Obesity Journal study: It's not just CICO
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NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »ok - permanent as in six years. But my point is that it didn't correct itself after a few months or years
I know. I know.
That is the most depressing part......
-->> when will it correct?
Someone on the forums mentioned "18 months", but I'm not sure where their source came from.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@Crisseyda It's easy to pick a single point out of a whole post and throw around studies and theoretical ideation at it picked out carefully to support your point (any point has at least a handful of supporting theories if you look carefully enough), but how do you marry your theories with practice? How do you explain TBL contestants slowed metabolism when they were effectively in a ketogenic state if being in a ketogenic state prevents slowed metabolism somehow due to some silly compartment theory?
It takes a single case to disprove a theory. How do you explain me, insulin resistant, previously pre-diabetic, losing 90 lb comfortably with barely any hunger on a moderate calorie moderate carb diet with quite a few high glycemic foods (which happen to be the most filling for me)? How do you explain 80/10/10 vegans? How do you explain calorie consumption, but not carb consumption, being predictive of obesity? How do you explain high protein diets preserving more muscle mass, reducing hunger and helping fat loss regardless of carb levels when protein is pretty insulinemic?
@amusedmonkey
Nah, it's actually a lot easier to take no position and have no answers.
And, we disagree on whether or not they were in ketosis. Insulin inhibits the breakdown of fat as well as ketone production (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3287950 ). In case of these contestants, who are already obese and most likely insulin resistant, their insulin levels are already higher at baseline--it is a greater challenge for them to enter ketosis. A calorie restricted diet is unlikely to be very effective. If you disagree with the theory, fine; but don't pretend the science isn't there--and you have yet to offer any direct counter evidence.
And as far as all your other questions, did you have any specific scientific evidence to share? About vegans, protein, or the obesity epidemic? I really don't understand why you think all these concepts are mutually exclusive. Obesity and diabetes are multi-factorial diseases, and the role of insulin is one major piece of the puzzle for many people. Each individual person who suffers from obesity likely has unique combination of contributing factors from stress to addiction to culture to history to genetics to food environment and so on.
Seriously? You need evidence that the vast majority of thin people are not on a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting? Or that the carb consumption in countries like Japan and some African countries is relatively high while obesity in relatively low? That countries with high vegetarian populations like India do not rank high on the obesity scale? You need evidence that someone on a very low calorie, low carb diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese? You need evidence for what is common knowledge that protein is even more insulinemic than carbs (which is part of the reason why it's also very satisfying)? You need evidence that I somehow imagined losing 90 pounds on a moderate carb diet? This is starting to border on silly...
@amusedmonkey
No, I'd just like you to present some evidence that connects these general questions you are posing with your fundamental disagreement with what you label "the insulin theory of obesity"? Otherwise, I don't see any connection.
1. "the vast majority of thin people are not a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting" -- we are not talking about people who are already thin. We are talking about people who are obese. The majority of the people in the US are overweight or obese. Staying or being thin is not the issue in question; going from obese to thin is.
2. "countries like Japan and some African countries" and "high vegetarian populations like India" eat more traditional diets--less processed foods, less sugar, more nutrients, more fiber... so they don't develop insulin resistance and obesity in the first place.
3. "someone on a very low calorie diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese" -- I said they were more resistant to entering ketosis and even staying in ketosis due to high insulin levels and insulin resistance at baseline. I also shared the study showing that insulin independently inhibits ketogenesis even in the presence of fat metabolism. For those contestants, the constant hunger and drop in BMR corroborate this--not something you typically find in a ketogenic state. People who enter ketosis regularly know that deeper ketosis means better effects.
4. "protein is even more insulinemic than carbs" -- the insulin response from protein is caused by incretin release, not by a rise in glucose. Incretins also slow gastric emptying and increase satiety. All things being equal, this would explain why a steak keeps you feeling fuller longer than white bread--and you eat less overall.
