Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Ultra-processed foods study
Replies
-
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Any term that doesn't have an "official" definition (by that I mean can be found in a dictionary or encyclopedia) is going to be variable from person to person. Heck, even dictionary terms are sometimes hotly debated in these forums.
I would consider most of the things you mention to be ultra-processed with the exception of restaurant food. I think that is too broad a topic to put a stamp on. It's kind of like saying soup or pizza. I have a vague idea of what the food is but I really have no idea about the food contents.
Cool. And some of that food is probably helpful for weight loss/maintenance and some is not.But quite frankly I find trying to fit every food into nice neat little boxes (terms) a tedious endeavor. I take general broad statements to be just that. Non-specific and broad.
Well, agreed, but that's why I argue with claims that "processed foods" make us fat. On the whole I feel like you and I agree more than not (annoying as you may find me), and you and I both think some processed foods are helpful for weight loss, so I think it's odd you support claims that processed food are the tool of the devil or whatever lisawinning4losing is on about.
I think Needs2 was using tool in reference to the definition. That having the term ultra-processed foods to use could avoid the constant arguing about what is processed foods. Instead, we can argue what are ultra-processed foods. I think Needs2 is just happy that washed vegetables seem much harder to wedge into the ultra-processed category.
Bingo! Washed, peeled, chopped, canned, frozen. All the veggies are good.
Unless some big green dude pours salty yellow goo on them he wants us to believe is cheese, then we have a debate.
Well now you're going to get the thread moved to chit-chat.
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »There are a few posts around that insist that people know what others eat based on looking at shopping carts, peaking in windows, etc.
I find this interesting because, in a scientific sense, I don't even know what I eat unless I consult my food logs. Dieticians logging their food even get it wrong by about 25% at first according to at least one study.
When I peek into obese peoples shopping trolleys, with their obese children toddling along behind, I have never once been surprised in what I see. It's usually obvious why they are obese
It must not be obvious to me. Why?
Seriously??? Because the majority of their haul is highly processed junk food, and very little if any whole fresh food. You know... The usual weight gain suspects.
Adults do what you want, but when i see them feeding this stuff to their kids actively contributing to their obesity, it just makes me see red.
so your observation is based on the .000001% of the population that you happen to see on a certain day in the supermarket?
If someone saw me on a day that I ran out of talenti and I am stocking up on five different flavors then they would probably assume I am glutton as well....
Are you obese with obese children??
Not sure what that has to do with anything ...
It was the point of my post... When I see obese people in the grocery store, nearly everyday, the contents in their trolley reflects their weight.
Probably where you live... Where I live, "obese people with obese children" actually have about 80% of their carts in "minimally processed foods" because I live in a culture of home cooking. I'm obese, I've always been MORBIDLY obese, and the amount of processed foods I had from birth till now is probably a one year's worth for someone else somewhere else, obese or not. I probably consume 5 times my previous amount of processed food now that I'm dieting because the packaged calories are convenient. It simply can't be generalized by looking at how people in your neighborhood eat. Obesity is a function of calories, processed or not.
Actually, epidemiology tells us that the consumption of ultra-processed foods is positively associated with the increased prevalence of obesity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667658
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029821
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25804833
Of course this is just correlation, and doesn't mean that highly processed foods are obesogenic per se. But considering that they are, by definition, a nutritionally poor choice, I see no reason to "stand up" for them.
Depends on the definition. (Which is covered in earlier posts in this thread or maybe the other ultraprocessed food thread--I only recently realized there were two separate ones.)
the study mentioned in the OP has a pretty clear definition:
"Ultra-processed foods were defined as industrial formulations which, besides salt, sugar, oils and fats, include substances not used in culinary preparations, in particular additives used to imitate sensorial qualities of minimally processed foods and their culinary preparations" so, yes, definitely nutritionally poor.
So could you answer my specific questions? I want to know if I eat ultra processed foods or not!
do you mean Enginerd's question?
