Feminists and nonconformists - where do your goals come from?
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ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come
Entire courses in economics, politics, debate, and logic could be centered around this post.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
SMH. Makes me wonder how old you are, but of course your profile's all private'n'stuff.
So, I don't know about you, but I've been alive through aaaallllllll that, and paying attention. And no. Not. Just no.
Sure, some silly rhetoric was trumpeted about in the name of feminism. Still yet more nonsense was attributed to feminism by people who liked the (then) status quo really a lot.
Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974. Title IX. An end (more or less) to state coverture laws; an end to arbitrary "protective" laws that protected women from high-wage jobs; no more USA (and 1st world generally) where (with statistically miniscule exceptions) women were not judges, politicians, doctors, the faces you saw on TV talking about important news issues, more.
Yeah, pernicious stuff, modern feminism.0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There's at least 83 things wrong with this post
I think you're low balling that. By a lot.
That post should be considered a teachable moment and studied by generations to come
I know, right? I really need to ask him what my body goals should be, too. I'm sure there are evolutionary aspects or similar that I'm just too illogical to have considered properly.0 -
I pretty much just want to be strong and healthy. What it looks like? Meh. But I'm old, so I may be an outlier.
ME TOO!! Well not sure how old is "old" but but I really don't give a rip if my body is up to any "standard"... I want to be strong, healthy and fit so I can enjoy fun things in life. My body is good enough for me if it can do the things I want to do -- ride my horses, go hiking/snowshoeing/dancing, do my farm chores, lift hay bales and feed sacks.
Also want to keep my cardio up in case of zombie apocalypse
But yeah, I'm old(er) (33) and happily married to my man & best friend of 15 years, so attracting a mate isn't a factor for me either.0 -
I consider myself a feminist. I can understand why people would think I'm bowing down to society's views of the perfect body. Unfortunately, there is a huge difference of how people treat me when I weigh more to when I weigh less including my mother.
Growing up, I was always a little bigger than average but still in a healthy BMI range. Because I wasn't a size 0, like my sister, my mother would always tell me outfits looked bad on me and would look better if I lost weight. She made me feel like I was never good enough for anything because I was a size 6.
Even now we're great friends, but 2 years and 33 pounds ago she would never call me and wouldn't come over to talk to me and when I did finally get her on the phone she was always doing something else and acting like talking to me was a huge inconvenience. Maybe it's all in my head, or a weird coincidence but it's weird how much more she calls me and comes over when I'm smaller.
TL;DR I stay thin so my mother will be my friend not because of society.0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
Another old timer here. It' s all about my health. I don't think I've been influenced by societal views. More like high blood pressure and not being able to comfortably get up and down off the floor when I drop something and it rolls under the middle of the bed.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
There is always a choice. I think that is the point that @rainwater467 was making. The problem comes from being judged as "less than" because her choice was to go the traditional route.
I am a SAHM, as well. I have heard people (other women, mostly, though some men have, as well) make comments regarding mothers who don't work. We are often perceived as being lazy and we are looked down upon for choosing to stay home. My family has taken a financial hit due to my staying home, but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. And I don't let anyone else's opinion on the subject bother me.
Pretty much. In my early working years, I thought staying home to raise your kids for at least a couple years was a thing for more or less everyone. Turns out that in my circles, none of the women could afford it. They've all gone back to work so far - needed the money to support the lives they've chosen for themselves and their families. Was just chatting with a lady working at the store today, going on and on about her sweet little boy and how he's all, hey how come you work on Saturdays? Saturday's are their busy day so she can't stay home. I'm pretty sure she's not working on Saturday rather than succumbing to her son's bribery and buying him more toys because she drank the feminism kool aid. I don't perceive SAHM's as the less thans. Stereotypically, they're the rich ones
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What I look like is way at the bottom of the list of reasons for me to want to lose weight.
That said.
I have the right to look great and feel great without that being a license for others to treat me with disrespect or as an object of sexual attention. Just because I have a big chest and curves does not mean I want every man in sight to try to jump my bones. I've been celibate for the past 17 years with no interest in changing that. Not that I dislike men. I just love being single.
