Medical Conditions Which Affect Weight: Separating Fact From Fiction
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PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
This is really the heart of the matter - every medical condition can have an effect on weight loss, if it is not under control. However, it is completely irresponsible for a person with a medical condition to attempt to begin any weight loss while having a medical condition that is out of control.
PCOS, Hashimoto's, Hypothyroidism, Type II Diabetes... the list goes on and on for the most common conditions we see in the forums that report they have that keep them from losing weight. However, if a person has any of these conditions, they should be seeing a medical professional regularly to ensure that the medical condition becomes and remains under control.
Once these conditions are effectively under control, the person is just as capable of weight loss by following a calorie deficit as any healthy person.
Right. I think the takeaway from this is that anyone can lose weight, no matter their condition. They might have to work at it a little harder to figure out their personal calorie level, it might be very slow for some. But everyone can do it.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
I'm not clear what question you are saying I've left unanswered, but I've thoroughly explained why the medical circumstance mentioned circumvents CICO.
Let's start with two things. Firstly, how you think it's at all helpful to keep bringing up a life or death medical emergency in CICO threads. Secondly, you referred early to your current situation being one where CICO didn't work absolutely. Why is that?
You're being all vague. Again. And still going on as if something is wrong with CICO. What is your current situation that's making CICO wrong?0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
This is really the heart of the matter - every medical condition can have an effect on weight loss, if it is not under control. However, it is completely irresponsible for a person with a medical condition to attempt to begin any weight loss while having a medical condition that is out of control.
PCOS, Hashimoto's, Hypothyroidism, Type II Diabetes... the list goes on and on for the most common conditions we see in the forums that report they have that keep them from losing weight. However, if a person has any of these conditions, they should be seeing a medical professional regularly to ensure that the medical condition becomes and remains under control.
Once these conditions are effectively under control, the person is just as capable of weight loss by following a calorie deficit as any healthy person.
That is the truth. ^
As i stated earlier in the thread (which seemingly no one noticed) was that even if you have one of those conditions uncontrolled (in my case undiagnosed) you can likely STILL lose weight by regulating calories in. That's the one part of the equation we CAN control.
Yes. The difficulty sometimes comes when some people are at the edges of the bell curve and need to be at too low a deficit to diet safely. The woman I mentioned earlier was consuming a fair amount of calories, so dropping 150 to lose due to a still not optimally functioning thyroid was fine for her. For someone already eating 1200, this wouldn't be a good solution.
There is a sad truth that not all doctors treat hypothyroidism properly. But yes, the majority of people can still lose weight, even with it not treated well. They just have to work harder at it.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
Ah, no. I see you didn't really read my post last night addressing your misinformed posting addressing this issue.
1) you are discussing something that happened back when you were a teenager, and you were in DKA. People in DKA experience hallucinations, disorientation, and periods of unconsciousness, so it's highly unlikely that you are remembering any of what happened clearly in any way, shape or form.
2) While people in DKA do experience high volumes of urine output, unless you continued to intake something (water, soda, something) eventually after you ran out of vomit and then bile (the dark stuff) you would only dry heave. It's not physically possible for your body to give you anything else to vomit out unless your stomach or esophagus ruputured and you were vomiting blood, and if that had happened, you most likely would have had surgery.
3) While it is true that the adipose cells do release fatty acids in a desperate attempt to provide an energy source for gluconeogenosis, it's only the fatty acids that are released. There isn't time for a complete breakdown of adipose tissue and fat loss. When this happens, the blood becomes incredibly acidic. Disrupting the acid/base balance of the blood causes the body to try to compensate by forcing the respiratory drive into high gear (hyperventilation) to blow off as much carbon dioxide as possible. (carbon dioxide is an acid in the blood) the respiratory muscles can't work that hard, tire out, and unless the person is in a hospital where a sodium bicarb drip can be given to compensate the acidity of the blood, the person will stop breathing and die.