0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
Also, I think someone pointed out that bread = not ultra processed under the definition being used and pancakes = ultra processed which is weird given that I rarely bother to make bread (I don't like it enough) but eat it in the context of healthy (IMO) restaurant options, but do make pancakes from scratch or from high quality ingredients. I don't think the pancakes are in reality more processed.
I agree with this. Bread and pancakes don't really give much descriptions as to ingredients. Personally I look more at the flour and additives to determine if foods made from flour are 'ultra-processed'. Are the germ and bran removed or included with the grain? What ingredients are included other than flour and what are those ingredients?0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
Also, I think someone pointed out that bread = not ultra processed under the definition being used and pancakes = ultra processed which is weird given that I rarely bother to make bread (I don't like it enough) but eat it in the context of healthy (IMO) restaurant options, but do make pancakes from scratch or from high quality ingredients. I don't think the pancakes are in reality more processed.
I agree with this. Bread and pancakes don't really give much descriptions as to ingredients. Personally I look more at the flour and additives to determine if foods made from flour are 'ultra-processed'. Are the germ and bran removed or included with the grain? What ingredients are included other than flour and what are those ingredients?
So anything with refined flour = ultra processed (even if made at home). And anything with whole grain flour = processed but not ultra processed. Makes sense to me, but is this how the definition actually works?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
I know I could look it up, but do you mind posting the definition for discussion?
Here is the detailed description:Formulated mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods or other organic sources. Typically contain little or no whole foods. Durable, convenient, accessible, highly or ultra-palatable, often habit-forming. Typically not recognizable as versions of foods, although may imitate the appearance, shape and sensory qualities of foods.
Many ingredients not available in retail outlets. Some ingredients directly derived from foods, such as oils, fats,
flours, starches and sugar. Others obtained by further processing of food constituents or synthesized from other organic sources. Numerically the majority of ingredients are preservatives; stabilizers, emulsifiers, solvents, binders, bulkers; sweeteners, sensory enhancers, colours and flavours; processing aids and other additives. Bulk may come from added air or water. Micronutrients may ‘fortify’ the products. Most are designed to be consumed by themselves or in combination as snacks. Processes include hydrogenation, hydrolysis; extruding, moulding, re-shaping; pre-processing by frying, baking
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
I know I could look it up, but do you mind posting the definition for discussion?
Here is the detailed description:Formulated mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods or other organic sources. Typically contain little or no whole foods. Durable, convenient, accessible, highly or ultra-palatable, often habit-forming. Typically not recognizable as versions of foods, although may imitate the appearance, shape and sensory qualities of foods.
Many ingredients not available in retail outlets. Some ingredients directly derived from foods, such as oils, fats,
flours, starches and sugar. Others obtained by further processing of food constituents or synthesized from other organic sources. Numerically the majority of ingredients are preservatives; stabilizers, emulsifiers, solvents, binders, bulkers; sweeteners, sensory enhancers, colours and flavours; processing aids and other additives. Bulk may come from added air or water. Micronutrients may ‘fortify’ the products. Most are designed to be consumed by themselves or in combination as snacks. Processes include hydrogenation, hydrolysis; extruding, moulding, re-shaping; pre-processing by frying, baking
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
So now we're back to the cooking with Heisenberg and MacGuyver arguments?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
I know I could look it up, but do you mind posting the definition for discussion?
Here is the detailed description:Formulated mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods or other organic sources. Typically contain little or no whole foods. Durable, convenient, accessible, highly or ultra-palatable, often habit-forming. Typically not recognizable as versions of foods, although may imitate the appearance, shape and sensory qualities of foods.
Many ingredients not available in retail outlets. Some ingredients directly derived from foods, such as oils, fats,
flours, starches and sugar. Others obtained by further processing of food constituents or synthesized from other organic sources. Numerically the majority of ingredients are preservatives; stabilizers, emulsifiers, solvents, binders, bulkers; sweeteners, sensory enhancers, colours and flavours; processing aids and other additives. Bulk may come from added air or water. Micronutrients may ‘fortify’ the products. Most are designed to be consumed by themselves or in combination as snacks. Processes include hydrogenation, hydrolysis; extruding, moulding, re-shaping; pre-processing by frying, baking
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
What is the source of this description?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Any term that doesn't have an "official" definition (by that I mean can be found in a dictionary or encyclopedia) is going to be variable from person to person. Heck, even dictionary terms are sometimes hotly debated in these forums.
