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The Sugar Conspiracy
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Likewise, I also think demonizing abstinence because YOU find the practice to be unsustainable is a bad idea. I have never said that anybody has an easier road than I do, but there are those who are unfamiliar with my exact situation (as I am with theirs). We all have our trials and tribulations, weaknesses and strengths, we just have to play the cards we're dealt. However, our ability to offer useful advice is limited by our experience and if you have no experience concerning problems with sugary foods, the value of that advice to me is greatly diminished.
Saying you have a problem with sugar/fat/salt doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
I have never once demonized abstinence (nor do I believe it is unsustainable), so once again you are arguing with something I've never said. Why? What's the point? Do you think I will forget that I am not against abstinence if someone prefers it and start arguing that everyone should eat cake? (I barely ever eat cake myself -- not worth the calories.)
lol. Take it easy, lady. I have never once demonized individual components of diet. So why are you arguing with something I never said? The answer (I'm hoping) is that you weren't talking about me specifically (if you were, you must have me confused with someone else). Likewise, I was not talking about you specifically. I still don't get why you would think that.
Seriously? You wrote that to me, immediately after quoting me, in a conversation we were having, and capitalized YOU. Of course it appeared like you were referring to me. I was specifically referring to the Lustig piece and keto mom's comments in the post you quoted, as was clear from the entirety of the post. I do believe that both of them have demonized components of a diet, yes.
I simply followed the same exact format which you used when you replied immediately after you quoted me. The same one in which you capitalized "YOU". Do you seriously not see that?
I do, but you cut out the context. Specifically:None of that supports the idea of sugar as uniquely a problem or a "sugar conspiracy," which is what the discussion in this thread is about. [ To clarify, Lustig's claims, as indicated by the article linked in the opening post. ]
I think nutritional knowledge is valuable independent from whether it is necessary to lose weight (which obviously it is not). I think demonizing individual components of a diet because YOU may find them particularly tempting also is a bad idea and not generalizable (not everyone finds sugar the most tempting ingredient, and that DOESN'T mean those people have it lots easier or are different in kind when it comes to obesity/overweight), which is what my point was. [ This is an obvious reference to the discussion that I was having with ketomom, who made that claim, not to anything you said. ] "Lucky" has nothing to do with it, and liking sugar (even a super lot, even plain old sugar without fat) doesn't make you less responsible for the outcome (such that it's BigSugar's fault, anymore than my issue can be blamed on the local Indian place, which would be absurd).
Not claiming anyone in this thread is making the last argument, but I see it on MFP all the time and people use Lustig for it.
If you actually thought I was accusing you of demonizing sugar, I do apologize and did not mean to do so. Not sure why I all capped YOU -- it is weird and all I can say is that I was posting quickly at the time to a bunch of different people and thought the reference back to the keto mom discussion and Lustig was more clear than perhaps it was.
So you were just accusing me of taking a position you know I never have because you thought I unfairly attributed a position to you or what?0 -
No. I assumed you meant the term in a more general sense as I know you have never personally witnessed me expressing that position. I just figured that by following the same exact format, it would be clear to you that I also meant it in a more general sense. This is in line with a statement I made in my original post in this thread that those types of people fall on both sides of the argument.lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Likewise, I also think demonizing abstinence because YOU find the practice to be unsustainable is a bad idea. I have never said that anybody has an easier road than I do, but there are those who are unfamiliar with my exact situation (as I am with theirs). We all have our trials and tribulations, weaknesses and strengths, we just have to play the cards we're dealt. However, our ability to offer useful advice is limited by our experience and if you have no experience concerning problems with sugary foods, the value of that advice to me is greatly diminished.
Saying you have a problem with sugar/fat/salt doesn't absolve you of responsibility.
I have never once demonized abstinence (nor do I believe it is unsustainable), so once again you are arguing with something I've never said. Why? What's the point? Do you think I will forget that I am not against abstinence if someone prefers it and start arguing that everyone should eat cake? (I barely ever eat cake myself -- not worth the calories.)
lol. Take it easy, lady. I have never once demonized individual components of diet. So why are you arguing with something I never said? The answer (I'm hoping) is that you weren't talking about me specifically (if you were, you must have me confused with someone else). Likewise, I was not talking about you specifically. I still don't get why you would think that.
Seriously? You wrote that to me, immediately after quoting me, in a conversation we were having, and capitalized YOU. Of course it appeared like you were referring to me. I was specifically referring to the Lustig piece and keto mom's comments in the post you quoted, as was clear from the entirety of the post. I do believe that both of them have demonized components of a diet, yes.
I simply followed the same exact format which you used when you replied immediately after you quoted me. The same one in which you capitalized "YOU". Do you seriously not see that?