I am a black belt in aikido, I love riding and working with horses and have a active job in animal care. In order to keep up my active life and continue to grow and excel in the things I love to do, I need to be at a healthier weight. As I get older this becomes more and more important. The fact that I will also just overall look better in a pair of jeans is a bonus.
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I find the HAES comments interesting, in that we support women and their choices, except those delusional women who insist on staying at a high body weight. I mean what's the huge difference between a 350lb woman who loses the same 5 lbs over and over again, and a similar weight woman who has accepted her fate and somewhat takes pride in it? Nope, no societal pressures here
Getting and staying fat ultimately was not for me, but HAES actually helped me avoid things like cleanses and appetite suppressants, which IMO tend to abuse the body one may be trying to improve. Until I found a recipe that made sense to me, I was able to confidently say, *kitten* it, I'd rather be fat0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
SMH. Makes me wonder how old you are, but of course your profile's all private'n'stuff.
So, I don't know about you, but I've been alive through aaaallllllll that, and paying attention. And no. Not. Just no.
Sure, some silly rhetoric was trumpeted about in the name of feminism. Still yet more nonsense was attributed to feminism by people who liked the (then) status quo really a lot.
Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974. Title IX. An end (more or less) to state coverture laws; an end to arbitrary "protective" laws that protected women from high-wage jobs; no more USA (and 1st world generally) where (with statistically miniscule exceptions) women were not judges, politicians, doctors, the faces you saw on TV talking about important news issues, more.
Yeah, pernicious stuff, modern feminism.
Yep. Great things were accomplished by these people who supposedly made all these catastrophic errors. I think a HUGE thank you is in order, and then picking up where they left off in order to fine tune things0 -
I think if you live and see, hear and breathe, everything penetrates into you, there is no self free from this.
Good luck.0 -
I find the HAES comments interesting, in that we support women and their choices, except those delusional women who insist on staying at a high body weight. I mean what's the huge difference between a 350lb woman who loses the same 5 lbs over and over again, and a similar weight woman who has accepted her fate and somewhat takes pride in it? Nope, no societal pressures here
Getting and staying fat ultimately was not for me, but HAES actually helped me avoid things like cleanses and appetite suppressants, which IMO tend to abuse the body one may be trying to improve. Until I found a recipe that made sense to me, I was able to confidently say, *kitten* it, I'd rather be fat
I also agree. While those concepts ended up being a bit of a barrier for me, I still really do struggle with self acceptance and not being very, very mean to myself about my failures in general. I was never exactly confronted with specifically outspoken HAES people, but the idea that size/weight was not an indicator of happiness or success or personal worth I think really helped me while I was growing up, to not be even more self deprecating than I already am.0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
SMH. Makes me wonder how old you are, but of course your profile's all private'n'stuff.
So, I don't know about you, but I've been alive through aaaallllllll that, and paying attention. And no. Not. Just no.
Sure, some silly rhetoric was trumpeted about in the name of feminism. Still yet more nonsense was attributed to feminism by people who liked the (then) status quo really a lot.
Equal Credit Opportunity Act of 1974. Title IX. An end (more or less) to state coverture laws; an end to arbitrary "protective" laws that protected women from high-wage jobs; no more USA (and 1st world generally) where (with statistically miniscule exceptions) women were not judges, politicians, doctors, the faces you saw on TV talking about important news issues, more.
Yeah, pernicious stuff, modern feminism.
^This. I realized, after complaining that society didn't value what I did, as a stay at home mom who raised,grew canned, preserved, etc, that it was me who didn't value what I did. Because for the first time in my life I didn't bring home a "real" pay check. What really is "modern" feminism?0 -
cristalball wrote: »How do you know if you are bowing to society's views and pressures to try to obtain the "ideal" body or if your goals are more internally and personally motivated? Or does it even matter? I ask because I'm not sure for my own goals and was curious about others.