I would consider most of the things you mention to be ultra-processed with the exception of restaurant food. I think that is too broad a topic to put a stamp on. It's kind of like saying soup or pizza. I have a vague idea of what the food is but I really have no idea about the food contents.
Cool. And some of that food is probably helpful for weight loss/maintenance and some is not.But quite frankly I find trying to fit every food into nice neat little boxes (terms) a tedious endeavor. I take general broad statements to be just that. Non-specific and broad.
Well, agreed, but that's why I argue with claims that "processed foods" make us fat. On the whole I feel like you and I agree more than not (annoying as you may find me), and you and I both think some processed foods are helpful for weight loss, so I think it's odd you support claims that processed food are the tool of the devil or whatever lisawinning4losing is on about.
I think Needs2 was using tool in reference to the definition. That having the term ultra-processed foods to use could avoid the constant arguing about what is processed foods. Instead, we can argue what are ultra-processed foods. I think Needs2 is just happy that washed vegetables seem much harder to wedge into the ultra-processed category.
Bingo! Washed, peeled, chopped, canned, frozen. All the veggies are good.
Unless some big green dude pours salty yellow goo on them he wants us to believe is cheese, then we have a debate.
Well, unless one is Gale or ketomom, who think all carbs are evil. I understand that in the low carb forum a "carnivore" diet is promoted, which is whackadoo. (Yeah, my cats are on a carnivore diet since -- unlike humans -- they are carnivores.)
Agreed. Very whackadoo. I did not mean to imply that only veggies are good.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lisawinning4losing wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Processed foods isn't scary enough, so a new term needed to be invented?
I've seen numerous posts on MFP use the term "ultra processed food" or ask that others use it. And since some members insist that things like frozen vegetables are "processed food" I think it is a needed term.
I'm pretty surprised that only 60% of calories come from ultra processed foods. I would have guess higher.
People say that frozen vegetables are "processed" as an argumentative tool, because they don't want to admit that processed foods are causing disease, even though it's pretty clear that they are.
I think this is probably true many times. But, by using a term ultra-processed instead of processed we could take that tool from them.
If people would just define terms at the beginning, it would be helpful. Much as I disagree with your "clean eating" thing, I like that I understand (to some degree) what you mean by it and where you are coming from (and that you are not all or nothing).
I am confused by the term "ultra processed" too, but I think it has potential and is less broad than processed (which does include many standard things like frozen veg and cottage cheese, that I used to avoid when weird about eating natural, but which I think are helpful for someone trying to eat a more nutritious or weight loss oriented diet).
With ultra processed, I'm curious how high quality restaurant meals, the frozen paleo or BB meals discussed upthread, and some vegan staples like tempeh or seitan fit in. And I don't see how protein powder isn't ultra processed.
Also, if store bought ice cream that doesn't contain lots of additives would still be ultra processed (or bakery baked goods) -- and they both contribute to easy weight gain due to availability of high cal foods, IMO -- then how are home baked baked goods different? It seems weird to call a home baked pie "ultra processed," but of course it is high cal and has ingredients like processed sugar (any sucrose is) and refined flour and butter.
Ultra-processed has a known and clear definition: foods that contain items that are generally derived from foods in a way that changes the structure of the food (example hydrogenation) or synthesized in labs in an industrial setting (example artificial flavors) in a way that is hard for a home user to replicate. Where it gets murky is when someone says "processed" and lumps in whatever they see fit into that category without any rules then calls it bad. Frozen vegetables are actually considered processed, but they are called "minimally processed".
Protein powder is definitely ultra processed. Canned foods and bread are plain old "processed".