5. "I somehow imagined losing 90 lbs on a moderate carb diet" -- you're experience is not in question here. The topic is why calorie restricted diets suppress BMR long-term, and why ultimately almost all diets fail (all are centered on CICO, and not the hormonal causes of obesity--your observations about higher carb traditional diets should clue you to the actual causes of obesity. You just need to take a look at what is different between those and the western diet).2 -
@crisseyda
I was pretty sure that Japanese and other southeast Asian populations do indeed have insulin resistance, and that it shows up at lower body mass. This is believed to be related to a greater degree of visceral fast deposition, as opposed to Caucasians, who typically have higher degrees of subcutaneous fat.
Here's a fairly recent review on the topic.
Kodama, Keiichi, et al."Ethnic Differences in the Relationship Between Insulin Sensitivity and Insulin Response A systematic review and meta-analysis." Diabetes care 36.6 (2013): 1789-1796.CONCLUSIONS Our findings suggest that the genetic background of Africans and East Asians makes them more and differentially susceptible to diabetes than Caucasians. This ethnic stratification could be implicated in the different natural courses of diabetes onset.1 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@Crisseyda It's easy to pick a single point out of a whole post and throw around studies and theoretical ideation at it picked out carefully to support your point (any point has at least a handful of supporting theories if you look carefully enough), but how do you marry your theories with practice? How do you explain TBL contestants slowed metabolism when they were effectively in a ketogenic state if being in a ketogenic state prevents slowed metabolism somehow due to some silly compartment theory?
It takes a single case to disprove a theory. How do you explain me, insulin resistant, previously pre-diabetic, losing 90 lb comfortably with barely any hunger on a moderate calorie moderate carb diet with quite a few high glycemic foods (which happen to be the most filling for me)? How do you explain 80/10/10 vegans? How do you explain calorie consumption, but not carb consumption, being predictive of obesity? How do you explain high protein diets preserving more muscle mass, reducing hunger and helping fat loss regardless of carb levels when protein is pretty insulinemic?
@amusedmonkey
Nah, it's actually a lot easier to take no position and have no answers.
And, we disagree on whether or not they were in ketosis. Insulin inhibits the breakdown of fat as well as ketone production (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3287950 ). In case of these contestants, who are already obese and most likely insulin resistant, their insulin levels are already higher at baseline--it is a greater challenge for them to enter ketosis. A calorie restricted diet is unlikely to be very effective. If you disagree with the theory, fine; but don't pretend the science isn't there--and you have yet to offer any direct counter evidence.
And as far as all your other questions, did you have any specific scientific evidence to share? About vegans, protein, or the obesity epidemic? I really don't understand why you think all these concepts are mutually exclusive. Obesity and diabetes are multi-factorial diseases, and the role of insulin is one major piece of the puzzle for many people. Each individual person who suffers from obesity likely has unique combination of contributing factors from stress to addiction to culture to history to genetics to food environment and so on.
Seriously? You need evidence that the vast majority of thin people are not on a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting? Or that the carb consumption in countries like Japan and some African countries is relatively high while obesity in relatively low? That countries with high vegetarian populations like India do not rank high on the obesity scale? You need evidence that someone on a very low calorie, low carb diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese? You need evidence for what is common knowledge that protein is even more insulinemic than carbs (which is part of the reason why it's also very satisfying)? You need evidence that I somehow imagined losing 90 pounds on a moderate carb diet? This is starting to border on silly...
@amusedmonkey
No, I'd just like you to present some evidence that connects these general questions you are posing with your fundamental disagreement with what you label "the insulin theory of obesity"? Otherwise, I don't see any connection.
1. "the vast majority of thin people are not a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting" -- we are not talking about people who are already thin. We are talking about people who are obese. The majority of the people in the US are overweight or obese. Staying or being thin is not the issue in question; going from obese to thin is.
2. "countries like Japan and some African countries" and "high vegetarian populations like India" eat more traditional diets--less processed foods, less sugar, more nutrients, more fiber... so they don't develop insulin resistance and obesity in the first place.
3. "someone on a very low calorie diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese" -- I said they were more resistant to entering ketosis and even staying in ketosis due to high insulin levels and insulin resistance at baseline. I also shared the study showing that insulin independently inhibits ketogenesis even in the presence of fat metabolism. For those contestants, the constant hunger and drop in BMR corroborate this--not something you typically find in a ketogenic state. People who enter ketosis regularly know that deeper ketosis means better effects.
