There are 'BAD' foods
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queenliz99 wrote: »rankinsect wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »Weightloss businesses such as Weightwatchers and Slimming World have no problem defining some foods as 'bad' - Slimming World by categorising some calorie dense foods as 'syns' [sin = bad]. The new Weightwatchers plan by penalising the dieter by upping the points on foods they deem undesirable [bad]. I am sure both these organisations employ qualified nutritionists.
And want you to purchase their products.
Totally missed the point!
No I didn't. They label things as "bad" so you feel guilty for eating it, and instead buy their product. You only feel bad because you're told to. I eat pizza and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat a candybar and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat fried chicken and I love it, I don't feel bad about it.
I felt bad when I OVERINDULGED on those (and any other) things. Not the food, the act.
Well for me its the other way around. I eat pizza and chocolate - they are bad foods to me but I don't feel bad about eating them - my choice.
what is bad about pizza? It has protein, fat, and carbs….three essential macronutrients...
I never get the 'pizza is bad' thing. If you take the ingredients individually, it's a balanced, rounded meal. Bread, meat, veg, some cheese...
But make the bread round and the rest of the food on top of it and all of a sudden it's satan. I don't get it.
If you'd eaten what passes for pizza around my home, you'd think it was bad too.
There are some amazing places in Madison, but it's like a 45 minute drive each way
Learn to make your own, it is very easy.
This is what i have at home.
What do I look like, a guy who's not lazy?
Okay, I do homemade pizza sometimes, but not as often as I'd like pizza.0 -
I actually never said that my pizza contains an excess of micros (with the exception of manganese, I'm not sure that there are any micro amounts more than the RDA). Rather, dominoes and other pizza made from white flour is severely lacking (compared to mine) of several micros. Magnesium is one micro that stands out. 4 slices of my pizza has around 35% of the RDA just from the dough. Calorie for calorie, you'd have to eat a massive amount more of dominoes to come anywhere close when comparing cheese vs cheese, pepperoni vs pepperoni, etc.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Others may disagree, but I would consider foods that contain several preservatives and extra "stuff" that I wouldn't consider food ingredients to be more unhealthy than a food product not made with the extra ingredients.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I wouldn't put it in the worst category, I'd consider dominoes to be more bad than good from an overall nutritional standpoint. The dough has several ingredients added as either preservatives or conditioners that would not be found even in certain authentic pizza places. If you're getting, say, a plain cheese pizza or pepperoni, the pizza is essentially fairly low in micros. So, I'd say the combination of being a low nutrient dense food coupled with extra "stuff" added to it that don't belong in authentic pizza would make it more of a bad food than good.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I personally don't think pizza (made from an authentic place that uses minimal ingredients or homemade) is a bad food. That being said, and I guess this is where the whole 'moderation' thing comes in, generally speaking more bread is consumed when people eat pizza than when eating the components individually. In other words, a normal sized homemade pizza I make contains close to 2 cups of flour. This means that 4 slices has nearly 1 cup of flour, which would be equivalent to 4-5 slices of bread. Based on carb counts and the thickness of the crust, I think it's fair to say that in general, a large and certainly an XL commercial pizza would contain at least as much flour.Alatariel75 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »Weightloss businesses such as Weightwatchers and Slimming World have no problem defining some foods as 'bad' - Slimming World by categorising some calorie dense foods as 'syns' [sin = bad]. The new Weightwatchers plan by penalising the dieter by upping the points on foods they deem undesirable [bad]. I am sure both these organisations employ qualified nutritionists.
And want you to purchase their products.
Totally missed the point!
No I didn't. They label things as "bad" so you feel guilty for eating it, and instead buy their product. You only feel bad because you're told to. I eat pizza and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat a candybar and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat fried chicken and I love it, I don't feel bad about it.
I felt bad when I OVERINDULGED on those (and any other) things. Not the food, the act.
Well for me its the other way around. I eat pizza and chocolate - they are bad foods to me but I don't feel bad about eating them - my choice.
what is bad about pizza? It has protein, fat, and carbs….three essential macronutrients...
