It's only "Natural" and the FDA wants your opinion!
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For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
I also wanted to say that when you read the publication it has information regarding Rhuematoid arthritis, I have that and I wanted to find that publication because I wanted to show it to my Rhuematologist. I have three forms of arthritis, Rhuematoid, Lupus SLE and Fibromyagia. I take zero medications because they tear my stomach to pieces. Thanks, I printed it.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »Of course, another alternative is not to buy pre-brined chicken. I personally would not.
lol, me too, it's easier said than done here in my area.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's more information on labeling:
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/meat-preparation/water-in-meat-and-poultry/ct_indexEnhanced Meat and Poultry Products
Many grocery stores are now offering meat and poultry products that have flavoring solutions added to them. For example, pork chops may be packaged with a solution of water, salt, and sodium phosphate (a solution that can add flavor and moisture to leaner meats). These new products also provide convenience by saving steps in preparation, such as "Teriyaki Beef in Teriyaki Sauce." To prevent confusion, the presence of flavor solutions must be stated on the front of the package.
Thus, you can't be surprised by the presence of this, even under the current law.Enhanced or value-added meat and poultry products are raw products that contain flavor solutions added through marinating, needle injecting, soaking, etc. The presence and amount of the solution will be featured as part of the product name, for example, "Chicken Thighs Flavored with up to 10% of a Solution" or "Beef Steak Marinated with 6% of a Flavor Solution." The ingredients of the flavor solution must be prominently identified on the label. Typically, this information will be on the principal display panel or the information panel.
The labeling term "marinated" can only be used with specific amounts of solution. "Marinated" meats can contain no more than 10% solution; boneless poultry, no more than 8% solution; and bone-in poultry, no more than 3% solution.
In the case of enhanced products, the solutions that are added to the meat or poultry, or into which the meat or poultry are placed for flavoring, seasoning, and tenderizing, are intended to be part of the product. The solutions are required by regulations and policies to be identified as part of the product names of the enhanced products, and whether the solution is incorporated into the product or is free-flowing, it is considered part of the product.
So this sounds to me like the carrageenan would have to be listed if used as part of the brine (vs. in some other processing aid capacity).
What OP really seems upset about is a different aspect of the labeling, the useless "natural" claim that is made on some foods (and which I've always heard should be ignored, as it's basically meaningless -- just as people shouldn't think "cage free" or "vegetarian" means anything significant re eggs and so on). That's covered here:Natural Products
All raw single ingredient meat and poultry qualify as "natural." However, certain products labeled as natural may also contain a flavoring solution provided the solution contains ingredients that are minimally processed and not artificial; e.g., natural flavoring. The amount of solution added to products bearing natural claims is not limited. All products claiming to be natural should be accompanied by a brief statement which explains what is meant by the term "natural."
So I take this to mean that as it currently stands the "natural" label can be used on products with carrageenan as part of the brine. Again, I don't think that's important (I think the "natural" label is stupid marketing nonsense), I think listing the ingredients is the key thing.
(I never buy chicken in the grocery store, but I'm going to go look at it ASAP now.)
Yes, you got it. The chicken in question was a 10 pound bag of bone in with skin chicken leg quarters. There is a brine solution injected into the chicken, the carageenan is present in the brine which is in the final product and will be consumed to a degree when cooked. Only the brine is listed, not the ingredients in the brine. I need that label changed to indicate there is carageenan present, so that I can purchase chicken I know is free of carageenan. From what I understand they are supposed to be listing the carageenan in this example because the brine is in the final product for consumption. It's used for flavor and to plump the chicken.
But it looks to me from these rules that they are required to identify the ingredients in the brine:The ingredients of the flavor solution must be prominently identified on the label. Typically, this information will be on the principal display panel or the information panel.
They aren't required to identify carrageenan when it is used as a processing aid and left only in insignificant amounts, which seems a different thing from the brine.