4. "protein is even more insulinemic than carbs" -- the insulin response from protein is caused by incretin release, not by a rise in glucose. Incretins also slow gastric emptying and increase satiety. All things being equal, this would explain why a steak keeps you feeling fuller longer than white bread--and you eat less overall.
5. "I somehow imagined losing 90 lbs on a moderate carb diet" -- you're experience is not in question here. The topic is why calorie restricted diets suppress BMR long-term, and why ultimately almost all diets fail (all are centered on CICO, and not the hormonal causes of obesity--your observations about higher carb traditional diets should clue you to the actual causes of obesity. You just need to take a look at what is different between those and the western diet).
I don't know how many times the goal posts need to be shifted. The video is clearly saying insulin=weight gain because compartments, which I find absurd. It does not mention obese or thin. It does not mention the reason insulin levels are increased.
I did not grow up on a western diet. I grew up on a traditional nutrient rich whole foods diet with very little added sugar and a minimum of 50 grams of fiber a day yet I developed severe obesity and insulin resistance (prediabetes) and reached a weight higher than some biggest loser contestants. Losing weight the majority of my decrease in calories came from fat (used to consume 50-60% calories from fat, mainly olive oil and nuts). Lost a lot of weight easily with barely any hunger and my carb consumption only saw a modest 30-40 gram decrease, if even that on some days. I consume anywhere between 150 and 350 grams of carbs depending on the day. I don't do water fasts. I have not seen any drastic decrease in metabolism like the contestants on the show. I don't believe I am a special snowflake who magically defied the 2 compartment "rule" and somehow managed to burn fat in the presence of insulin resistance and carbs without the drastic decrease shown for the contestants who were on low carb and calorie diets with lots of exercise.
What you are basically saying is:
"If you are obese you need to fast or eat low carb in order not to suffer a drastic decrease in metabolism, but wait! since you are obese eating low carb may not put you in ketosis so you are doomed and screwed either way"
"Insulin causes obesity because carbs=insulin=fat storage, but protein = insulin =/= fat storage because it's not the insulin that causes obesity, it's the rise in glucose, but wait! It is the insulin after all, but if you are not already fat, insulin won't make you fat. Or you know what? Actually insulin will only make you fat if you are thin and insulin sensitive, but once you are fat it actually prohibits further gain"
"The insulin theory of obesity only applies if the carbs you eat come from doughnuts, but not rice. The insulin response caused by rice will not make you fat because it's not sugar. It's not the insulin that makes you fat, it's sugar and processed foods."
Indeed we need to take a look at what's different between the western diet and the diets of some of the thinner countries, and here it is:
13 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@Crisseyda It's easy to pick a single point out of a whole post and throw around studies and theoretical ideation at it picked out carefully to support your point (any point has at least a handful of supporting theories if you look carefully enough), but how do you marry your theories with practice? How do you explain TBL contestants slowed metabolism when they were effectively in a ketogenic state if being in a ketogenic state prevents slowed metabolism somehow due to some silly compartment theory?
It takes a single case to disprove a theory. How do you explain me, insulin resistant, previously pre-diabetic, losing 90 lb comfortably with barely any hunger on a moderate calorie moderate carb diet with quite a few high glycemic foods (which happen to be the most filling for me)? How do you explain 80/10/10 vegans? How do you explain calorie consumption, but not carb consumption, being predictive of obesity? How do you explain high protein diets preserving more muscle mass, reducing hunger and helping fat loss regardless of carb levels when protein is pretty insulinemic?
@amusedmonkey
Nah, it's actually a lot easier to take no position and have no answers.
And, we disagree on whether or not they were in ketosis. Insulin inhibits the breakdown of fat as well as ketone production (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3287950 ). In case of these contestants, who are already obese and most likely insulin resistant, their insulin levels are already higher at baseline--it is a greater challenge for them to enter ketosis. A calorie restricted diet is unlikely to be very effective. If you disagree with the theory, fine; but don't pretend the science isn't there--and you have yet to offer any direct counter evidence.
