Feminists and nonconformists - where do your goals come from?
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I'm more concerned about improving my health and if losing weight allows me to also get into a smaller size clothing all the better. I want to feel good about myself, by that I mean being healthy enough to do the things I want to do, especially spend time with my grandchildren being active.0
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All the great answers in this thread.
OP, all goals are to some extent a mix of internal and external motivation. Do you want to like what you see when you look in the mirror, with no one else in the room? Do you want to like the way it feels to live in your body? That's mostly internal motivation. If you don't want to be at a normal BMI because you're worried that it will somehow make you unfeminist or too mainstream, bad news - that's external motivation. If you decide to go left for no other reason than that somebody else told you to go right, you're letting their actions control yours just as much as you would be if you followed their directions blindly.
I don't worry much about where my goals come from. They're my goals. Feminism is about allowing women to have their own goals and make their own choices, and not have other people's goals and aesthetic imposed on them. Whatever tells you your goals for your own body are not okay are the opposite of feminist.0 -
Since I'm 5'3 and was 271 pounds at my heaviest, it was only luck that my weight hadn't negatively impacted my health. However, it was only a matter of time and really, I want to see my children grow up, want to enjoy life, want to ride my bike, want to hike. want to live my life and not sit, addled with health complications, watching it go by.
So no, not society, but my own desire for a better quality life.0 -
My maintenance size turned out to be a lot smaller than I thought it would be. However, my top fitness priorities have always been to feel good, have fun, and be healthy, in that order. Looking good comes in fourth.0
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CoffeeNCardio wrote: »As a very outspoken advocate against body-shaming, and a born and bred feminist, I can happily say that it's MY body and I'll make it look however I dam well please. If that happens to mimic societal beauty standards, so be it. I know what I want to look like. I know how I want to feel (energetic and happy). And uterus notwithstanding, I'm perfectly capable of making that decision in spite of the fashion industry.
I also really like clothes I find pretty. I like to feel pretty. I have no issue existing in both spheres and cannot comprehend why I shouldn't.
Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to stop caring what you look like. It means you don't let other people decide that for you. Whether that be some guy saying you're ugly because you don't meet his standard of sexual desirability (cause you are more than a sexual object) or some other woman saying you need to meet standards to be socially acceptable.
Unless it's Kim Kardashian?0 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »As a very outspoken advocate against body-shaming, and a born and bred feminist, I can happily say that it's MY body and I'll make it look however I dam well please. If that happens to mimic societal beauty standards, so be it. I know what I want to look like. I know how I want to feel (energetic and happy). And uterus notwithstanding, I'm perfectly capable of making that decision in spite of the fashion industry.
I also really like clothes I find pretty. I like to feel pretty. I have no issue existing in both spheres and cannot comprehend why I shouldn't.
Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to stop caring what you look like. It means you don't let other people decide that for you. Whether that be some guy saying you're ugly because you don't meet his standard of sexual desirability (cause you are more than a sexual object) or some other woman saying you need to meet standards to be socially acceptable.
Unless it's Kim Kardashian?
But big booty shaming doesn't count.0 -
Fifty something grandma here, I have lost significant weight and achieved major health gains but I am still officially obese.
If I belch, shave, fart, and jiggle my belly fat in front of my hubby, have I achieved equality?
I undertook this weight loss to get my health and mobility back. A leaner body can do things like enter a tough mudder or hike a mountain.
As for dressing up and painting up, I treat it as a bit of theatre to increase my influence. Standing tall, a sparkle in the eye, a great haircut and a conspiratorial grin do more than all the outward dressings.
Now, combine that with an intelligence with something worthwhile to say.....
HA! They change the channel to the Kardashians.0 -
People who talk about "society's expectations" talk like "society" is some separate entity or something. It's us. *We* are "society." You can choose to be attractive to us (which includes you), or not. It just so happens that what we find healthy also happens to be physically attractive, too, so it's a double-whammy of good for anybody who gets healthy.0
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People who talk about "society's expectations" talk like "society" is some separate entity or something. It's us. *We* are "society." You can choose to be attractive to us (which includes you), or not. It just so happens that what we find healthy also happens to be physically attractive, too, so it's a double-whammy of good for anybody who gets healthy.