4) As I said last night, if the body actually dumped that much fat into the blood in just a couple of days, the additional volume would be so great, the blood pressure would rise too high, and the risk of either stroke or aneurysm would be incredible.
5) Considering that the majority of the body is comprised of water, and that it doesn't take much loss to create dehydration at a dangerous level, if you lost that much weight in a few days and it was all water weight, you would have died of dehydration despite the best efforts of hospital staff to save you.
I did read your point last night and responded. In regards to these points:
1. I explained what happened, and have before and after weights from a week prior to entering DKA and several days after returning to a normal state. You are basically saying that I hallucinated before and after being in DKA... in other words, you are just calling me a liar.
2. I was drinking water, as explained earlier. I vomited some water as well as other substances in my stomach (bile).
3. As I explained in my response last night, acid levels were extremely high during that event. In fact, the dr. was surprised I didn't have a heart attack because of high acid levels.
4. Again, I addressed that last night.
5. I'm not saying I lost 50 lbs. of water weight in that time. I explained this last night and again today. Some of that weight was water, some was fat. Others who don't understand this are claiming that it was all water weight. Those people are wrong.
1. I certainly am not calling you a liar. People who are in medically emergent states don't have good recall after the event - that doesn't mean they are lying when they give their imperfect recall of the event, it just means they are wrong.
2. You wouldn't have had a heart attack from the high acid levels, you would have stopped breathing after going into respiratory distress, if they hadn't intubated you or given you a sodium bicarb drip in time to compensate for the acidity.
3. As I've explained, you coudn't have possibly lost more than a couple of pounds of fat in that week. You could have lost as much as 10-15 pounds of water weight in a week, but that's about it.
As a medical professional who has treated and cared for numerous people in DKA, some who have not survived, I'm sorry to say that you are incorrect in much of your information. I hope that others reading along are able to understand that I am not calling you a liar, but that I am only saying that a) your memories are distorted and incomplete, and b) any information you've been given or researched since then has been misinterpreted.
I kept the remaining (after returning from hospital) weight off for several months (almost a year), so I can't believe it was water weight. There are several academic journal articles that can be readily found that explain how fat loss occurs with DKA. My memories are supported by others who were there at the time, including an endocrinologist and other medical staff.
So, could you provide those sources?
My dad died in June (though we talked about it on occasion in the years since it happened), I'm not going to give my mom's or sibling's contact information, and the medical facility would not tell you anything anyway because of HIPPAA.
What the hell does that have to do with the several academic journal articles that are readily available?
ETA: Sorry for your loss, man.
I thought you meant the ones who were there at the time.
Here is a good place to start:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=DKA+fat+loss&as_sdt=1,23&as_sdtp=
Which one of those supports your statement?
*Sorry to continue the derailment.
Just a few that came up towards the top here. Citations in APA format (except italics) - these citations can be used to go directly to the academic journals, or find them in a repository such as Ebscohost, ERIC, Google Scholar, etc.
Bagdade, J. D., Porte Jr, D., & Bierman, E. L. (1967). Diabetic lipemia: a form of acquired fat-induced lipemia. New England Journal of Medicine, 276(8), 427-433.
**This source has a limitation in that it uses secondary research.
Lee, D. M., Hoffman, W. H., Carl, G. F., Khichi, M., & Cornwell, P. E. (2002). Lipid peroxidation and antioxidant vitamins prior to, during, and after correction of diabetic ketoacidosis. Journal of Diabetes and its Complications, 16(4), 294-300.
Wallace, J. I., Schwartz, R. S., LaCroix, A. Z., Uhlmann, R. F., & Pearlman, R. A. (1995). Involuntary weight loss in older outpatients: incidence and clinical significance. Journal of the American Geriatrics Society, 43(4), 329-337.
Your first article is far too old to have any validity in the current medical forum.
Your second article is discussing the practicality of using antioxidant vitamins in patients suffering DKA events to prevent cognitive loss due to the damage from the oxidation process of the release of fatty acids from adipose tissue.
