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Keto and carb source question

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  • auddiiauddii Posts: 15,410Member Member Posts: 15,410Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.
    or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?

    I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.

    Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.

    When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.

    Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.

    I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.

    LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.

    LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me :wink:

    That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. :wink: :wink: Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.

    In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.

    You and my experience would be different then. I enjoy being around curious and educated people. And those who run 20 to 40 miles a week would be people who I would listen to about their experiences. But different strokes for different folks. I'm also incredibly knowledgeable about ketosis and my experience is the same as those runners about the preferred fuel. It's fine for short miles, but not for anything with decent mileage, etc. You mentioned 3 miles in your above post...exactly.

    Interesting. I recently read a spread in Runners World where a distance runner experimented with low carb. She had the exact same experience as me: sustained energy with no wall. She gave it up afterward though because the diet was too restrictive for her, but her experience and writing seemed pretty unbiased.

    Here ya go!
    http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner

    Her words:

    I loved the steady supply of energy that fat adaptation gave me, and I’m the leanest I’ve been in several years. But I missed drinking beers with friends and polishing off midnight pizzas with my husband. I hated feeling guilty about grapes. And I pined for cake. A lot.

    Here's another you might be interested in.

    As I’ve mentioned, I’ve been living in this world for several years now. I’ve raced 14 ultramarathons on a Low Carb/High Fat diet and I have started most of these races in the fasted state. I’ve won 5 of these ranging from 70km to 200km in length. Doing this has taught me a lot . Far more than I have read or studied. Imagine turning up to a 200km ultramarathon without carb loading, without eating breakfast, without sports drinks or electrolytes, without my gram’s of CHO/hr calculated or “hydration” needs calculated … in fact, without doing what most of the books tell you to do or without what my qualifications had taught me ? I have lost a lot of skin mind you and put myself in a box on a few occasions. But this is how you really learn about the body, as if you don’t figure out how to get yourself out of the box, than you are really screwed. The information helps of course, and the theories can be help the comprehension but the doing at this extreme is where you get to understand things.

    Human Performance & Skin in the Game

    So, lchf prevents dehydration as well, or is this just spin on going into a race unprepared?
  • stealthqstealthq Posts: 4,307Member Member Posts: 4,307Member Member
    auddii wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    N200lz wrote: »
    High carb would be counterproductive. The Idea behind endurance athletes going down the ketosis path is to switch from a carb based energy system (2,000 cal max.) over to a fat based energy system (20,000 cal plus.)
    The jury is still out on that one, but I believe that the anticipated metabolic advantage of a low carb diet (for those that believe that one exists) is expected to be closer to 1000 calories.
    or are you saying that the person would have more energy available (in the form of stored fat) to sustain the effort?

    I know that was my experience with distance running when I switched to the ketogenic diet. Instead of hitting that wall toward the end of my run, feeling like I was pushing so hard those last few miles, like my reserves were just about empty, that feeling completely disappeared. There was no wall, there was no fatigue or hunger afterward. I literally felt no signal to stop and rest except maybe my joints getting worn out. It really amazed me. I have seen evidence that fat metabolism (being in ketosis) actually increases the number of mitochondria in your cells. Apparently fat metabolism is easier for the mitochondria, it creates less oxidative stress, and it inhibits cellular apoptosis (programmed death). Most of this research is related to fasting and increased longevity in animal studies. However it works, my experience is that it works incredibly well.

    Just FYI to others in the thread. My experience was the opposite. I can run fueled by carbs and could easily run a half marathon without fueling. Felt great afterwards.

    When I am running keto...anything after mile 7 or 8 and I hit a wall. Everything feels like garbage and I want to stop.

    Just wanted to share my anecdotal evidence to contrast with what was shared above. I'll also say that the running group I frequent...who almost everyone in it has completed a marathon (brats, right?) that carbs are absolutely the ideal fuel for them.