And as far as all your other questions, did you have any specific scientific evidence to share? About vegans, protein, or the obesity epidemic? I really don't understand why you think all these concepts are mutually exclusive. Obesity and diabetes are multi-factorial diseases, and the role of insulin is one major piece of the puzzle for many people. Each individual person who suffers from obesity likely has unique combination of contributing factors from stress to addiction to culture to history to genetics to food environment and so on.
Seriously? You need evidence that the vast majority of thin people are not on a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting? Or that the carb consumption in countries like Japan and some African countries is relatively high while obesity in relatively low? That countries with high vegetarian populations like India do not rank high on the obesity scale? You need evidence that someone on a very low calorie, low carb diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese? You need evidence for what is common knowledge that protein is even more insulinemic than carbs (which is part of the reason why it's also very satisfying)? You need evidence that I somehow imagined losing 90 pounds on a moderate carb diet? This is starting to border on silly...
@amusedmonkey
No, I'd just like you to present some evidence that connects these general questions you are posing with your fundamental disagreement with what you label "the insulin theory of obesity"? Otherwise, I don't see any connection.
1. "the vast majority of thin people are not a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting" -- we are not talking about people who are already thin. We are talking about people who are obese. The majority of the people in the US are overweight or obese. Staying or being thin is not the issue in question; going from obese to thin is.
2. "countries like Japan and some African countries" and "high vegetarian populations like India" eat more traditional diets--less processed foods, less sugar, more nutrients, more fiber... so they don't develop insulin resistance and obesity in the first place.
3. "someone on a very low calorie diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese" -- I said they were more resistant to entering ketosis and even staying in ketosis due to high insulin levels and insulin resistance at baseline. I also shared the study showing that insulin independently inhibits ketogenesis even in the presence of fat metabolism. For those contestants, the constant hunger and drop in BMR corroborate this--not something you typically find in a ketogenic state. People who enter ketosis regularly know that deeper ketosis means better effects.
4. "protein is even more insulinemic than carbs" -- the insulin response from protein is caused by incretin release, not by a rise in glucose. Incretins also slow gastric emptying and increase satiety. All things being equal, this would explain why a steak keeps you feeling fuller longer than white bread--and you eat less overall.
5. "I somehow imagined losing 90 lbs on a moderate carb diet" -- you're experience is not in question here. The topic is why calorie restricted diets suppress BMR long-term, and why ultimately almost all diets fail (all are centered on CICO, and not the hormonal causes of obesity--your observations about higher carb traditional diets should clue you to the actual causes of obesity. You just need to take a look at what is different between those and the western diet).
I don't know how many times the goal posts need to be shifted. The video is clearly saying insulin=weight gain because compartments, which I find absurd. It does not mention obese or thin. It does not mention the reason insulin levels are increased.
I did not grow up on a western diet. I grew up on a traditional nutrient rich whole foods diet with very little added sugar and a minimum of 50 grams of fiber a day yet I developed severe obesity and insulin resistance (prediabetes) and reached a weight higher than some biggest loser contestants. Losing weight the majority of my decrease in calories came from fat (used to consume 50-60% calories from fat, mainly olive oil and nuts). Lost a lot of weight easily with barely any hunger and my carb consumption only saw a modest 30-40 gram decrease, if even that on some days. I consume anywhere between 150 and 350 grams of carbs depending on the day. I don't do water fasts. I have not seen any drastic decrease in metabolism like the contestants on the show. I don't believe I am a special snowflake who magically defied the 2 compartment "rule" and somehow managed to burn fat in the presence of insulin resistance and carbs without the drastic decrease shown for the contestants who were on low carb and calorie diets with lots of exercise.
What you are basically saying is:
"If you are obese you need to fast or eat low carb in order not to suffer a drastic decrease in metabolism, but wait! since you are obese eating low carb may not put you in ketosis so you are doomed and screwed either way"
"Insulin causes obesity because carbs=insulin=fat storage, but protein = insulin =/= fat storage because it's not the insulin that causes obesity, it's the rise in glucose, but wait! It is the insulin after all, but if you are not already fat, insulin won't make you fat. Or you know what? Actually insulin will only make you fat if you are thin and insulin sensitive, but once you are fat it actually prohibits further gain"
"The insulin theory of obesity only applies if the carbs you eat come from doughnuts, but not rice. The insulin response caused by rice will not make you fat because it's not sugar. It's not the insulin that makes you fat, it's sugar and processed foods."