I know I could look it up, but do you mind posting the definition for discussion?
Here is the detailed description:Formulated mostly or entirely from substances derived from foods or other organic sources. Typically contain little or no whole foods. Durable, convenient, accessible, highly or ultra-palatable, often habit-forming. Typically not recognizable as versions of foods, although may imitate the appearance, shape and sensory qualities of foods.
Many ingredients not available in retail outlets. Some ingredients directly derived from foods, such as oils, fats,
flours, starches and sugar. Others obtained by further processing of food constituents or synthesized from other organic sources. Numerically the majority of ingredients are preservatives; stabilizers, emulsifiers, solvents, binders, bulkers; sweeteners, sensory enhancers, colours and flavours; processing aids and other additives. Bulk may come from added air or water. Micronutrients may ‘fortify’ the products. Most are designed to be consumed by themselves or in combination as snacks. Processes include hydrogenation, hydrolysis; extruding, moulding, re-shaping; pre-processing by frying, baking
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
What is the source of this description?
NOVA Food definition and classification system. An attempt at standardizing food classification for research purposes.
I personally don't see these foods as inherently bad, but it's useful to know what studies are studying when they present statistics.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.0 -
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.0 -
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.0 -
This study is great. Thanks for adding it.0
-
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.
I already discount anything uttered by the FoodBabe, now you are telling me that I'm supposed to adhere to definitions that her 8 year old kid uses?0 -
Heh!0
-
WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.
I already discount anything uttered by the FoodBabe, now you are telling me that I'm supposed to adhere to definitions that her 8 year old kid uses?
Apparently, though, she doesn't claim to have come up with it, though she's said it a lot of times:
Source: the SciBabe because I refuse to give her more clicks. Best I could do.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added
they do ? "Ingredients: Potatoes, Sunflower Oil - Gluten free. No artificial colours or flavours, no hydrogenated fats." to quote one major brand (McCain's). Then there's a more processed own label version - "Ingredients:
Potato (88%), Sunflower Oil, Wheat Flour, Modified Potato Starch, Rice Flour, Salt, Corn Starch, Spice Extracts (Paprika, Turmeric)"
I think the first isn't ultraprocessed, whereas the second is (the starches, for example). So while the definition seems ok, the examples maybe weren't the best.
Similarly chips can be simple - like Ready Salted "Potatoes, Sunflower Oil (26%), Rapeseed Oil, Cheshire Salt." or flavoured with ultraprocessed additives - "Potatoes, Sunflower Oil (25%), Rapeseed Oil, Cheese & Onion Seasoning. Cheese & Onion Seasoning contains: Dried Onion, Salt, Dried Milk Whey, Dried Milk Lactose, Sugar, Flavourings, Cheddar Cheese Powder (From Milk), Dried Garlic, Colours (Paprika Extract, Annatto)."
0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »There are a few posts around that insist that people know what others eat based on looking at shopping carts, peaking in windows, etc.
I find this interesting because, in a scientific sense, I don't even know what I eat unless I consult my food logs. Dieticians logging their food even get it wrong by about 25% at first according to at least one study.
When I peek into obese peoples shopping trolleys, with their obese children toddling along behind, I have never once been surprised in what I see. It's usually obvious why they are obese
It must not be obvious to me. Why?
Seriously??? Because the majority of their haul is highly processed junk food, and very little if any whole fresh food. You know... The usual weight gain suspects.
Adults do what you want, but when i see them feeding this stuff to their kids actively contributing to their obesity, it just makes me see red.
so your observation is based on the .000001% of the population that you happen to see on a certain day in the supermarket?
If someone saw me on a day that I ran out of talenti and I am stocking up on five different flavors then they would probably assume I am glutton as well....
Are you obese with obese children??
Not sure what that has to do with anything ...
It was the point of my post... When I see obese people in the grocery store, nearly everyday, the contents in their trolley reflects their weight.