I never get the 'pizza is bad' thing. If you take the ingredients individually, it's a balanced, rounded meal. Bread, meat, veg, some cheese...
But make the bread round and the rest of the food on top of it and all of a sudden it's satan. I don't get it.
what makes a pizza from say, dominos, bad?
why is homemade good and not homemade bad?
By contrast, my homemade pizza is made from freshly ground whole grain flour. Additionally, much of the flour sits in a sourdough starter, which makes the micronutrients more absorbable. This means my pizza dough is dramatically higher inn micros than dominoes, and it is essentially a good source of numerous minerals and a few vitamins. Also, there are aren't any dough conditioners and preservatives added to my pizza. All of that put together makes my pizza a good food, IMO.
What if you get all your micros from a different source?
Also, lack of micros does not make something bad, it just makes it less nutritionally dense.
So basically your processing is better than dominos, which makes dominos bad? At the end of the day they are both processed pizza and I fail to see how one is bad and one is good; they are both just pizza.
Since my pizza has a much higher micro content, I consider it something that I can better use to meet my nutrient needs. Whereas, dominoes is something that you wouldn't typically look for to fulfil any micros (though I realize there are small amounts of a couple), so it's something that becomes part of the small calorie allotment for less nutrient dense foods. I know some here try to follow the 80/20 guide for nutrient dense vs low nutrient dense foods. Instead of making pizza part of the 20, I would put mine in the 80 category (though of course that doesn't mean I should gorge myself on it).
You fail to understand that just because your pizza contains 1000% over the rda of micros it does not make it good or bad, it just makes it pizza. Also, your body can't process additional micros so you get zero benefit from going over in them.
Just because food has preservatives does not make it bad.
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suziecue20 wrote: »
;suziecue20 wrote: »Good and bad are not vague terms, they are absolute. You can never have good without bad.
Then go ask a vegan and a keto dieter if they consider an all-natural, free-range organic chicken breast as good or bad. See how absolute your absolute is.
One man's meat is another man's poison - but a vegan's 'bad' is absolute to them
No, it's not. I'm vegan but it doesn't mean I consider meat to be a bad food. It's fine. It's not for me, but it contains protein and iron and good, nutritionally dense calories. I'd have no problem feeding a free-range organic chicken breast to my child.
An orange soda, though? A Twinkie? A packet of gummy bears? No. That's not food. And I'm fine with an absolute on s*** like that, because to me it's a no-brainer. I think we get lost in the semantics of good vs. bad and lose track of the common sense notion that overprocessed, nutritionally vacant food is BAD FOR YOU. It just is. Will you die from ingesting it now and then? Of course not. But would we be better off without it? Yeah. Absolutely.0 -
vaguelyvegan wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »
;suziecue20 wrote: »Good and bad are not vague terms, they are absolute. You can never have good without bad.
Then go ask a vegan and a keto dieter if they consider an all-natural, free-range organic chicken breast as good or bad. See how absolute your absolute is.
One man's meat is another man's poison - but a vegan's 'bad' is absolute to them
No, it's not. I'm vegan but it doesn't mean I consider meat to be a bad food. It's fine. It's not for me, but it contains protein and iron and good, nutritionally dense calories. I'd have no problem feeding a free-range organic chicken breast to my child.
An orange soda, though? A Twinkie? A packet of gummy bears? No. That's not food. And I'm fine with an absolute on s*** like that, because to me it's a no-brainer. I think we get lost in the semantics of good vs. bad and lose track of the common sense notion that overprocessed, nutritionally vacant food is BAD FOR YOU. It just is. Will you die from ingesting it now and then? Of course not. But would we be better off without it? Yeah. Absolutely.
Gummy bears are excellent for post workout glycogen replenishment and contain nothing that will harm me.
ETA and if it doesn't hurt me, I'm not better off without it. I'm sadder and less energetic.0 -
vaguelyvegan wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »
;suziecue20 wrote: »Good and bad are not vague terms, they are absolute. You can never have good without bad.