Your third article is an overall review of veterans living independently and what could be causing their weight loss- diabetes is potentially listed as only one possiblity.0 -
RuNaRoUnDaFiEld wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »RuNaRoUnDaFiEld wrote: »My friends son has an awful condition called Prader willi syndrome. It is soul destroying to witness.
EDIT- What a great thread topic OP!
I read a really intense article about this syndrome last year (wish I could remember where). It really stuck with me, how difficult it is for families to deal with.
Prada willi is creul beyond belief, he will steal, attack, manipulate, do anything to get food. It still doesn't go against cico though as it is a compulsion to eat and eat until there is no food left.
Poor little guy. It sounds so horrible for him and his family.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »@midwesterner85 - This is now the 11th thread in which you're discussing DKA. Since it's so dangerous and has absolutely nothing to do with weight management, how about making this the last thread?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/search?adv=1&search=dka&title=&author=midwesterner85&cat=all&tags=&discussion_d=1&comment_c=1&group_group=1&within=1+day&date=
Most of those other threads were either specifically about diabetes (where DKA is relevant), and I didn't really go into detail. In some of those threads, it was in response to others who had already mentioned DKA (as in this thread). DKA is related to weight loss, and is relevant to individual conditions experienced by users in the threads where I've either brought it up or responded to it.
This thread is specifically about medical conditions / anomalies that affect weight. It directly is linked to the topic of this thread. In addition, another user brought up the topic and provided bad information. What I'm providing is accurate information about the topic, and I'm not encouraging anyone to do it. In fact, I'm explicitly encouraging people NOT to inentionally go into DKA.
I'm not going to stop mentioning it any more than other users on this site will stop mentioning CICO (which is not as exact as most users purport).
But this is a forum for an app dedicated to using CICO to meet weight goals. This isn't a DKA site.
It's a fitness site, and DKA is relevant everywhere I've brought it up or responded to a mention about it. Otherwise, the same logic could be used when mentioning PCOS or any number of other things related to weight.
DKA, which results in a loss of fluid is not relevant to a site where people are looking for meaningful, lasting fat loss.
You continually bringing up an emergency medical condition to "prove" CICO is wrong is spurious. It just proves that there are medical conditions that can impact the fluid levels in the body and that the human body carries a lot of fluid in it.
It is not meaningful to constantly interject "CICO doesn't always apply" into discussions based on your experience with fluid loss and dehydration, just as it's not meaningful for me to bring up my experience with celiac disease.
Again, it isn't just fluid. There is fat loss as well.
Ah, no. I see you didn't really read my post last night addressing your misinformed posting addressing this issue.
1) you are discussing something that happened back when you were a teenager, and you were in DKA. People in DKA experience hallucinations, disorientation, and periods of unconsciousness, so it's highly unlikely that you are remembering any of what happened clearly in any way, shape or form.
2) While people in DKA do experience high volumes of urine output, unless you continued to intake something (water, soda, something) eventually after you ran out of vomit and then bile (the dark stuff) you would only dry heave. It's not physically possible for your body to give you anything else to vomit out unless your stomach or esophagus ruputured and you were vomiting blood, and if that had happened, you most likely would have had surgery.
3) While it is true that the adipose cells do release fatty acids in a desperate attempt to provide an energy source for gluconeogenosis, it's only the fatty acids that are released. There isn't time for a complete breakdown of adipose tissue and fat loss. When this happens, the blood becomes incredibly acidic. Disrupting the acid/base balance of the blood causes the body to try to compensate by forcing the respiratory drive into high gear (hyperventilation) to blow off as much carbon dioxide as possible. (carbon dioxide is an acid in the blood) the respiratory muscles can't work that hard, tire out, and unless the person is in a hospital where a sodium bicarb drip can be given to compensate the acidity of the blood, the person will stop breathing and die.