Exactly, but it wasn't on the package.0 -
For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
Why do you think it wouldn't make a difference? The BCL pathway is present in all epithelial cells (and smooth muscle, too) and I'd think you'd see cytosine response to an allergen on the skin. Allergen --> BCL --> IL-8, etc...
BCL activation is pretty common in microbial agent response and even air-born allergens.
By the way, it is also part of the possible model for tumor activation in certain animal models via the MALT cascade.
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I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
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anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
No that was me screwing up the name. I'm talking about the 10 lb package of chicken leg quarters from County Post.
The labeling rules I quoted came into effect in 2013, I think, so if this was a while ago it might not have been required yet. But you seem to be focusing on the big type on the front and not the actual list of ingredients, also. The bigger point is that if carrageenan is used in the brine labeling does seem to be required already.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
No that was me screwing up the name. I'm talking about the 10 lb package of chicken leg quarters from County Post.
Okay, so a blue label? Yes, I can find that info online also, but it wasn't on the label in the store, how was I to know then?
Let me tell ya, I eat a lot more ground turkey than I do chicken, lol.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
No that was me screwing up the name. I'm talking about the 10 lb package of chicken leg quarters from County Post.
The labeling rules I quoted came into effect in 2013, I think, so if this was a while ago it might not have been required yet. But you seem to be focusing on the big type on the front and not the actual list of ingredients, also. The bigger point is that if carrageenan is used in the brine labeling does seem to be required already.
This one?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/County-Post-Chicken-Leg-Quarters-Poultry-10-Lb/10534304
Current labelling seems to cover it.0 -
anewstart22 wrote: »For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
I also wanted to say that when you read the publication it has information regarding Rhuematoid arthritis, I have that and I wanted to find that publication because I wanted to show it to my Rhuematologist. I have three forms of arthritis, Rhuematoid, Lupus SLE and Fibromyagia. I take zero medications because they tear my stomach to pieces. Thanks, I printed it.
The fact that you also have an autoimmune disease or diseases might actually be responsible or at least increase your hypersensitivity to certain products.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
No that was me screwing up the name. I'm talking about the 10 lb package of chicken leg quarters from County Post.
The labeling rules I quoted came into effect in 2013, I think, so if this was a while ago it might not have been required yet. But you seem to be focusing on the big type on the front and not the actual list of ingredients, also. The bigger point is that if carrageenan is used in the brine labeling does seem to be required already.
Let's get off the package picture on the front, I was making a point about young children and them having chocolate chip cookies as a regular thing in their diet. If they had a known allergy to coconut, the child would not know there was coconut in that cookie. Let's say this child was in someone else's home? So let's get off that.
The package on the chicken, I looked front and back about a month or two ago, I asked the meat dept head if he knew what was in the brine, he said he did not know, I told him I would call the company and find out. I called the number on the bag.
It was about one year ago when I initially had the problem with the chicken and was afraid to buy anymore of it. The carageenan was not listed about one month or two ago. I called the company asking them what was in the brine because it does not say it on the 10 pound bag. That is when I got the surprise of carageenan being a part of the brine. I knew then, that is why the chicken hurt me. My husband doesn't seem to have a problem with carageenan.
Let me also note that I had become interested in that bag again because it was on sale for .29 cents per pound, but I remembered it had caused me stomach issues. I always look at the labels on food.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
I also wanted to say that when you read the publication it has information regarding Rhuematoid arthritis, I have that and I wanted to find that publication because I wanted to show it to my Rhuematologist. I have three forms of arthritis, Rhuematoid, Lupus SLE and Fibromyagia. I take zero medications because they tear my stomach to pieces. Thanks, I printed it.
The fact that you also have an autoimmune disease or diseases might actually be responsible or at least increase your hypersensitivity to certain products.