Then go ask a vegan and a keto dieter if they consider an all-natural, free-range organic chicken breast as good or bad. See how absolute your absolute is.
One man's meat is another man's poison - but a vegan's 'bad' is absolute to them
No, it's not. I'm vegan but it doesn't mean I consider meat to be a bad food. It's fine. It's not for me, but it contains protein and iron and good, nutritionally dense calories. I'd have no problem feeding a free-range organic chicken breast to my child.
An orange soda, though? A Twinkie? A packet of gummy bears? No. That's not food. And I'm fine with an absolute on s*** like that, because to me it's a no-brainer. I think we get lost in the semantics of good vs. bad and lose track of the common sense notion that overprocessed, nutritionally vacant food is BAD FOR YOU. It just is. Will you die from ingesting it now and then? Of course not. But would we be better off without it? Yeah. Absolutely.[\b]
And the bolded is basically the crux of the whole argument.
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vaguelyvegan wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »
;suziecue20 wrote: »Good and bad are not vague terms, they are absolute. You can never have good without bad.
Then go ask a vegan and a keto dieter if they consider an all-natural, free-range organic chicken breast as good or bad. See how absolute your absolute is.
One man's meat is another man's poison - but a vegan's 'bad' is absolute to them
No, it's not. I'm vegan but it doesn't mean I consider meat to be a bad food. It's fine. It's not for me, but it contains protein and iron and good, nutritionally dense calories. I'd have no problem feeding a free-range organic chicken breast to my child.
An orange soda, though? A Twinkie? A packet of gummy bears? No. That's not food. And I'm fine with an absolute on s*** like that, because to me it's a no-brainer. I think we get lost in the semantics of good vs. bad and lose track of the common sense notion that overprocessed, nutritionally vacant food is BAD FOR YOU. It just is. Will you die from ingesting it now and then? Of course not. But would we be better off without it? Yeah. Absolutely.[\b]
And the bolded is basically the crux of the whole argument.
And it's also basically projecting an incorrect assertion onto the world population in general and to the MFP moderation crowd in particular.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I actually never said that my pizza contains an excess of micros (with the exception of manganese, I'm not sure that there are any micro amounts more than the RDA). Rather, dominoes and other pizza made from white flour is severely lacking (compared to mine) of several micros. Magnesium is one micro that stands out. 4 slices of my pizza has around 35% of the RDA just from the dough. Calorie for calorie, you'd have to eat a massive amount more of dominoes to come anywhere close when comparing cheese vs cheese, pepperoni vs pepperoni, etc.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Others may disagree, but I would consider foods that contain several preservatives and extra "stuff" that I wouldn't consider food ingredients to be more unhealthy than a food product not made with the extra ingredients.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I wouldn't put it in the worst category, I'd consider dominoes to be more bad than good from an overall nutritional standpoint. The dough has several ingredients added as either preservatives or conditioners that would not be found even in certain authentic pizza places. If you're getting, say, a plain cheese pizza or pepperoni, the pizza is essentially fairly low in micros. So, I'd say the combination of being a low nutrient dense food coupled with extra "stuff" added to it that don't belong in authentic pizza would make it more of a bad food than good.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I personally don't think pizza (made from an authentic place that uses minimal ingredients or homemade) is a bad food. That being said, and I guess this is where the whole 'moderation' thing comes in, generally speaking more bread is consumed when people eat pizza than when eating the components individually. In other words, a normal sized homemade pizza I make contains close to 2 cups of flour. This means that 4 slices has nearly 1 cup of flour, which would be equivalent to 4-5 slices of bread. Based on carb counts and the thickness of the crust, I think it's fair to say that in general, a large and certainly an XL commercial pizza would contain at least as much flour.Alatariel75 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »Weightloss businesses such as Weightwatchers and Slimming World have no problem defining some foods as 'bad' - Slimming World by categorising some calorie dense foods as 'syns' [sin = bad]. The new Weightwatchers plan by penalising the dieter by upping the points on foods they deem undesirable [bad]. I am sure both these organisations employ qualified nutritionists.