    I've been running since 8th grade and got most of my first nutrition advice from Jeff Galloway's book. He was all about eating carbs and limiting fat. I remember his rationale. More calories per gram in fat, it gets stored immediately while you're body uses more energy to breakdown and store the protein and carbohydrates. Seemed reasonable to me at the time (as I knew very little then about nutrition), but it's outdated advice now. Running on fat is very different; however, it can take weeks to get over the keto flu and get fat-adapted enough to experience it fully. Running or any kind of exercise in early ketosis is very difficult.

    LOL. I was 6 months keto when I was running on fat.

    LOL. I was probably 2 months in at that point. Over 3 yrs later and still going strong. Last time I timed anything, I ran 3 miles in 21 min. I know that's faster than I ran 3 miles in high school, so something is working for me :wink:

    That's great. Doesn't change how carb running is absolutely better for me and keto running for longer distances gets me to hit a wall. :wink: :wink: Most serious runners I know....agree, but glad keto running works for you.

    In my experience, most serious runners as well as most people have no idea about the benefits of ketosis let alone what it is.

    You and my experience would be different then. I enjoy being around curious and educated people. And those who run 20 to 40 miles a week would be people who I would listen to about their experiences. But different strokes for different folks. I'm also incredibly knowledgeable about ketosis and my experience is the same as those runners about the preferred fuel. It's fine for short miles, but not for anything with decent mileage, etc. You mentioned 3 miles in your above post...exactly.

    Interesting. I recently read a spread in Runners World where a distance runner experimented with low carb. She had the exact same experience as me: sustained energy with no wall. She gave it up afterward though because the diet was too restrictive for her, but her experience and writing seemed pretty unbiased.

    Here ya go!
    http://www.runnersworld.com/diet/can-eating-more-fat-make-you-a-better-runner

    Her words:

    I loved the steady supply of energy that fat adaptation gave me, and I’m the leanest I’ve been in several years. But I missed drinking beers with friends and polishing off midnight pizzas with my husband. I hated feeling guilty about grapes. And I pined for cake. A lot.

    Here's another you might be interested in.

    As I’ve mentioned, I’ve been living in this world for several years now. I’ve raced 14 ultramarathons on a Low Carb/High Fat diet and I have started most of these races in the fasted state. I’ve won 5 of these ranging from 70km to 200km in length. Doing this has taught me a lot . Far more than I have read or studied. Imagine turning up to a 200km ultramarathon without carb loading, without eating breakfast, without sports drinks or electrolytes, without my gram’s of CHO/hr calculated or “hydration” needs calculated … in fact, without doing what most of the books tell you to do or without what my qualifications had taught me ? I have lost a lot of skin mind you and put myself in a box on a few occasions. But this is how you really learn about the body, as if you don’t figure out how to get yourself out of the box, than you are really screwed. The information helps of course, and the theories can be help the comprehension but the doing at this extreme is where you get to understand things.

    Human Performance & Skin in the Game

    So, lchf prevents dehydration as well, or is this just spin on going into a race unprepared?

    Looks like going into races and training in 'out of the box' ways to see what works and what doesn't - theory vs practice. He mentions earlier putting himself through quite a bit of hurt and harm on this diet with the training he chose to do - which is not to say a more carb heavy diet would have fared better.

    I also notice that although this guy says he's knowledgeable about cellular biology, etc, he misuses the phrase 'positive feedback loop'. Might be a just a brain fart - what he describes is actually a negative feedback loop. I'm surprised he didn't catch it though, if that is the case. Positive feedback loops are unusual outside of developmental networks which is not at all what he was discussing.
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    All the friends I run with and races we run in together are all about getting energy from food. Carbs are beautiful. I think you are mistaken about the benefits of ketosis.

    Carbs are beautiful. Blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, yum! I love me some carbs on the ketogenic diet <3

    But you are talking of a minuscule amount of carbs. Big difference.

    Yep. Especially when you are doing long distance running. When I am running 10+ miles....I would have to fuel my body and if needed to eat keto....the amount of fat that I would have to eat. Ugh.