Indeed we need to take a look at what's different between the western diet and the diets of some of the thinner countries, and here it is:
That chart really says it all. For me, that average intake would equal me gaining weight with regularity. And boy, was I ever. I was eating low carb(except booze) but at least those average calories. Fine cheeses, very large steaks for the most part.4 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »@Crisseyda It's easy to pick a single point out of a whole post and throw around studies and theoretical ideation at it picked out carefully to support your point (any point has at least a handful of supporting theories if you look carefully enough), but how do you marry your theories with practice? How do you explain TBL contestants slowed metabolism when they were effectively in a ketogenic state if being in a ketogenic state prevents slowed metabolism somehow due to some silly compartment theory?
It takes a single case to disprove a theory. How do you explain me, insulin resistant, previously pre-diabetic, losing 90 lb comfortably with barely any hunger on a moderate calorie moderate carb diet with quite a few high glycemic foods (which happen to be the most filling for me)? How do you explain 80/10/10 vegans? How do you explain calorie consumption, but not carb consumption, being predictive of obesity? How do you explain high protein diets preserving more muscle mass, reducing hunger and helping fat loss regardless of carb levels when protein is pretty insulinemic?
@amusedmonkey
Nah, it's actually a lot easier to take no position and have no answers.
And, we disagree on whether or not they were in ketosis. Insulin inhibits the breakdown of fat as well as ketone production (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=3287950 ). In case of these contestants, who are already obese and most likely insulin resistant, their insulin levels are already higher at baseline--it is a greater challenge for them to enter ketosis. A calorie restricted diet is unlikely to be very effective. If you disagree with the theory, fine; but don't pretend the science isn't there--and you have yet to offer any direct counter evidence.
And as far as all your other questions, did you have any specific scientific evidence to share? About vegans, protein, or the obesity epidemic? I really don't understand why you think all these concepts are mutually exclusive. Obesity and diabetes are multi-factorial diseases, and the role of insulin is one major piece of the puzzle for many people. Each individual person who suffers from obesity likely has unique combination of contributing factors from stress to addiction to culture to history to genetics to food environment and so on.
Seriously? You need evidence that the vast majority of thin people are not on a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting? Or that the carb consumption in countries like Japan and some African countries is relatively high while obesity in relatively low? That countries with high vegetarian populations like India do not rank high on the obesity scale? You need evidence that someone on a very low calorie, low carb diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese? You need evidence for what is common knowledge that protein is even more insulinemic than carbs (which is part of the reason why it's also very satisfying)? You need evidence that I somehow imagined losing 90 pounds on a moderate carb diet? This is starting to border on silly...
@amusedmonkey
No, I'd just like you to present some evidence that connects these general questions you are posing with your fundamental disagreement with what you label "the insulin theory of obesity"? Otherwise, I don't see any connection.
1. "the vast majority of thin people are not a ketogenic diet and don't practice fasting" -- we are not talking about people who are already thin. We are talking about people who are obese. The majority of the people in the US are overweight or obese. Staying or being thin is not the issue in question; going from obese to thin is.
2. "countries like Japan and some African countries" and "high vegetarian populations like India" eat more traditional diets--less processed foods, less sugar, more nutrients, more fiber... so they don't develop insulin resistance and obesity in the first place.
3. "someone on a very low calorie diet doing 4-6 hours of exercise a day is somehow not able to enter ketosis because they are obese" -- I said they were more resistant to entering ketosis and even staying in ketosis due to high insulin levels and insulin resistance at baseline. I also shared the study showing that insulin independently inhibits ketogenesis even in the presence of fat metabolism. For those contestants, the constant hunger and drop in BMR corroborate this--not something you typically find in a ketogenic state. People who enter ketosis regularly know that deeper ketosis means better effects.