4) As I said last night, if the body actually dumped that much fat into the blood in just a couple of days, the additional volume would be so great, the blood pressure would rise too high, and the risk of either stroke or aneurysm would be incredible.
5) Considering that the majority of the body is comprised of water, and that it doesn't take much loss to create dehydration at a dangerous level, if you lost that much weight in a few days and it was all water weight, you would have died of dehydration despite the best efforts of hospital staff to save you.
I did read your point last night and responded. In regards to these points:
1. I explained what happened, and have before and after weights from a week prior to entering DKA and several days after returning to a normal state. You are basically saying that I hallucinated before and after being in DKA... in other words, you are just calling me a liar.
2. I was drinking water, as explained earlier. I vomited some water as well as other substances in my stomach (bile).
3. As I explained in my response last night, acid levels were extremely high during that event. In fact, the dr. was surprised I didn't have a heart attack because of high acid levels.
4. Again, I addressed that last night.
5. I'm not saying I lost 50 lbs. of water weight in that time. I explained this last night and again today. Some of that weight was water, some was fat. Others who don't understand this are claiming that it was all water weight. Those people are wrong.
1. I certainly am not calling you a liar. People who are in medically emergent states don't have good recall after the event - that doesn't mean they are lying when they give their imperfect recall of the event, it just means they are wrong.
2. You wouldn't have had a heart attack from the high acid levels, you would have stopped breathing after going into respiratory distress, if they hadn't intubated you or given you a sodium bicarb drip in time to compensate for the acidity.
3. As I've explained, you coudn't have possibly lost more than a couple of pounds of fat in that week. You could have lost as much as 10-15 pounds of water weight in a week, but that's about it.
As a medical professional who has treated and cared for numerous people in DKA, some who have not survived, I'm sorry to say that you are incorrect in much of your information. I hope that others reading along are able to understand that I am not calling you a liar, but that I am only saying that a) your memories are distorted and incomplete, and b) any information you've been given or researched since then has been misinterpreted.
I kept the remaining (after returning from hospital) weight off for several months (almost a year), so I can't believe it was water weight. There are several academic journal articles that can be readily found that explain how fat loss occurs with DKA. My memories are supported by others who were there at the time, including an endocrinologist and other medical staff.
So, could you provide those sources?
My dad died in June (though we talked about it on occasion in the years since it happened), I'm not going to give my mom's or sibling's contact information, and the medical facility would not tell you anything anyway because of HIPPAA.
What the hell does that have to do with the several academic journal articles that are readily available?
ETA: Sorry for your loss, man.
I thought you meant the ones who were there at the time.
Here is a good place to start:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=DKA+fat+loss&as_sdt=1,23&as_sdtp=
Which one of those supports your statement?
*Sorry to continue the derailment.
Just a few that came up towards the top here. Citations in APA format (except italics) - these citations can be used to go directly to the academic journals, or find them in a repository such as Ebscohost, ERIC, Google Scholar, etc.
Bagdade, J. D., Porte Jr, D., & Bierman, E. L. (1967). Diabetic lipemia: a form of acquired fat-induced lipemia. New England Journal of Medicine, 276(8), 427-433.
**This source has a limitation in that it uses secondary research.
Lee, D. M., Hoffman, W. H., Carl, G. F., Khichi, M., & Cornwell, P. E. (2002). Lipid peroxidation and antioxidant vitamins prior to, during, and after correction of diabetic ketoacidosis. Journal of Diabetes and its Complications, 16(4), 294-300.
Wallace, J. I., Schwartz, R. S., LaCroix, A. Z., Uhlmann, R. F., & Pearlman, R. A. (1995). Involuntary weight loss in older outpatients: incidence and clinical significance. Journal of the American Geriatrics Society, 43(4), 329-337.
Your first article is far too old to have any validity in the current medical forum.
Your second article is discussing the practicality of using antioxidant vitamins in patients suffering DKA events to prevent cognitive loss due to the damage from the oxidation process of the release of fatty acids from adipose tissue.