If you're asking others whether your personal rebellion is going in the right direction then you're doing it wrong0 -
There's nothing inconsistent about being a feminist and being thin, fat, average, fit, flabby, unhealthy, healthy, bulked, slender, obese, or skinny.
What's not feminist is to ascribe a woman's value to her conformity with stereotypes or cultural expectations.0 -
SapiensPisces wrote: »
The only thing I can agree with here is that most low to middle income families with children are forced to be two-income families just to make ends meet, especially with the cost of daycare nowadays, but that is not the fault of feminism but rather the fault of wages not keeping up with living costs. The rest of your post is just ridiculous and absurd ranting.
Ah, the crux of the matter. The devil creator of Keynesian economics even said so himself:
"By a continuing process of inflation, governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens. There is no subtler, no surer means of overturning the existing basis of society than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
Oh, but don't worry, inflation will never be correctly reported. Or deflation, for that matter.
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CoffeeNCardio wrote: »As a very outspoken advocate against body-shaming, and a born and bred feminist, I can happily say that it's MY body and I'll make it look however I dam well please. If that happens to mimic societal beauty standards, so be it. I know what I want to look like. I know how I want to feel (energetic and happy). And uterus notwithstanding, I'm perfectly capable of making that decision in spite of the fashion industry.
I also really like clothes I find pretty. I like to feel pretty. I have no issue existing in both spheres and cannot comprehend why I shouldn't.
Being a feminist doesn't mean you have to stop caring what you look like. It means you don't let other people decide that for you. Whether that be some guy saying you're ugly because you don't meet his standard of sexual desirability (cause you are more than a sexual object) or some other woman saying you need to meet standards to be socially acceptable.
Unless it's Kim Kardashian?
When did I ever say anything mean about Kim Kardashian?
ETA: cause I just went over the butt post and I didn't see anything I said with reference to her at all.... also, I didn't think we were taking that post seriously were we? I thought that was mostly a funny ha ha post....0 -
rainwater467 wrote: »I feel like the feminist movement told women that they should work. I wanted to stay home when I had children. I felt like many considered this decision weak. I think women should support each other rather than criticize. Be good to yourself a do what makes you happy.
Yeah thanks neofeminism. Which was promoted in the 1960s by wealthy and educated women who didn't have to work and would be inheriting a bundle. Usually from their daddies. Bad, evil paternalistic structure, huh?
They successfully convinced the female majority - from a vastly less privileged socio/economic niche coincidently - that working full time instead of choosing full time motherhood would be fun and empowering. Who could forget the polyester, shoulder padded chicky business ensembles of the 1980s, complete with ruffled collar?
What they didn't tell us is that doubling the workforce by having women enter it en masse made wages plummet for everyone and cheapened the workplace social culture as a whole. It also drove the market to require bachelor's degrees for jobs that used to only require common sense and competency, thanks to the incredible competition for work. Crippling student debt anyone? Oops.
So now there is no choice for most women who have children. They have to work full time. So how is it gals? Fun and empowering?
Yeah actually, women entered the workforce as a result of stagnating wages, that wasn't the cause, it was the effect. Wages began to stagnate in the early 70's late 60's so women had to enter the workforce in order to make up the difference in the money their husbands were no longer making. It was a result of the wage stagnation, not the cause of it.
The increased demand for bachelor's and other higher education is a result of a massive and very sudden increase in professional level jobs. Again, not caused by women entering the workforce. This one's cause ain't even related. When manufacturing was the biggest career path for people in this country, a bachelor's degree wasn't necessary. In 1970, General Motors employed the largest portion of the workforce and paid what would be equivalent to $50/hr in today's dollars. Today, the largest employer is Wal Mart, which pays on average $8.50/hr in today's dollars. Higher education demand is a result of losing the very jobs you're referring to, like manufacturing jobs that only require common sense, to other countries who can pay their workers significantly less. I think it's a little presumptive to blame women entering the workforce for a natural effect of capitalism when taken to a global community rather than only country wide.
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an interesting discussion but . . .0
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