Probably where you live... Where I live, "obese people with obese children" actually have about 80% of their carts in "minimally processed foods" because I live in a culture of home cooking. I'm obese, I've always been MORBIDLY obese, and the amount of processed foods I had from birth till now is probably a one year's worth for someone else somewhere else, obese or not. I probably consume 5 times my previous amount of processed food now that I'm dieting because the packaged calories are convenient. It simply can't be generalized by looking at how people in your neighborhood eat. Obesity is a function of calories, processed or not.
Actually, epidemiology tells us that the consumption of ultra-processed foods is positively associated with the increased prevalence of obesity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667658
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029821
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25804833
Of course this is just correlation, and doesn't mean that highly processed foods are obesogenic per se. But considering that they are, by definition, a nutritionally poor choice, I see no reason to "stand up" for them.
Depends on the definition. (Which is covered in earlier posts in this thread or maybe the other ultraprocessed food thread--I only recently realized there were two separate ones.)
the study mentioned in the OP has a pretty clear definition:
"Ultra-processed foods were defined as industrial formulations which, besides salt, sugar, oils and fats, include substances not used in culinary preparations, in particular additives used to imitate sensorial qualities of minimally processed foods and their culinary preparations" so, yes, definitely nutritionally poor.
So could you answer my specific questions? I want to know if I eat ultra processed foods or not!
do you mean Enginerd's question?
No.0 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.
I already discount anything uttered by the FoodBabe, now you are telling me that I'm supposed to adhere to definitions that her 8 year old kid uses?
Apparently, though, she doesn't claim to have come up with it, though she's said it a lot of times:
Source: the SciBabe because I refuse to give her more clicks. Best I could do.
Oh, how sad that it became "ingredients you can't pronounce". Like people just assume they aren't smarter than a 3rd grader. Well that little joke just went south quickly. 0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.
I already discount anything uttered by the FoodBabe, now you are telling me that I'm supposed to adhere to definitions that her 8 year old kid uses?
Apparently, though, she doesn't claim to have come up with it, though she's said it a lot of times:
Source: the SciBabe because I refuse to give her more clicks. Best I could do.
Oh, how sad that it became "ingredients you can't pronounce". Like people just assume they aren't smarter than a 3rd grader. Well that little joke just went south quickly.
I know. It is really feels like they are preying on people's feelings of inadequacy concerning the sciences.
0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added
they do ? "Ingredients: Potatoes, Sunflower Oil - Gluten free. No artificial colours or flavours, no hydrogenated fats." to quote one major brand (McCain's). Then there's a more processed own label version - "Ingredients:
Potato (88%), Sunflower Oil, Wheat Flour, Modified Potato Starch, Rice Flour, Salt, Corn Starch, Spice Extracts (Paprika, Turmeric)"
I think the first isn't ultraprocessed, whereas the second is (the starches, for example). So while the definition seems ok, the examples maybe weren't the best.
Similarly chips can be simple - like Ready Salted "Potatoes, Sunflower Oil (26%), Rapeseed Oil, Cheshire Salt." or flavoured with ultraprocessed additives - "Potatoes, Sunflower Oil (25%), Rapeseed Oil, Cheese & Onion Seasoning. Cheese & Onion Seasoning contains: Dried Onion, Salt, Dried Milk Whey, Dried Milk Lactose, Sugar, Flavourings, Cheddar Cheese Powder (From Milk), Dried Garlic, Colours (Paprika Extract, Annatto)."
Yes, it's hard to be inclusive of all products or to exclude attempt to exclude individual products. I think it's assumed the products meet the definition above the examples. In my little greek yogurt joke a few posts back you can see in comparison that although both products are "greek yogurt" one would fit the definition of ultra processed and one wouldn't.0 -
Which is so silly.0
-
amusedmonkey wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »There are a few posts around that insist that people know what others eat based on looking at shopping carts, peaking in windows, etc.
I find this interesting because, in a scientific sense, I don't even know what I eat unless I consult my food logs. Dieticians logging their food even get it wrong by about 25% at first according to at least one study.