    I think you misunderstand what a ketogenic diet looks like. When one's body is efficient at fat metabolism, you have your entire store of body fat immediately available to burn as energy. It's more than enough for hundreds and hundreds miles. If you don't want to lose body fat, sure you have to eat back your exercise calories... but you increase all your macro-nutrients in the same proportion. It's not like you'd be spooning pure fat into your mouth. You'd just choose of the same low carb, high fat foods. The only way I add pure fat to my diet is when it's used for cooking, cream in my coffee or dessert, and a few tsp of cod liver oil as a supplement. Who ever complained about eating more food?
  • HornsbyHornsby Posts: 10,372Member Member Posts: 10,372Member Member
    I already eat 3600 to maintain. I'm already 7% body fat. (While eating 40-50% of my diet in carbs, mind you). The idea of adding even more keto friendly foods doesn't sound appealing to me. So now you have met one who would complain...
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    shell1005 wrote: »
    shell1005 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    All the friends I run with and races we run in together are all about getting energy from food. Carbs are beautiful. I think you are mistaken about the benefits of ketosis.

    Carbs are beautiful. Blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, yum! I love me some carbs on the ketogenic diet <3

    But you are talking of a minuscule amount of carbs. Big difference.

    Yep. Especially when you are doing long distance running. When I am running 10+ miles....I would have to fuel my body and if needed to eat keto....the amount of fat that I would have to eat. Ugh.

    I think you misunderstand what a ketogenic diet looks like. When one's body is efficient at fat metabolism, you have your entire store of body fat immediately available to burn as energy. It's more than enough for hundreds and hundreds miles. If you don't want to lose body fat, sure you have to eat back your exercise calories... but you increase all your macro-nutrients in the same proportion. It's not like you'd be spooning pure fat into your mouth. You'd just choose of the same low carb, high fat foods. The only way I add pure fat to my diet is when it's used for cooking, cream in my coffee or dessert, and a few tsp of cod liver oil as a supplement. Who ever complained about eating more food?

    I misunderstand nada, but thanks.

    And to assume no one complains about eating more food. Wow. Amazing. Not shocked.

    Oh really? I guess it's only about eating more fat. Ugh.
  • sijomialsijomial Posts: 15,529Member Member Posts: 15,529Member Member
    Poor OP - yet another thread derailed.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    All the friends I run with and races we run in together are all about getting energy from food. Carbs are beautiful. I think you are mistaken about the benefits of ketosis.

    Carbs are beautiful. Blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, yum! I love me some carbs on the ketogenic diet <3

    But you are talking of a minuscule amount of carbs. Big difference.

    Actually no, I can eat far more food than I would if it was higher carb. I never go hungry, and I eat what I want. 1/4 cup of walnuts has 2 net carbs. 1 cup of blueberries has 13 net carbs. Cover than with some heavy cream. I'm so full, I can't imagine anyone would need to eat more. Low carb real foods are incredibly satisfying.

    She didn't say minuscule amount of food, she said minuscule amount of carbs.

    I don't find fat filling at all, so don't believe I would find a keto diet "incredibly satisfying," although I think it's great for those who do (the thought of eating 70-80% of my calories from fat seems like torture to me, and I quite like fat and wish I found it more filling). But you were responding to something not said.
  • snikkinssnikkins Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    All the friends I run with and races we run in together are all about getting energy from food. Carbs are beautiful. I think you are mistaken about the benefits of ketosis.

    Carbs are beautiful. Blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, yum! I love me some carbs on the ketogenic diet <3

    But you are talking of a minuscule amount of carbs. Big difference.

    Actually no, I can eat far more food than I would if it was higher carb. I never go hungry, and I eat what I want. 1/4 cup of walnuts has 2 net carbs. 1 cup of blueberries has 13 net carbs. Cover than with some heavy cream. I'm so full, I can't imagine anyone would need to eat more. Low carb real foods are incredibly satisfying.

    She didn't say minuscule amount of food, she said minuscule amount of carbs.

    I don't find fat filling at all, so don't believe I would find a keto diet "incredibly satisfying," although I think it's great for those who do (the thought of eating 70-80% of my calories from fat seems like torture to me, and I quite like fat and wish I found it more filling). But you were responding to something not said.