I do, but you cut out the context. Specifically:None of that supports the idea of sugar as uniquely a problem or a "sugar conspiracy," which is what the discussion in this thread is about. [ To clarify, Lustig's claims, as indicated by the article linked in the opening post. ]
I think nutritional knowledge is valuable independent from whether it is necessary to lose weight (which obviously it is not). I think demonizing individual components of a diet because YOU may find them particularly tempting also is a bad idea and not generalizable (not everyone finds sugar the most tempting ingredient, and that DOESN'T mean those people have it lots easier or are different in kind when it comes to obesity/overweight), which is what my point was. [ This is an obvious reference to the discussion that I was having with ketomom, who made that claim, not to anything you said. ] "Lucky" has nothing to do with it, and liking sugar (even a super lot, even plain old sugar without fat) doesn't make you less responsible for the outcome (such that it's BigSugar's fault, anymore than my issue can be blamed on the local Indian place, which would be absurd).
Not claiming anyone in this thread is making the last argument, but I see it on MFP all the time and people use Lustig for it.
If you actually thought I was accusing you of demonizing sugar, I do apologize and did not mean to do so. Not sure why I all capped YOU -- it is weird and all I can say is that I was posting quickly at the time to a bunch of different people and thought the reference back to the keto mom discussion and Lustig was more clear than perhaps it was.
So you were just accusing me of taking a position you know I never have because you thought I unfairly attributed a position to you or what?
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I'm just catching up reading this thread after a long day at my conference. while I don't have time right now to respond to some specific points, I just wanted to say that it kind of seems like some gaps were bridged here today, that people respectfully tried to understand others viewpoints instead of just rehashing the same arguments.
Good work kids, and I mean that in a non condescending way! I really hope these new perspectives help all of us in future threads.
Man now I'm starting to scare me!13 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »I chose bananas and low fat yogurt and whole grain cereals and potatoes with their skins and the like because I was told my whole life how "healthy" those foods were (those are "good" carbs after all - turns out for me "good" carb is an oxymoron).
That makes sense. I actually had to learn that fat didn't fill me up and that carbs do (well, some of them) given that by the time I started this in '14 I was so overwhelmed with all the "carbs are bad" propaganda and "fat is filling" stuff. That's why generalizations like that drive me crazy. And probably if I hadn't been successful once before doing basically what I ended up doing I might have spent more time spinning my wheels and wondering why bacon and full fat yogurt aren't the most filling thing ever, for me.I thought I was weak and unmotivated and undisciplined and lazy and that I just needed to "eat less and move more". Basically the whole 'put down the cookie, fattie' sentiment that's seen a lot among those who think everyone should just be able to eat everything "in moderation".
I really, really, really don't think this is what anyone is saying. I think everyone agrees that it's sensible to choose foods based on satiety and that there are individual differences as to what's sating. If cookies make you hungry, that's a sensible reason not to bother with them, unless it's a special occasion when you really want one. There are tons of foods I'm not interested in bothering with, and I have never interpreted moderation as "eat everything, whether you like it that much or not, and regardless of how it makes you feel." I do think that for many people -- those who buy into the bad/good foods thing and feel like they ruined everything if they eat a "bad food" like a cookie, that that attitude can be counterproductive, but that's something different and I don't think it applies to everyone (and I don't see you as having those kinds of attitudes).I can see how the idea that for some people carbs make weight loss harder could be construed as 'it's not my fault I got fat, it's because of the carbs' (and therefore implying that if you didn't get fat because of the carbs that it must be because you are just a gluttonous sloth). I can also see that when the calorie counters insist that those who needed to cut carbs think carbs = cookies and assume they must have had a poor diet in general before going LC it implies that those who do LC were too lazy/stupid to try the conventional methods first. Or that they tried them, they just didn't do them "right" - that line of thinking, blaming the dieter, rather than taking a good look at the diet, is what kept me overweight for so long. So strong was the CICO, eat less, move more message in my generation that I beat my head against that brick wall for nearly 20 years.
From my experience on MFP, though, many, many people DO equate carbs with "junk food." Not everyone, generally not experienced LC dieters, of course, but many newbies who come in and talk about cutting carbs without knowing what they are, because carbs have been so soundly demonized. That's what I feel like I'm fighting against on MFP much of the time -- the notion that carbs are inherently bad, for all, and in all amounts. The whole "carbs will give you dementia" thing or the endless links to claims that carbs cause cancer that ignore that the links identify sat fat as an even more strong correlation and fruits and veg (carbs) as foods that seem to have positive effects.
But anyway, I really don't think the fact that you say that you found dieting harder with more carbs and easy with fewer to be a claim that you weren't responsible for being overweight, unlike the rest of us former fatties. I do think some of the claims -- the addiction stuff, the assertion that we just can't understand the cravings, that the desire to overeat with sugar is different in kind than the desire to overeat other foods -- do go there. (And I didn't think that's what you were saying.)
I feel responsible for getting overweight, I felt responsible while I was overweight, although there were reasons I could point to, of course, but I guess I'm lucky that I didn't beat myself up about it as much as many did. There were reasons I didn't feel like I could deal with changing my habits and eating, and then I was at a point where I could and I figured out how. Not as easy as that makes it sound, of course. ;-)
I can only say that I totally agree with all of this
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diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
Cheese: there seem to be quite a few posts about people who have trouble giving up or controlling the amount they eat.