When I peek into obese peoples shopping trolleys, with their obese children toddling along behind, I have never once been surprised in what I see. It's usually obvious why they are obese
It must not be obvious to me. Why?
Seriously??? Because the majority of their haul is highly processed junk food, and very little if any whole fresh food. You know... The usual weight gain suspects.
Adults do what you want, but when i see them feeding this stuff to their kids actively contributing to their obesity, it just makes me see red.
so your observation is based on the .000001% of the population that you happen to see on a certain day in the supermarket?
If someone saw me on a day that I ran out of talenti and I am stocking up on five different flavors then they would probably assume I am glutton as well....
Are you obese with obese children??
Not sure what that has to do with anything ...
It was the point of my post... When I see obese people in the grocery store, nearly everyday, the contents in their trolley reflects their weight.
Probably where you live... Where I live, "obese people with obese children" actually have about 80% of their carts in "minimally processed foods" because I live in a culture of home cooking. I'm obese, I've always been MORBIDLY obese, and the amount of processed foods I had from birth till now is probably a one year's worth for someone else somewhere else, obese or not. I probably consume 5 times my previous amount of processed food now that I'm dieting because the packaged calories are convenient. It simply can't be generalized by looking at how people in your neighborhood eat. Obesity is a function of calories, processed or not.
Actually, epidemiology tells us that the consumption of ultra-processed foods is positively associated with the increased prevalence of obesity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667658
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029821
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25804833
Of course this is just correlation, and doesn't mean that highly processed foods are obesogenic per se. But considering that they are, by definition, a nutritionally poor choice, I see no reason to "stand up" for them.
Depends on the definition. (Which is covered in earlier posts in this thread or maybe the other ultraprocessed food thread--I only recently realized there were two separate ones.)
the study mentioned in the OP has a pretty clear definition:
"Ultra-processed foods were defined as industrial formulations which, besides salt, sugar, oils and fats, include substances not used in culinary preparations, in particular additives used to imitate sensorial qualities of minimally processed foods and their culinary preparations" so, yes, definitely nutritionally poor.
There's nothing in that statement that means the foods are nutritionally poor.
Where does my Greek yogurt fall in their category?
It also has Nitrogen. The Food babe told me they pump it into planes, and now they are putting it right into foods!
Yes. This is ultra processed. On top of that it has nitrogen. You're gonna die and I'm not. My yogurt is better than yours!
9% fat?! Do they add extra cream to the milk? Pure cow milk is around 4% IIRC.0 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »9% fat?! Do they add extra cream to the milk? Pure cow milk is around 4% IIRC.
they pour away (no pun intended) the acid whey, so the concentration will rise from that in the milk.0 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Gianfranco_R wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »There are a few posts around that insist that people know what others eat based on looking at shopping carts, peaking in windows, etc.
I find this interesting because, in a scientific sense, I don't even know what I eat unless I consult my food logs. Dieticians logging their food even get it wrong by about 25% at first according to at least one study.
When I peek into obese peoples shopping trolleys, with their obese children toddling along behind, I have never once been surprised in what I see. It's usually obvious why they are obese
It must not be obvious to me. Why?
Seriously??? Because the majority of their haul is highly processed junk food, and very little if any whole fresh food. You know... The usual weight gain suspects.
Adults do what you want, but when i see them feeding this stuff to their kids actively contributing to their obesity, it just makes me see red.
so your observation is based on the .000001% of the population that you happen to see on a certain day in the supermarket?
If someone saw me on a day that I ran out of talenti and I am stocking up on five different flavors then they would probably assume I am glutton as well....
Are you obese with obese children??
Not sure what that has to do with anything ...
It was the point of my post... When I see obese people in the grocery store, nearly everyday, the contents in their trolley reflects their weight.
Probably where you live... Where I live, "obese people with obese children" actually have about 80% of their carts in "minimally processed foods" because I live in a culture of home cooking. I'm obese, I've always been MORBIDLY obese, and the amount of processed foods I had from birth till now is probably a one year's worth for someone else somewhere else, obese or not. I probably consume 5 times my previous amount of processed food now that I'm dieting because the packaged calories are convenient. It simply can't be generalized by looking at how people in your neighborhood eat. Obesity is a function of calories, processed or not.