4. "protein is even more insulinemic than carbs" -- the insulin response from protein is caused by incretin release, not by a rise in glucose. Incretins also slow gastric emptying and increase satiety. All things being equal, this would explain why a steak keeps you feeling fuller longer than white bread--and you eat less overall.
5. "I somehow imagined losing 90 lbs on a moderate carb diet" -- you're experience is not in question here. The topic is why calorie restricted diets suppress BMR long-term, and why ultimately almost all diets fail (all are centered on CICO, and not the hormonal causes of obesity--your observations about higher carb traditional diets should clue you to the actual causes of obesity. You just need to take a look at what is different between those and the western diet).
I don't know how many times the goal posts need to be shifted. The video is clearly saying insulin=weight gain because compartments, which I find absurd. It does not mention obese or thin. It does not mention the reason insulin levels are increased.
I did not grow up on a western diet. I grew up on a traditional nutrient rich whole foods diet with very little added sugar and a minimum of 50 grams of fiber a day yet I developed severe obesity and insulin resistance (prediabetes) and reached a weight higher than some biggest loser contestants. Losing weight the majority of my decrease in calories came from fat (used to consume 50-60% calories from fat, mainly olive oil and nuts). Lost a lot of weight easily with barely any hunger and my carb consumption only saw a modest 30-40 gram decrease, if even that on some days. I consume anywhere between 150 and 350 grams of carbs depending on the day. I don't do water fasts. I have not seen any drastic decrease in metabolism like the contestants on the show. I don't believe I am a special snowflake who magically defied the 2 compartment "rule" and somehow managed to burn fat in the presence of insulin resistance and carbs without the drastic decrease shown for the contestants who were on low carb and calorie diets with lots of exercise.
What you are basically saying is:
"If you are obese you need to fast or eat low carb in order not to suffer a drastic decrease in metabolism, but wait! since you are obese eating low carb may not put you in ketosis so you are doomed and screwed either way"
"Insulin causes obesity because carbs=insulin=fat storage, but protein = insulin =/= fat storage because it's not the insulin that causes obesity, it's the rise in glucose, but wait! It is the insulin after all, but if you are not already fat, insulin won't make you fat. Or you know what? Actually insulin will only make you fat if you are thin and insulin sensitive, but once you are fat it actually prohibits further gain"
"The insulin theory of obesity only applies if the carbs you eat come from doughnuts, but not rice. The insulin response caused by rice will not make you fat because it's not sugar. It's not the insulin that makes you fat, it's sugar and processed foods."
Indeed we need to take a look at what's different between the western diet and the diets of some of the thinner countries, and here it is:
@amusedmonkey
1. "The video is clearly saying insulin=weight gain because compartments, which I find absurd." --nope, he says insulin inhibits the breakdown of stored fat.
2. "I don't believe I am a special snowflake" -- You got obese and pre-diabetic on on a whole foods, virtually sugar free diet. Sounds pretty darn special to me. Granted, all we have is your subjective experience, no data on this phenomenon.
3."'If you are obese you need to fast or eat low carb in order not to suffer a drastic decrease in metabolism, but wait! since you are obese eating low carb may not put you in ketosis so you are doomed and screwed either way'" -- nope, if you are insulin resistant, it will be harder to get into ketosis. Things that drop insulin levels dramatically--like especially fasting, restricting carbs, but also eating more protein, switching to whole foods, lowering stress, the list goes on and on--will be much more beneficial than simple calorie restriction plus exercise. You want to protect the BMR by helping the body tap into the virtually unlimited supply of energy in fat tissue. It that fat is blocked by high insulin levels, the body is going to feel like it is starving--and so will the person dieting.
4. "'Insulin causes obesity because carbs=insulin=fat storage, but protein = insulin =/= fat storage because it's not the insulin that causes obesity, it's the rise in glucose, but wait! It is the insulin after all, but if you are not already fat, insulin won't make you fat. Or you know what? Actually insulin will only make you fat if you are thin and insulin sensitive, but once you are fat it actually prohibits further gain'" -- you sure are confusing a lot of concepts here. I know: science is hard. I quoted directly from the review that you shared. If it doesn't make sense to you why insulin-sensitivity would be predictive of weight gain, and why insulin-resistance would actually inhibit weight gain, I think we may reached a threshold. Part of the problem here is that you are consistently trying to make things black and white. It really blocks critical thinking. Why don't we just stick to the topic at hand: which is how to lose weight without dropping BMR like the biggest losers did. Also the topic of Dr. Fung's talk, and NOT the causes of obesity.