Your third article is an overall review of veterans living independently and what could be causing their weight loss- diabetes is potentially listed as only one possiblity.
My personal example is an old one... I was a teenager at the time. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Is there a study that refutes it?
That study was released after my issue, and identified a way to treat part of DKA related to (get this) breakdown of fat (gasp!).
I'm sure if I spent some time reviewing, I'd find plenty more studies.
Additionally, I just spoke with my endocrinologist 20 min. ago (I had a scheduled appointment) and brought up the question. He agrees that there is significant fat loss in DKA. The only part where he didn't see this issue the same as me (also not the same as you) is in regards to the high acidity. He would be more concerned about brain issues than heart or lung issues with that high level of acidity.0 -
You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
I'm not clear what question you are saying I've left unanswered, but I've thoroughly explained why the medical circumstance mentioned circumvents CICO.
Let's start with two things. Firstly, how you think it's at all helpful to keep bringing up a life or death medical emergency in CICO threads. Secondly, you referred early to your current situation being one where CICO didn't work absolutely. Why is that?
You're being all vague. Again. And still going on as if something is wrong with CICO. What is your current situation that's making CICO wrong?
Whether it was a fatality situation or not, it proves the point that CICO is not absolute.
My current situation where CICO doesn't work is (up until recently) several plateaus and whooshes over a 9 month period of time. The longest plateau was 5 months and ended with an 8 lb. whoosh in just a few days. I'm not sure why that happened, but I do know that I was doing what everyone would suggest (weighing food, logging every calorie, etc.) and still was fluctuating on the scale around the same base weight until I had a sudden and permanent loss.0 -
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You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »rainbowbow wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
This is really the heart of the matter - every medical condition can have an effect on weight loss, if it is not under control. However, it is completely irresponsible for a person with a medical condition to attempt to begin any weight loss while having a medical condition that is out of control.
PCOS, Hashimoto's, Hypothyroidism, Type II Diabetes... the list goes on and on for the most common conditions we see in the forums that report they have that keep them from losing weight. However, if a person has any of these conditions, they should be seeing a medical professional regularly to ensure that the medical condition becomes and remains under control.
Once these conditions are effectively under control, the person is just as capable of weight loss by following a calorie deficit as any healthy person.
That is the truth. ^
As i stated earlier in the thread (which seemingly no one noticed) was that even if you have one of those conditions uncontrolled (in my case undiagnosed) you can likely STILL lose weight by regulating calories in. That's the one part of the equation we CAN control.
Yes. The difficulty sometimes comes when some people are at the edges of the bell curve and need to be at too low a deficit to diet safely. The woman I mentioned earlier was consuming a fair amount of calories, so dropping 150 to lose due to a still not optimally functioning thyroid was fine for her. For someone already eating 1200, this wouldn't be a good solution.
There is a sad truth that not all doctors treat hypothyroidism properly. But yes, the majority of people can still lose weight, even with it not treated well. They just have to work harder at it.
RIGHT? Did you catch the post about my husband's thyroid a while back before DKA took over? He couldn't gain the weight back once he went from massively hypERthyroid to complete lack of the organ entirely. People's thyroid issues are very unique to the individual.0 -
My chosen (admittedly radical) treatment for T2 diabetes and obesity was bariatric surgery. The surgery took care of both conditions. T2 is greatly relieved by getting weight closer to normal range. So does one always treat the underlying condition first, or can it be helped by weight loss?
Weight loss is the first recommendation for high blood pressure, T2 diabetes and high cholesterol. People needing knee surgery are often asked to lose weight to reduce risk and improve recovery.
Isn't there a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario going on here?