It is and it isn't. If the society as a whole, all the individual components of society, and biology were all in perfect harmony, then beauty standards would never vary from time to time and place to place, and they do, quite widely. They change over time and across cultures. So yes, "we" are all a part of society but "we" as individuals and subsets of society can and should question the received expectations and standards, especially for things like aesthetics that often *aren't* strongly linked to health. It's a pretty broad stretch to say that all the things we find attractive in our current society are also signs of health. Plenty of them aren't, or aren't necessarily.
Huge swaths of society would tell you that a "healthy tan" is attractive, and they really feel that way, even as we know that there's no such thing as "healthy tanning." And two hundred years ago, those same tans would have been seen as unattractive and very pale complexions were prized- tanning-as-beautiful is a relatively recent development.
Quite low BMIs achieved through unhealthy means like intense restriction, purging, drug use, or exercise bulimia are celebrated in some circles. Likewise, plenty of people will tell you that female body builders and figure competitors in amazing physical health are unattractive to them. In other times and places, permanently mutilated feet, wasp waists from tightlacing, hairline plucking, etc, have all been considered attractive, and have nothing to do with health.
There's a correlation between beauty standards and health- few people find overt signs of disease sexy- but it's not a particularly strong one.0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
You are not implying that feminists should make an effort to not conform by being obese and out of shape on purpose?
It sounds bizarre, but it's not an uncommon claim among haes/fa proponents.0 -
I've struggled my whole life with this, now at age 36 I feel comfortable with myself and my imperfect body. Now I'm starting to get back in shape to prevent health issues and a little vanity always helps. I actually thank Kim Kardashian, J-lo and other beautiful but different body types from whatt used to dominate as being attractive (waif look etc). It's made different shaped women more accepted , not that I need the acceptance but it certainly helps.
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I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.0
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cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
After reading some of the later replies on this thread, I have an afterthought.
Digging into your wording, it seems like you're questioning your own motives (though maybe I'm reading too much into it).
In my mind, if we feel that the dark side of our culture works to undermine women, objectify our bodies, and soften us up to better absorb whack-a-doo marketing messages . . . then ego strength and confidence are subversive to that.
If you want to look a certain way, I don't see a need to agonize over your motives. Just own it. Be confident; pursue your goals. Your way of thinking about it, or your goals themselves, may change over time, and that's fine, too. But you're not talking about a situation where your choices have ethical or material implications for others. Do what you want; why worry about why?0 -
I'm fairly certain you don't know what feminism means.0
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rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There is always a choice. I think that is the point that @rainwater467 was making. The problem comes from being judged as "less than" because her choice was to go the traditional route.
I am a SAHM, as well. I have heard people (other women, mostly, though some men have, as well) make comments regarding mothers who don't work. We are often perceived as being lazy and we are looked down upon for choosing to stay home. My family has taken a financial hit due to my staying home, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. And I don't let anyone else's opinion on the subject bother me.0 -
CoffeeNCardio wrote: »
A Feminist is someone who believes in and strives for equality across the genders. A man is just as capable of being a feminist as a woman. And any feminist who cannot tolerate male allies is not a feminist at all. I am sorry if you have experienced a bad reception in the past for this, cause that's not what feminism is about. Feminists marry men, date men, give birth to men, and in many happy circumstances ARE men.
QF mother f'ing T. Misandy is not feminist. It's sexist, and does not belong in the feminist movement.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
Bitter, much? Now in my 7th decade, I can concur that folks always seem to have an agenda for other folks. Sometimes it is coupled, as with @newmeadow 's remarks, with the idea that the "rightful" wage earners were somehow deprived. Sorry, not buying that particular victim fantasy.
With regard to the question at hand, cultural standards change over time - seems like at present, women are getting to decide for themselves. But are we immune from the larger cultural context? Nope. It's all good, tho.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
The only thing I can agree with here is that most low to middle income families with children are forced to be two-income families just to make ends meet, especially with the cost of daycare nowadays, but that is not the fault of feminism but rather the fault of wages not keeping up with living costs. The rest of your post is just ridiculous and absurd ranting.0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come
Entire courses in economics, politics, debate, and logic could be centered around this post.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
SMH. Makes me wonder how old you are, but of course your profile's all private'n'stuff.
So, I don't know about you, but I've been alive through aaaallllllll that, and paying attention. And no. Not. Just no.
Sure, some silly rhetoric was trumpeted about in the name of feminism. Still yet more nonsense was attributed to feminism by people who liked the (then) status quo really a lot.
Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974. Title IX. An end (more or less) to state coverture laws; an end to arbitrary "protective" laws that protected women from high-wage jobs; no more USA (and 1st world generally) where (with statistically miniscule exceptions) women were not judges, politicians, doctors, the faces you saw on TV talking about important news issues, more.
Yeah, pernicious stuff, modern feminism.0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come
I know, right? I really need to ask him what my body goals should be, too. I'm sure there are evolutionary aspects or similar that I'm just too illogical to have considered properly.0 -
I pretty much just want to be strong and healthy. What it looks like? Meh. But I'm old, so I may be an outlier.
ME TOO!! Well not sure how old is "old" but but I really don't give a rip if my body is up to any "standard"... I want to be strong, healthy and fit so I can enjoy fun things in life. My body is good enough for me if it can do the things I want to do -- ride my horses, go hiking/snowshoeing/dancing, do my farm chores, lift hay bales and feed sacks.
Also want to keep my cardio up in case of zombie apocalypse
But yeah, I'm old(er) (33) and happily married to my man & best friend of 15 years, so attracting a mate isn't a factor for me either.0 -
I consider myself a feminist. I can understand why people would think I'm bowing down to society's views of the perfect body. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference of how people treat me when I weigh more to when I weigh less including my mother.
Growing up, I was always a little bigger than average but still in a healthy BMI range. Because I wasn't a size 0, like my sister, my mother would always tell me outfits looked bad on me and would look better if I lost weight. She made me feel like I was never good enough for anything because I was a size 6.
Even now we're great friends, but 2 years and 33 pounds ago she would never call me and wouldn't come over to talk to me and when I did finally get her on the phone she was always doing something else and acting like talking to me was a huge inconvenience. Maybe it's all in my head, or a weird coincidence but it's weird how much more she calls me and comes over when I'm smaller.
TL;DR I stay thin so my mother will be my friend not because of society.0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
Another old timer here. It' s all about my health. I don't think I've been influenced by societal views. More like high blood pressure and not being able to comfortably get up and down off the floor when I drop something and it rolls under the middle of the bed.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There is always a choice. I think that is the point that @rainwater467 was making. The problem comes from being judged as "less than" because her choice was to go the traditional route.
I am a SAHM, as well. I have heard people (other women, mostly, though some men have, as well) make comments regarding mothers who don't work. We are often perceived as being lazy and we are looked down upon for choosing to stay home. My family has taken a financial hit due to my staying home, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. And I don't let anyone else's opinion on the subject bother me.
Pretty much. In my early working years, I thought staying home to raise your kids for at least a couple years was a thing for more or less everyone. Turns out that in my circles, none of the women could afford it. They've all gone back to work so far - needed the money to support the lives they've chosen for themselves and their families. Was just chatting with a lady working at the store today, going on and on about her sweet little boy and how he's all, hey how come you work on Saturdays? Saturday's are their busy day so she can't stay home. I'm pretty sure she's not working on Saturday rather than succumbing to her son's bribery and buying him more toys because she drank the feminism kool aid. I don't perceive SAHM's as the less thans. Stereotypically, they're the rich ones
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What I look like is way at the bottom of the list of reasons for me to want to lose weight.
That said.
I have the right to look great and feel great without that being a license for others to treat me with disrespect or as an object of sexual attention. Just because I have a big chest and curves does not mean I want every man in sight to try to jump my bones. I've been celibate for the past 17 years with no interest in changing that. Not that I dislike men. I just love being single.
I am a black belt in aikido, I love riding and working with horses and have a active job in animal care. In order to keep up my active life and continue to grow and excel in the things I love to do, I need to be at a healthier weight. As I get older this becomes more and more important. The fact that I will also just overall look better in a pair of jeans is a bonus.
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I find the HAES comments interesting, in that we support women and their choices, except those delusional women who insist on staying at a high body weight. I mean what's the huge difference between a 350lb woman who loses the same 5 lbs over and over again, and a similar weight woman who has accepted her fate and somewhat takes pride in it? Nope, no societal pressures here
Getting and staying fat ultimately was not for me, but HAES actually helped me avoid things like cleanses and appetite suppressants, which IMO tend to abuse the body one may be trying to improve. Until I found a recipe that made sense to me, I was able to confidently say, *kitten* it, I'd rather be fat0
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