Crisps (Chips to the U.S. MFP users): a lot of people seem to struggle with those also. Mrs StealthHealth struggles to control this type of food whereas I don't (but can struggle with chocolate).0 -
How many topics about sugar should one website have?
As many as needed to answer te question "SUGAR, Yes, or No?"
A bijillion topics on sugar forseen.
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StealthHealth wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
Cheese: there seem to be quite a few posts about people who have trouble giving up or controlling the amount they eat.
Crisps (Chips to the U.S. MFP users): a lot of people seem to struggle with those also. Mrs StealthHealth struggles to control this type of food whereas I don't (but can struggle with chocolate).
Savoury snacks are my weakness: nuts, crisps etc. Very, very hard for me to resist. M-I-L gave me a large tub of salted cashews for my birthday, 2500 cals worth! Could eat that in a day or two but decided they would be off limits at home and packaged them up into small portions to take into work and enjoy them over an extended period.
It's taken me five decades to learn that level of self-control but still find it hard if they are in plain sight.
Sugary snacks: M-I-L bought me four bars of my favourite chocolate for Christmas (yes she is both fat and a bit of a feeder!). Still have one bar left now, find it no problem to eat a couple of squares, enjoy it, and then not want it for days or weeks despite seeing it in the fridge every time I open the door.
As pointed out previously it's the blanket statements by charlatans with a agenda that one foodstuff is the problem for entire populations that really annoys me. That and the intellectual dishonesty from people such as Lustig and Taubes, who are clearly not unintelligent people, to exclude any and all data that doesn't support their assertions.14 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
I have a friend who is having serious trouble losing weight. His issue is binging on peanut butter in the middle of the night. Literally eating it out of the jar with a spoon.2 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
My mom will eat a whole jar of Nutella too.0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
My mom will eat a whole jar of Nutella too.
Nutella is the devil!Just kidding! Just kidding! Calm down.2 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
I have a friend who is having serious trouble losing weight. His issue is binging on peanut butter in the middle of the night. Literally eating it out of the jar with a spoon.
You act like there's something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon. Granted, I'm losing weight much more consistently now that I'm limiting it to one spoonful, but as with others, I've gone through half a jar before.2 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
My mom will eat a whole jar of Nutella too.
TFW you're allergic to hazelnuts.
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The_Enginerd wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
I have a friend who is having serious trouble losing weight. His issue is binging on peanut butter in the middle of the night. Literally eating it out of the jar with a spoon.
You act like there's something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon. Granted, I'm losing weight much more consistently now that I'm limiting it to one spoonful, but as with others, I've gone through half a jar before.
There is something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon if it causes me to go over my calorie goal.2 -
The_Enginerd wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
I have a friend who is having serious trouble losing weight. His issue is binging on peanut butter in the middle of the night. Literally eating it out of the jar with a spoon.
You act like there's something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon. Granted, I'm losing weight much more consistently now that I'm limiting it to one spoonful, but as with others, I've gone through half a jar before.
There is something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon if it causes me to go over my calorie goal.
Yup. But my one spoonful is perfectly fine since it's within my goal.1 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
My mom will eat a whole jar of Nutella too.
Nutella is the devil!Just kidding! Just kidding! Calm down.
I've never tried Nutella (I kind of think maybe I shouldn't) ;-), but even the 7-11 nearest to my place now carries it.
For some reason, though, whenever I see Nutella written I think Nigella.1 -
Am I the only one that thinks Nutella tastes disgusting?
Oh, and since lemurcat brought it up, I'm using it as an excuse:
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I much prefer it on top of a warm English muffin, or waffles, slightly melty. Mmmm....The_Enginerd wrote: »diannethegeek wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »Why don't we see loads of posts from people having to reduce protein and fat because it causes them cravings and they can't lose weight without reducing these 2? It's most always carbs/sugar, there's got to be something to it...
Peanut butter.
I have a friend who is having serious trouble losing weight. His issue is binging on peanut butter in the middle of the night. Literally eating it out of the jar with a spoon.
You act like there's something wrong with eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon. Granted, I'm losing weight much more consistently now that I'm limiting it to one spoonful, but as with others, I've gone through half a jar before.
Eating thousands of calories of it in the middle of the night in a binging behavior, after having already met your calorie goal that day, probably a bit of an issue. Must be all the 3g of sugar in each serving of PB...
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Am I the only one that thinks Nutella tastes disgusting?
I don't lIke it either. I bought it to eat on graham crackers. I wanted to taste more chocolate. Disappointing! The description makes it seem like I would love it.
Now the Hershey spread is a different story. Won't be reasonable so rarely have it but it's delicious on graham crackers. Especially if I make homemade crackers. Sigh. My grape Crystal Light that I just poured as a treat seems inadequate now!0 -
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