Now, I believe people with metabolic conditions should check with their doctor before embarking on an elimination diet especially. Diabetics for instance are sensitive to the timing and types of foods they eat. Mess around with that too much and they can get very, very sick. I lost an uncle who went on a fad diet after a T2 diabetes diagnosis, from a stroke. He strayed too far from conventional advice and it killed him.0 -
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.0 -
You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You're wrong.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
Just repeating that someone is wrong doesn't really add much to the conversation. How is she wrong?0 -
My chosen (admittedly radical) treatment for T2 diabetes and obesity was bariatric surgery. The surgery took care of both conditions. T2 is greatly relieved by getting weight closer to normal range. So does one always treat the underlying condition first, or can it be helped by weight loss?
Weight loss is the first recommendation for high blood pressure, T2 diabetes and high cholesterol. People needing knee surgery are often asked to lose weight to reduce risk and improve recovery.
Isn't there a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario going on here?
Now, I believe people with metabolic conditions should check with their doctor before embarking on an elimination diet especially. Diabetics for instance are sensitive to the timing and types of foods they eat. Mess around with that too much and they can get very, very sick. I lost an uncle who went on a fad diet after a T2 diabetes diagnosis, from a stroke. He strayed too far from conventional advice and it killed him.
On the chicken and egg thing, I never had a weight problem of much note, and I fixed it when I went into overweight territory. My T2 has only gotten worse, and I didn't have it when overweight.
For the general population, I have no doubt that obesity adds to the T2 problem, but it's well known that weight is not the problem with everyone who has it.
0 -
cafeaulait7 wrote: »My chosen (admittedly radical) treatment for T2 diabetes and obesity was bariatric surgery. The surgery took care of both conditions. T2 is greatly relieved by getting weight closer to normal range. So does one always treat the underlying condition first, or can it be helped by weight loss?
Weight loss is the first recommendation for high blood pressure, T2 diabetes and high cholesterol. People needing knee surgery are often asked to lose weight to reduce risk and improve recovery.
Isn't there a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario going on here?
Now, I believe people with metabolic conditions should check with their doctor before embarking on an elimination diet especially. Diabetics for instance are sensitive to the timing and types of foods they eat. Mess around with that too much and they can get very, very sick. I lost an uncle who went on a fad diet after a T2 diabetes diagnosis, from a stroke. He strayed too far from conventional advice and it killed him.
On the chicken and egg thing, I never had a weight problem of much note, and I fixed it when I went into overweight territory. My T2 has only gotten worse, and I didn't have it when overweight.
For the general population, I have no doubt that obesity adds to the T2 problem, but it's well known that weight is not the problem with everyone who has it.
Most type 2's have it due to weight issues, but not all. There are various known reasons - misdiagnosed type 1 in adults, sometimes called LADA; as well as a rare genetic cause of type 2 that results in low insulin production (most type 2's make enough insulin, but use it inefficiently). And there are reasons that are not known. There are things that researchers have yet to understand, and I'm willing to accept that some people fall into that category. Thank you for sharing your experience.0 -
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
I think a reasonable discussion includes honest, affable exchange of information. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd appreciate the same, not blasting me with accusations.
I am not being egotistical in any way; I have years of medical experience and research experience to back up everything that I said. I do understand the problems that I am addressing. I'm sorry if you took some offense to my post- however, your feelings of offense don't negate the science behind everything that I said.0 -
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
How is she wrong? You said people eat more, in a calorie surplus because of the SIDE EFFECTS of a condition. You're both saying the same thing.0 -
chillaxin69 wrote: »
You're wrong.You don't know that hypothyroidism only counts for a minor weight gain. It can - and has - led to some major weight gain.
That slowed metabolism doesn't just make you gain a little more. It also depletes you of energy. Guess what your body craves when it has no energy? Yup! Food. So, if you want to move about, you need more food to give you energy. It also makes you tired - so tired. And constipated. And light-headed, especially if you're running on less food than "a lot of food." There are many other things, too.
Nobody likes to be starving and dizzy. People need to be able to go about their days. So, they eat. They eat "out of a deficit" so that they can go to work and go about their lives. And the pounds pack on.