This.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
I also wanted to say that when you read the publication it has information regarding Rhuematoid arthritis, I have that and I wanted to find that publication because I wanted to show it to my Rhuematologist. I have three forms of arthritis, Rhuematoid, Lupus SLE and Fibromyagia. I take zero medications because they tear my stomach to pieces. Thanks, I printed it.
The fact that you also have an autoimmune disease or diseases might actually be responsible or at least increase your hypersensitivity to certain products.
MFP PLOT TWIST!0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
It's easy to get those confused, it is called County Post, with a blue label, and it is not on the 10 pound package. I might have spelled it wrong in the original OP, if I did I apologize, it's easy to get them confused.
No that was me screwing up the name. I'm talking about the 10 lb package of chicken leg quarters from County Post.
The labeling rules I quoted came into effect in 2013, I think, so if this was a while ago it might not have been required yet. But you seem to be focusing on the big type on the front and not the actual list of ingredients, also. The bigger point is that if carrageenan is used in the brine labeling does seem to be required already.
This one?
http://www.walmart.com/ip/County-Post-Chicken-Leg-Quarters-Poultry-10-Lb/10534304
Current labelling seems to cover it.
Sure, that is the product, but I don't see anywhere that it says carageenan is an additive on that bag. It is enhanced with 12% chicken broth.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »anewstart22 wrote: »For those of you that seem to be hung up on blood vs. skin tests - it wouldn't make a difference. The proposed effect of carrageenan is not an allergic reaction, though the symptoms are similar.
Quoted from the post by pzarnosky on page 2, I think:
Carrageenan can cause an inflammation response because of certain binding cascades which will activate an increased production of interleukin-8, which is part of the immune response. It seems that in some people there is a decreased threshold of tolerance to the additive. Exposure to it, for some, causes an overproduction of IL-8 through that binding cascade. IL-8 is basically a chemical signal to specific types of white bloods cells and it tells them there is a foreign substance that needs to be elimintaed. The attack that insues causes inflammation and some damage to the GI tract, this is the cause of your pain and problems. It's really similar to an allergy. That does not mean that it is bad and dangerous for all people. There is no proof of that. Yes, there is evidence that in some individuals carrageenan can cause problems, but your blanket statement isn't really appropriate.
I believe the assertion is based on this paper: ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17095757
I also wanted to say that when you read the publication it has information regarding Rhuematoid arthritis, I have that and I wanted to find that publication because I wanted to show it to my Rhuematologist. I have three forms of arthritis, Rhuematoid, Lupus SLE and Fibromyagia. I take zero medications because they tear my stomach to pieces. Thanks, I printed it.
The fact that you also have an autoimmune disease or diseases might actually be responsible or at least increase your hypersensitivity to certain products.
True! And those with high acid in their stomachs have problems with carageenan. The medications caused me GERD real bad, it destroyed my esophagus too.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I just tracked down the label for the Country Post chicken product OP is talking about in the initial post, and it has this information:
Ingredients: Solution Ingredients: Chicken Broth, Salt, Carrageenan. Gluten Free
HA!
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This indicates that they've identified the carrageenan since at least 2005:
https://leerburg.com/webboard/printthread.php?topic_id=9799
Post from 11/20/2005Walmart Chicken
Good day everyone.
Well, after reading quite a few of the different raw diet posts and seeing where everyone gets their meat, I realized that a few of you (us) get your chicken and other meats from Walmart b/c of the price. Tonight, I took that advice and took a spin over to the Walmart SuperStore here in the area.
Upon arriving I found a great deal on "County Post" chicken leg quarters. It ended up being only $.40/lb. I grabbed a bag and headed home.
After preparing for the freezer, I happened to look on the bag and noticed that the chicken had things added to it. Which I found kind of odd. The package said that they added: Chicken Broth, Sodium Phosphate, Salt and Carageenan.
Are those anything I need to worry about feeding to my pup? All the other meat I bought was just straight MEAT. No additives like that. I would've taken it back, but I already opened the package and cut one of the quarters up.0
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