Actually, epidemiology tells us that the consumption of ultra-processed foods is positively associated with the increased prevalence of obesity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667658
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20029821
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25804833
Of course this is just correlation, and doesn't mean that highly processed foods are obesogenic per se. But considering that they are, by definition, a nutritionally poor choice, I see no reason to "stand up" for them.
Depends on the definition. (Which is covered in earlier posts in this thread or maybe the other ultraprocessed food thread--I only recently realized there were two separate ones.)
the study mentioned in the OP has a pretty clear definition:
"Ultra-processed foods were defined as industrial formulations which, besides salt, sugar, oils and fats, include substances not used in culinary preparations, in particular additives used to imitate sensorial qualities of minimally processed foods and their culinary preparations" so, yes, definitely nutritionally poor.
There's nothing in that statement that means the foods are nutritionally poor.
Where does my Greek yogurt fall in their category?
It also has Nitrogen. The Food babe told me they pump it into planes, and now they are putting it right into foods!
Yes. This is ultra processed. On top of that it has nitrogen. You're gonna die and I'm not. My yogurt is better than yours!
9% fat?! Do they add extra cream to the milk? Pure cow milk is around 4% IIRC.
Greek yogurt is basically regular yogurt that is strained. It loses some of its whey but most of the fat remains intact. We also make it at home and typically buy 3 kg of milk to get about 1 kg of greek yogurt.0 -
I'm not sure what to make of that, given I was overweight and yet highly capable of pronouncing and reading many things in 3rd grade.Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
Now does it matter which animal is trying to do the pronunciation?Need2Exerc1se wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »
Examples include: Chips (crisps), many types of sweet, fatty or salty snack products; ice cream, chocolates, candies (confectionery); French fries (chips), massmanufactured burgers and hot dogs; poultry and fish ‘nuggets’ or ‘sticks’ (‘fingers’); massmanufactured breads, buns, cookies (biscuits); breakfast cereals; pastries, cakes, cake mixes; ‘energy’ bars; preserves (jams), margarines; desserts; canned, bottled, dehydrated, packaged soups, noodles; sauces; meat, yeast extracts; soft, carbonated, cola, ‘energy’ drinks; sugared, sweetened milk drinks, condensed milk, sweetened including ‘fruit’ yoghurts; fruit and fruit ‘nectar’ drinks; instant coffee, cocoa drinks; no-alcohol wine or beer; pre-prepared meat, fish, vegetable, cheese, pizza, pasta dishes; infant formulas, follow-on milks, other baby products; ‘health’, ‘slimming’ products such as powdered or ‘fortified’ meal and dish substitutes.
Basically anything mass manufactured with lots of industrial ingredients prepared using industrial methods that can't be easily replicated at home.
I've been round large processing plants making the highlighted potato products, nothing they did wasn't achievable with a sharp knife and a frying pan although that wasn't the way they actually did it.
Lots of frozen French fries have those pesky unpronounceable chemicals added, and plain potato chips are easily made at home but not so much many other chips/crisps such as Cheetos or Ranch Doritos.
I think this is a decent enough list. It would be impossible to make a list that fit every example. For example, what if my "sauce" is simply a fresh salsa I made from scratch using vegetables from my garden? I doubt many would consider that ultra-processed but when I see sauces on this list the salsa isn't what I imagine they meant.
I believe the standard is an average 5th grader. At least in the US, I'm not sure about other countries.
According to the FoodBabe, and I'm assuming it's supposed to be global, it's her 8 year old (US 3rd grade).
Because we should all make decisions based on the knowledge of a 3rd grader.0 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »9% fat?! Do they add extra cream to the milk? Pure cow milk is around 4% IIRC.
they pour away (no pun intended) the acid whey, so the concentration will rise from that in the milk.
But dem gainz!0 -
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions