause/effect relationship that's a direct result of simply having the condition.
I have no energy due to having psoriatic arthritis. I have learned to respond to that by not reaching for food, but by getting up and taking a walk. It's not a given that I HAVE to respond in a certain way to a lack of energy.
A lot of people gain weight as a result of their hypothyroidism. As soon as I got the pills, I began losing and have lost almost 100 pounds. It's the pills. I work hard. I have to work every bit as hard as anyone else. The pills just give me what healthy people had, anyway. But without those pills, I'd still be gaining instead of losing. My weight loss is all because I CAN lose now. I couldn't before.
Between the dizziness from eating 800-900 calories and the natural drop in BP from the lack of hormone, LOTS of dizziness. Tried to diet, got dizzy, ate. Failed many times.
People gain a lot of weight (and become very skinny) due to thyroid problems.
There is no reason to disbelieve it because it's true. If you don't want to believe it, okay, I cannot make you. But it's real and it happens.
I'm not going to have a big fight about it, but wanted to state it. If you don't want to believe it, that's cool. I just wanted to let you know.
I say this with respect, but I have a feeling that you are failing to make some of the finer distinctions here, and they are important ones.
You weren't dizzy because of your thyroid condition, you were dizzy because you were eating so little. You needed to eat because you were starving yourself. Why were you doing that?
The weight gain/loss comes down not to the thyroid problem itself, but to the caloric intake the person effects while having the thyroid problem. There's that fine line distinction I was talking about.
I have Hashimoto's disease. I get it. You and I take the same dose of synthroid.
I don't "disbelieve", I'm making distinctions you aren't making. You're fully blaming the disease itself. I'm saying it's a bit more complicated than that.
Last year (or early this, I don't remember), they took me off ALL my medicine. I protested about the Synthroid, but no. All of it. So, I became exhausted. I got horribly constipated and was advised on how to deal with that. No Synthroid. I started craving and eating more carbs. I knew I was going to gain weight. Then I got dizzy. I was so happy. I knew I'd get it back. Nobody ever called a doctor faster or was happier to report it! "I'm orthostatic! Can. I. have. my. Synthroid now?!" I asked it so triumphantly. He laughed and put me back on it. I pooped within hours and in two or three days was feeling better.
It was a nice reminder of how life goes for people who aren't medicated.
I was starving because I wanted to lose weight and 1000 calories didn't do the trick. That CO thing. It's a bummer when your body doesn't work properly.
I don't have Hashis. You could say I did, but what I had was so far beyond Hashis that it's not funny. I didn't receive a Hashi's diagnosis, though, technically I had an extreme case of it. My thyroid was trying to take over my body and it damn near succeeded.
I'm not blaming anything. I'm stating facts. Sometimes, people's weight gain (or loss) is a result of a physical issue.
I'm not sure why people want to refuse to believe that. People do gain and lose weight because they had thyroid issues...and other issues. It really does happen.
I totally grant that people also gain weight just because they eat too much!! No doubt! I even gained some of mine because I chose junk foods. I'll grant you that, too!
But physical issues absolutely have an effect on the body. If you refuse to believe that, you're just refusing to believe things that are true. Is it that you want to blame people? Is it a blame thing?
I'm not sure what your/my 200mcg of Synthroid has to do with anything, though? I don't get that.
these points - I am a bit confused as to why you seem to think people are arguing against them. The point has been made multiple times that if medical conditions are uncontrolled, weight loss through the calorie deficit is much more difficult, and that those conditions can often affect weight in adverse ways.0 -
tiptoethruthetulips wrote: »
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
Seriously this post doesn't deserve five abuse flags.
Again and again though its the same people debating (arguing) the same thing over and over again. I don't mind a good debate a lot can be gained from them, however, a lot of what we are seeing is no longer good debating its just baiting, attacking other opinions and pedantic. A lot the science offered generally is biased to one's one opinion and more often than not there is always counter science, however, from both sides this too is attacked.
From someone who regularly lurks on these contentious topics, my opinion is that one of the things that brings the boards down..is what this thread and others like become...its not the topics, its those things I mentioned above...baiting, attacking etc. A lot of people happily stay away from threads like these knowing full well what the outcome is going to be, and any valid posts from others are generally overlooked in favour of further baiting etc of the regulars who participate in these type of threads.
Your fallacy is inflation of conflict.0
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