5. "'The insulin theory of obesity only applies if the carbs you eat come from doughnuts, but not rice. The insulin response caused by rice will not make you fat because it's not sugar. It's not the insulin that makes you fat, it's sugar and processed foods.'" -- you got me there. I do believe processed foods and especially sugar are uniquely fattening and obesogenic. But what are we talking about here? The etiology of the obesity epidemic? Or how to lose weight if you are obese and insulin resistant?
6. In regards to your chart, I'm seeing an obvious non sequitir. "The US has a obesity epidemic. The US eats too many calories; therefore, the US obesity epidemic is caused simply by eating too many calories." You are confusing proximate with ultimate cause. Of course, they ate too many calories. The question is why. The factors are certainly many, but undeniably a major factor is inflammatory, nutrient-devoid, fiber-devoid, non-satiating, rapid-blood-glucose-inducing processed foods.2 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also do you know why insulin "inhibits lipolysis"?
Because if it's high it means you've just eaten and have plenty of energy available in your blood stream.
Calories.
@Stevencloser
yeah, maybe--if you're healthy. Or maybe it's high because your cells are insulin resistant and you haven't actually eaten in hours.
Science.If your theories get regularly shot down by others it should tell you something about yourself.
Your statement actually tells me a whole lot more about you.
And please don't give me so much credit, Steven! These are not my theories. I just read reliable evidence from doctors, nutritionists, and researchers--pioneers who have taken far more risks than I have. And I continue to learn more every day. I promise you, there are hundreds, maybe thousands more just like me, and we are growing. One day, you won't be able to keep up with squelching us, even on these forums.1 -
stevencloser wrote: »Also do you know why insulin "inhibits lipolysis"?
Because if it's high it means you've just eaten and have plenty of energy available in your blood stream.
Calories.
@Stevencloser
yeah, maybe--if you're healthy. Or maybe it's high because your cells are insulin resistant and you haven't actually eaten in hours.
Science.If your theories get regularly shot down by others it should tell you something about yourself.
Your statement actually tells me a whole lot more about you.
And please don't give me so much credit, Steven! These are not my theories. I just read reliable evidence from doctors, nutritionists, and researchers--pioneers who have taken far more risks than I have. And I continue to learn more every day. I promise you, there are hundreds, maybe thousands more just like me, and we are growing. One day, you won't be able to keep up with squelching us, even on these forums.
Another piece of science, insulin resistance means your cells don't respond to the insulin as well as they should which leads to more being produced to reach the desired effect, meaning the effcts of it get diminished. All effects.3 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Also do you know why insulin "inhibits lipolysis"?
Because if it's high it means you've just eaten and have plenty of energy available in your blood stream.
Calories.
@Stevencloser
yeah, maybe--if you're healthy. Or maybe it's high because your cells are insulin resistant and you haven't actually eaten in hours.
Science.If your theories get regularly shot down by others it should tell you something about yourself.
Your statement actually tells me a whole lot more about you.
And please don't give me so much credit, Steven! These are not my theories. I just read reliable evidence from doctors, nutritionists, and researchers--pioneers who have taken far more risks than I have. And I continue to learn more every day. I promise you, there are hundreds, maybe thousands more just like me, and we are growing. One day, you won't be able to keep up with squelching us, even on these forums.
Another piece of science, insulin resistance means your cells don't respond to the insulin as well as they should which leads to more being produced to reach the desired effect, meaning the effcts of it get diminished. All effects.
In other news, water is also wet.1 -
@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/0 -
@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.9 -
It would be interesting to compare the Biggest Loser folks' BMRs to those who lost similar amounts of weight using less extreme deficits. It says that one person had a daily goal deficit of 3500. How does his BMR compare to a person who lost using much more moderate (or even low) deficit and who took diet breaks, etc?