    Agreed on the eating that much fat would be torture. It works for some people and I sometimes don't understand why it cannot be left at that.
  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    All the friends I run with and races we run in together are all about getting energy from food. Carbs are beautiful. I think you are mistaken about the benefits of ketosis.

    Carbs are beautiful. Blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, yum! I love me some carbs on the ketogenic diet <3

    But you are talking of a minuscule amount of carbs. Big difference.

    Actually no, I can eat far more food than I would if it was higher carb. I never go hungry, and I eat what I want. 1/4 cup of walnuts has 2 net carbs. 1 cup of blueberries has 13 net carbs. Cover than with some heavy cream. I'm so full, I can't imagine anyone would need to eat more. Low carb real foods are incredibly satisfying.

    She didn't say minuscule amount of food, she said minuscule amount of carbs.

    I don't find fat filling at all, so don't believe I would find a keto diet "incredibly satisfying," although I think it's great for those who do (the thought of eating 70-80% of my calories from fat seems like torture to me, and I quite like fat and wish I found it more filling). But you were responding to something not said.

    True, she did say minuscule amount of carbs, which is why I described one of my higher carb meals. My point was that when choosing real foods with lower carbohydrate content, be it blueberries, kale, broccoli, spinach, salad, tomatoes, carrots, onions, celery, strawberries, walnuts, almonds, peanut butter, the list goes on and on. You are not eating minuscule amounts. In fact, I never have to limit myself with these foods. I mean, how many carrots are you really wanting to eat in one sitting or one day?

    Of course, if you wanted the same amount of carbs in terms of bread or processed food, you'd be looking at a sad plate--that's true. In that situation, I would call it minuscule.

    So I'm allowed to say I love my carbs... and no, I'm not talking about a minuscule amount!
  • Expatmommy79Expatmommy79 Posts: 941Member, Premium Member Posts: 941Member, Premium Member
    Let's say net carbs and gross carbs are the same...for comparison purposes

    @Expatmommy79 a carb is a carb when it comes to nutritional ketosis based on the literature and being in a state of nutritional ketosis most of the time for the past 1.5 years. The main thing is to keep the carbs <50 grams daily and of course to keep protein on the low side of medium and make up the lost carbs/protein with non grain fat sources.

    Thank you! That's the short answer I was looking for. :)
  • NorthCascadesNorthCascades Posts: 9,385Member Member Posts: 9,385Member Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    I gotta say, I don't know a single cyclist that is keto. That goes for my group as well as pros. With the risk and drugs these guys will use to become optimal, I can't imagine they haven't heard of or experimented with it.

    Same here. I know cyclists who eat plenty of carbs before big events, none who are keto or very low carb. None of them are diabetic. Most are pretty good on the bike.

    Most people who do aerobic exercise regularly mostly burn fat for energy. It's like keto but without the horribly restricted diet. Honestly, any diet that won't let you eat an apple and some raspberries is extremely suspect. After a long bike ride, I love me some raspberry smoothie.
  • Christine_72Christine_72 Posts: 16,074Member Member Posts: 16,074Member Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    I gotta say, I don't know a single cyclist that is keto. That goes for my group as well as pros. With the risk and drugs these guys will use to become optimal, I can't imagine they haven't heard of or experimented with it.

    Same here. I know cyclists who eat plenty of carbs before big events, none who are keto or very low carb. None of them are diabetic. Most are pretty good on the bike.

    Most people who do aerobic exercise regularly mostly burn fat for energy. It's like keto but without the horribly restricted diet. Honestly, any diet that won't let you eat an apple and some raspberries is extremely suspect. After a long bike ride, I love me some raspberry smoothie.

    I will admit, that the lack of fruit and veggies and the fact that some people freak out if they eat an apple, is the one thing that really bothers me about the keto diet :(

  • CrisseydaCrisseyda Posts: 532Member Member Posts: 532Member Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    I gotta say, I don't know a single cyclist that is keto. That goes for my group as well as pros. With the risk and drugs these guys will use to become optimal, I can't imagine they haven't heard of or experimented with it.