And want you to purchase their products.
Totally missed the point!
No I didn't. They label things as "bad" so you feel guilty for eating it, and instead buy their product. You only feel bad because you're told to. I eat pizza and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat a candybar and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat fried chicken and I love it, I don't feel bad about it.
I felt bad when I OVERINDULGED on those (and any other) things. Not the food, the act.
Well for me its the other way around. I eat pizza and chocolate - they are bad foods to me but I don't feel bad about eating them - my choice.
what is bad about pizza? It has protein, fat, and carbs….three essential macronutrients...
I never get the 'pizza is bad' thing. If you take the ingredients individually, it's a balanced, rounded meal. Bread, meat, veg, some cheese...
But make the bread round and the rest of the food on top of it and all of a sudden it's satan. I don't get it.
what makes a pizza from say, dominos, bad?
why is homemade good and not homemade bad?
By contrast, my homemade pizza is made from freshly ground whole grain flour. Additionally, much of the flour sits in a sourdough starter, which makes the micronutrients more absorbable. This means my pizza dough is dramatically higher inn micros than dominoes, and it is essentially a good source of numerous minerals and a few vitamins. Also, there are aren't any dough conditioners and preservatives added to my pizza. All of that put together makes my pizza a good food, IMO.
What if you get all your micros from a different source?
Also, lack of micros does not make something bad, it just makes it less nutritionally dense.
So basically your processing is better than dominos, which makes dominos bad? At the end of the day they are both processed pizza and I fail to see how one is bad and one is good; they are both just pizza.
Since my pizza has a much higher micro content, I consider it something that I can better use to meet my nutrient needs. Whereas, dominoes is something that you wouldn't typically look for to fulfil any micros (though I realize there are small amounts of a couple), so it's something that becomes part of the small calorie allotment for less nutrient dense foods. I know some here try to follow the 80/20 guide for nutrient dense vs low nutrient dense foods. Instead of making pizza part of the 20, I would put mine in the 80 category (though of course that doesn't mean I should gorge myself on it).
You fail to understand that just because your pizza contains 1000% over the rda of micros it does not make it good or bad, it just makes it pizza. Also, your body can't process additional micros so you get zero benefit from going over in them.
Just because food has preservatives does not make it bad.
Guys, I'm fairly certain I read this same conversation like a year ago.
Right down to the talk about micronutrients in the homemade pizza and the preservatives and white flour in the pizza from the pizza joint.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »vaguelyvegan wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »
;suziecue20 wrote: »Good and bad are not vague terms, they are absolute. You can never have good without bad.
Then go ask a vegan and a keto dieter if they consider an all-natural, free-range organic chicken breast as good or bad. See how absolute your absolute is.
One man's meat is another man's poison - but a vegan's 'bad' is absolute to them
No, it's not. I'm vegan but it doesn't mean I consider meat to be a bad food. It's fine. It's not for me, but it contains protein and iron and good, nutritionally dense calories. I'd have no problem feeding a free-range organic chicken breast to my child.
An orange soda, though? A Twinkie? A packet of gummy bears? No. That's not food. And I'm fine with an absolute on s*** like that, because to me it's a no-brainer. I think we get lost in the semantics of good vs. bad and lose track of the common sense notion that overprocessed, nutritionally vacant food is BAD FOR YOU. It just is. Will you die from ingesting it now and then? Of course not. But would we be better off without it? Yeah. Absolutely.[\b]
And the bolded is basically the crux of the whole argument.
And it's also basically projecting an incorrect assertion onto the world population in general and to the MFP moderation crowd in particular.
Yup.
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queenliz99 wrote: »Unrefrigerated foods left out on the counter are bad and may make you sick. Food past their expiration date can be bad. Food dropped on the floor not so bad, if you use the 4 second rule.
ETA: Fricken commas, I hate them.
no way! In australia we have the 5 second rule LOL0 -
queenliz99 wrote: »Unrefrigerated foods left out on the counter are bad and may make you sick. Food past their expiration date can be bad. Food dropped on the floor not so bad, if you use the 4 second rule.
ETA: Fricken commas, I hate them.
no way! In australia we have the 5 second rule LOL
Same in the U.S.0 -
Yeah where is this 4 seconds coming from? It's always 5...or 250
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Carlos_421 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I actually never said that my pizza contains an excess of micros (with the exception of manganese, I'm not sure that there are any micro amounts more than the RDA). Rather, dominoes and other pizza made from white flour is severely lacking (compared to mine) of several micros. Magnesium is one micro that stands out. 4 slices of my pizza has around 35% of the RDA just from the dough. Calorie for calorie, you'd have to eat a massive amount more of dominoes to come anywhere close when comparing cheese vs cheese, pepperoni vs pepperoni, etc.ForecasterJason wrote: »
Others may disagree, but I would consider foods that contain several preservatives and extra "stuff" that I wouldn't consider food ingredients to be more unhealthy than a food product not made with the extra ingredients.ForecasterJason wrote: »
While I wouldn't put it in the worst category, I'd consider dominoes to be more bad than good from an overall nutritional standpoint. The dough has several ingredients added as either preservatives or conditioners that would not be found even in certain authentic pizza places. If you're getting, say, a plain cheese pizza or pepperoni, the pizza is essentially fairly low in micros. So, I'd say the combination of being a low nutrient dense food coupled with extra "stuff" added to it that don't belong in authentic pizza would make it more of a bad food than good.ForecasterJason wrote: »
I personally don't think pizza (made from an authentic place that uses minimal ingredients or homemade) is a bad food. That being said, and I guess this is where the whole 'moderation' thing comes in, generally speaking more bread is consumed when people eat pizza than when eating the components individually. In other words, a normal sized homemade pizza I make contains close to 2 cups of flour. This means that 4 slices has nearly 1 cup of flour, which would be equivalent to 4-5 slices of bread. Based on carb counts and the thickness of the crust, I think it's fair to say that in general, a large and certainly an XL commercial pizza would contain at least as much flour.Alatariel75 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »suziecue20 wrote: »Weightloss businesses such as Weightwatchers and Slimming World have no problem defining some foods as 'bad' - Slimming World by categorising some calorie dense foods as 'syns' [sin = bad]. The new Weightwatchers plan by penalising the dieter by upping the points on foods they deem undesirable [bad]. I am sure both these organisations employ qualified nutritionists.
And want you to purchase their products.
Totally missed the point!
No I didn't. They label things as "bad" so you feel guilty for eating it, and instead buy their product. You only feel bad because you're told to. I eat pizza and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat a candybar and I love it, I don't feel bad about it. I eat fried chicken and I love it, I don't feel bad about it.
I felt bad when I OVERINDULGED on those (and any other) things. Not the food, the act.
Well for me its the other way around. I eat pizza and chocolate - they are bad foods to me but I don't feel bad about eating them - my choice.
what is bad about pizza? It has protein, fat, and carbs….three essential macronutrients...
I never get the 'pizza is bad' thing. If you take the ingredients individually, it's a balanced, rounded meal. Bread, meat, veg, some cheese...
But make the bread round and the rest of the food on top of it and all of a sudden it's satan. I don't get it.
what makes a pizza from say, dominos, bad?
why is homemade good and not homemade bad?
By contrast, my homemade pizza is made from freshly ground whole grain flour. Additionally, much of the flour sits in a sourdough starter, which makes the micronutrients more absorbable. This means my pizza dough is dramatically higher inn micros than dominoes, and it is essentially a good source of numerous minerals and a few vitamins. Also, there are aren't any dough conditioners and preservatives added to my pizza. All of that put together makes my pizza a good food, IMO.
What if you get all your micros from a different source?
Also, lack of micros does not make something bad, it just makes it less nutritionally dense.
So basically your processing is better than dominos, which makes dominos bad? At the end of the day they are both processed pizza and I fail to see how one is bad and one is good; they are both just pizza.