In extreme cases, it can affect your breathing. It did mine! Although eating gets harder to do and you might take a little break while you have food, you need more food than ever.
There are a whole lot of medical conditions that affect different people in different ways. Even doctors don't understand them all and have to specialize. Some have yet to be understood by anyone. So, you're not going to figure them all out in a thread, online.
It might be best for us all to have the humility to remember that other people have issues that we cannot understand and leave it at that.
The hypothyroidism is not what leads to major weight gain. Making the decision to eat more when you have symptoms like dizziness, lack of energy, etc, is a conscious one. It is what the person did rather than, going to the doctor with that list of symptoms and determining the cause and then getting the medical condition causing them under control.
While it is true that people do have issues they might not understand, sometimes connecting in an online forum with other people who do understand them can help them in the journey. That's a much better, and much more supportive thing to do than just 'leaving it at that' when people are seeking help and answers.
You make assumptions that are wrong and they lead you to conclusions that are wrong. So, lots and lots of wrongness in that post.
If you don't wish to have the humility to admit that people have problems you don't understand, that is your choice. It's not a bad suggestion, though.
I think a reasonable discussion includes honest, affable exchange of information. That's what I'm trying to do. I'd appreciate the same, not blasting me with accusations.
I am not being egotistical in any way; I have years of medical experience and research experience to back up everything that I said. I do understand the problems that I am addressing. I'm sorry if you took some offense to my post- however, your feelings of offense don't negate the science behind everything that I said.
Don't engage, just report the violation. I'd like to see this thread not get drama filled. (At least until my question is answered!)
I can't. Would if Icould/0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'd actually like to show midwesterner where he's going off the rails, because he derails every CICO thread with his DKA episode.
He's even saying now -- to the point he left a question unanswered -- that his current medical condition renders CICO to not work absolutely.
The last statement goes to the heart of exactly what I'm trying to get to in this thread, and that is the mechanics whereby certain medical conditions effect CICO.
The understanding on the boards should be clear: CICO is always valid. The confounding factors can usually be explained, and in more complex, elegant accountings of CICO, they are indeed accounted for. Saying you have a medical condition doesn't negate CICO, add to it, or detract from it. It's just a part of the equation.
So let's explore those medical conditions and bring to light how they effect energy balance so people can understand why weight loss/gain might not work as expected.
I'm not clear what question you are saying I've left unanswered, but I've thoroughly explained why the medical circumstance mentioned circumvents CICO.
Let's start with two things. Firstly, how you think it's at all helpful to keep bringing up a life or death medical emergency in CICO threads. Secondly, you referred early to your current situation being one where CICO didn't work absolutely. Why is that?
You're being all vague. Again. And still going on as if something is wrong with CICO. What is your current situation that's making CICO wrong?
Whether it was a fatality situation or not, it proves the point that CICO is not absolute.
My current situation where CICO doesn't work is (up until recently) several plateaus and whooshes over a 9 month period of time. The longest plateau was 5 months and ended with an 8 lb. whoosh in just a few days. I'm not sure why that happened, but I do know that I was doing what everyone would suggest (weighing food, logging every calorie, etc.) and still was fluctuating on the scale around the same base weight until I had a sudden and permanent loss.
You and the plateaus. The last time I remember ever having this discussion, logging issues were abundant when it came to you.
Even if you were logging accurately and managing your condition well, there are factors involved with people who eat at deficit for long periods of time which effect their hormones. These are still accounted for in CICO -- EVEN IF THE PERSON TRYING TO BALANCE THE EQUATION DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THEM.
A different outcome than expected does NOT invalidate CICO, it simply speaks to the fact that you're not aware as an observer outside your body of all the factors playing into it at the moment.
Unless... wait a minute... are you truly confusing CICO with just the calories you consume and your exercise calories? Because I assure you, the energy balance equation is far more complex than that. It accounts for those hormonal factors, even if you can't.0
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