    Same here. I know cyclists who eat plenty of carbs before big events, none who are keto or very low carb. None of them are diabetic. Most are pretty good on the bike.

    Most people who do aerobic exercise regularly mostly burn fat for energy. It's like keto but without the horribly restricted diet. Honestly, any diet that won't let you eat an apple and some raspberries is extremely suspect. After a long bike ride, I love me some raspberry smoothie.

    FYI Raspberries are considered low carb in my world. 1 cup is 7 g of net carbs.
    An apple, however, is at little higher at 20 g net carbs. You could definitely fit it in to your macros, but contrast that with eating about 6 cups of kale (also 20 g of net carbs)--the nutritional impact is much greater.
  • ubermofishubermofish Posts: 102Member Member Posts: 102Member Member
    For OP's question, in my experience, I have found that as long as I stay under 50g net carbs in a day I don't get out of ketosis. Whether those carbs are from veggies, sugars, breads, whatever, it doesnt seem to matter. However, I've found that the more carbs I eat, the more water I retain. When I stick to a traditional LCHF meal plan, I start seeing the bigger weight drop numbers.
  • queenliz99queenliz99 Posts: 15,358Member Member Posts: 15,358Member Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    I gotta say, I don't know a single cyclist that is keto. That goes for my group as well as pros. With the risk and drugs these guys will use to become optimal, I can't imagine they haven't heard of or experimented with it.

    Same here. I know cyclists who eat plenty of carbs before big events, none who are keto or very low carb. None of them are diabetic. Most are pretty good on the bike.

    Most people who do aerobic exercise regularly mostly burn fat for energy. It's like keto but without the horribly restricted diet. Honestly, any diet that won't let you eat an apple and some raspberries is extremely suspect. After a long bike ride, I love me some raspberry smoothie.

    FYI Raspberries are considered low carb in my world. 1 cup is 7 g of net carbs.
    An apple, however, is at little higher at 20 g net carbs. You could definitely fit it in to your macros, but contrast that with eating about 6 cups of kale (also 20 g of net carbs)--the nutritional impact is much greater.

    After a 50 miler I want 6 cups of kale! Oh yea!!
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    I find it more pleasant to be able to eat some kale, as well as many other non-starchy veg, and also an apple (or lately, a pear, which is also high carb). Luckily it's not a tradeoff.

    For post-run, I prefer the pear, or maybe just a meal with some potatoes as a side, yum.
  • NorthCascadesNorthCascades Posts: 9,385Member Member Posts: 9,385Member Member
    FYI Raspberries are considered low carb in my world. 1 cup is 7 g of net carbs.
    An apple, however, is at little higher at 20 g net carbs. You could definitely fit it in to your macros, but contrast that with eating about 6 cups of kale (also 20 g of net carbs)--the nutritional impact is much greater.

    I do a 50+ mile bike ride every Saturday. Usually out in the mountains because the scenery is much better. When I get home, I enjoy a smoothie. I blend about 18 oz of frozen raspberries with milk and protein mix. It's delicious, filling, satisfying, nutrient packed, makes my body feel good, and did I mention I enjoy the hell out of it? :)

    25630848303_2f9ed7bb33_o_d.jpg
  • queenliz99queenliz99 Posts: 15,358Member Member Posts: 15,358Member Member
    FYI Raspberries are considered low carb in my world. 1 cup is 7 g of net carbs.
    An apple, however, is at little higher at 20 g net carbs. You could definitely fit it in to your macros, but contrast that with eating about 6 cups of kale (also 20 g of net carbs)--the nutritional impact is much greater.

    I do a 50+ mile bike ride every Saturday. Usually out in the mountains because the scenery is much better. When I get home, I enjoy a smoothie. I blend about 18 oz of frozen raspberries with milk and protein mix. It's delicious, filling, satisfying, nutrient packed, makes my body feel good, and did I mention I enjoy the hell out of it? :)

    25630848303_2f9ed7bb33_o_d.jpg

    That is beautiful!! Where is it?
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