Since my pizza has a much higher micro content, I consider it something that I can better use to meet my nutrient needs. Whereas, dominoes is something that you wouldn't typically look for to fulfil any micros (though I realize there are small amounts of a couple), so it's something that becomes part of the small calorie allotment for less nutrient dense foods. I know some here try to follow the 80/20 guide for nutrient dense vs low nutrient dense foods. Instead of making pizza part of the 20, I would put mine in the 80 category (though of course that doesn't mean I should gorge myself on it).
You fail to understand that just because your pizza contains 1000% over the rda of micros it does not make it good or bad, it just makes it pizza. Also, your body can't process additional micros so you get zero benefit from going over in them.
Just because food has preservatives does not make it bad.
Guys, I'm fairly certain I read this same conversation like a year ago.
Right down to the talk about micronutrients in the homemade pizza and the preservatives and white flour in the pizza from the pizza joint.
You did. It's been discussed so many times that I am pretty sure I have the crust recipe memorized by now.
Once again though, it just comes back to overkill. Sure, I enjoy homemade pizza and have made dough from scratch before. It's tasty, but is it worth milling my own flour for the increase in micronutrients that I can get through many other, less labor intensive sources? Not to me, but if someone has the time to do that and wants to spend that much time to get their micros in, more power to them. That doesn't mean that there's something inherently bad or unhealthy about dough that doesn't have the special processing, or the local pizza joint's offering, or every the commercially available pizza from big chains.0 -
TheBeachgod wrote: »So it is something that works for you. Great! But there are no bad foods.
Exactly. It's one thing to say "it's a mind game that works for me because I can't help myself from bingeing". It's quite something else to insist that it's a universal truth and everybody else needs to think in the same mind frame.
It is late and I'm tired, would you mind clarifying for which side you are making the above point?0 -
TheBeachgod wrote: »So it is something that works for you. Great! But there are no bad foods.
Exactly. It's one thing to say "it's a mind game that works for me because I can't help myself from bingeing". It's quite something else to insist that it's a universal truth and everybody else needs to think in the same mind frame.
It is late and I'm tired, would you mind clarifying for which side you are making the above point?
Basically he's saying if someone wants to tell themselves that a food is bad to keep their own diet in check that's fine but they shouldn't project those labels and assert that we, too, should agree that those foods are bad.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »TheBeachgod wrote: »So it is something that works for you. Great! But there are no bad foods.
Exactly. It's one thing to say "it's a mind game that works for me because I can't help myself from bingeing". It's quite something else to insist that it's a universal truth and everybody else needs to think in the same mind frame.
It is late and I'm tired, would you mind clarifying for which side you are making the above point?
Basically he's saying if someone wants to tell themselves that a food is bad to keep their own diet in check that's fine but they shouldn't project those labels and assert that we, too, should agree that those foods are bad.
Not to mention infer that people who don't label their foods as 'bad' are fooling themselves or are in denial.0 -
This is worth repeating:
Cassano's has the very best pizza.
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arditarose wrote: »Yeah where is this 4 seconds coming from? It's always 5...or 25
I think it depends on the floor you drop it on. There is an absolute 0 second rule at my workplace. At home, the dog usually gets it before I can pick it up (she thinks she's starving to death, so she's pretty quick).Carlos_421 wrote: »
Cassano's Pizza King.
Best pizza in the world.
This is a thing of beauty! I met most of my macros before going to workout tonight, so I enjoyed 16 oz of beer and some fries. All in all, it's been a really good day! But that pizza? *drool*0 -
That pizza is mesmerizing...
Transfats ARE bad. That shiz will mess you up!
That's all I've got.0 -
It's worth noting that food preservatives have made it possible for more people to be fed, for less food to spoil, and for far fewer illnesses and deaths from foodborne illnesses. Preservatives are not "bad" per se either. And humans have been preserving food for millennia ; through dehydration, salt (pickling), sugar (honey even) and other means.
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