I agree. It's not too surprising that creating a daily 3500 calorie deficit might damage someone's metabolism (and general health). The main question, for me, would be does someone on a more sensible - and slower - weight loss plan suffer the same effects.4 -
AuroraGeorge8393 wrote: »It would be interesting to compare the Biggest Loser folks' BMRs to those who lost similar amounts of weight using less extreme deficits. It says that one person had a daily goal deficit of 3500. How does his BMR compare to a person who lost using much more moderate (or even low) deficit and who took diet breaks, etc?
I agree. It's not too surprising that creating a daily 3500 calorie deficit might damage someone's metabolism (and general health). The main question, for me, would be does someone on a more sensible - and slower - weight loss plan suffer the same effects.
There's also been the issue raised in many articles critical of the study that the participants reduced their caloric intake and increased exercise while being monitored during the study. There was evidence in the data points for that. The study is absolutely useless.1 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Also do you know why insulin "inhibits lipolysis"?
Because if it's high it means you've just eaten and have plenty of energy available in your blood stream.
Calories.
@Stevencloser
yeah, maybe--if you're healthy. Or maybe it's high because your cells are insulin resistant and you haven't actually eaten in hours.
Science.If your theories get regularly shot down by others it should tell you something about yourself.
Your statement actually tells me a whole lot more about you.
And please don't give me so much credit, Steven! These are not my theories. I just read reliable evidence from doctors, nutritionists, and researchers--pioneers who have taken far more risks than I have. And I continue to learn more every day. I promise you, there are hundreds, maybe thousands more just like me, and we are growing. One day, you won't be able to keep up with squelching us, even on these forums.
Another piece of science, insulin resistance means your cells don't respond to the insulin as well as they should which leads to more being produced to reach the desired effect, meaning the effcts of it get diminished. All effects.
In other news, water is also wet.
You didn't get the implication? Okay, I'll tell you.
If the effects on the cells are diminished, so is the lipolysis inhibition. Meaning the higher resting insulin levels do absolutely nothing apart from being there.6 -
NotSoPerfectPam wrote: »The study shows that their metabolism is PERMANENTLY altered.
Sooooo, they were able to change their metabolism from where it was to something "damaged" but they can never change it again?
Disagree.Metabolic rate is simply a measure of efficiency for one's body. There are certain generalities that are consistent for MOST everyone, which is where you get standard BMR calculations. You also know that a body responds to stimulus and changes over time to adapt, but not in really big ways unless there is a medical need. So damaged metabolisms just does not add up. The stress of losing weight too fast for a show might temporarily mess things up, but proper diet and exercise (if maintained) would level things out.
Weird.
3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.0 -
stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »Also do you know why insulin "inhibits lipolysis"?
Because if it's high it means you've just eaten and have plenty of energy available in your blood stream.
Calories.
@Stevencloser
yeah, maybe--if you're healthy. Or maybe it's high because your cells are insulin resistant and you haven't actually eaten in hours.
Science.If your theories get regularly shot down by others it should tell you something about yourself.
Your statement actually tells me a whole lot more about you.
And please don't give me so much credit, Steven! These are not my theories. I just read reliable evidence from doctors, nutritionists, and researchers--pioneers who have taken far more risks than I have. And I continue to learn more every day. I promise you, there are hundreds, maybe thousands more just like me, and we are growing. One day, you won't be able to keep up with squelching us, even on these forums.
Another piece of science, insulin resistance means your cells don't respond to the insulin as well as they should which leads to more being produced to reach the desired effect, meaning the effcts of it get diminished. All effects.
In other news, water is also wet.
You didn't get the implication? Okay, I'll tell you.
If the effects on the cells are diminished, so is the lipolysis inhibition. Meaning the higher resting insulin levels do absolutely nothing apart from being there.
Where do you come up with this stuff? In that case insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes would not be a progressive disease. However, it is and does progress to the point of total beta cell destruction and the inability to make any insulin.0 -
@Stevencloser
Sorry, your idea that all effects are inhibited seems pretty obvious to me. This would help explain why diabetics strangely have elevated blood levels of free fatty acids in the presence of elevated glucose. Since another role of insulin is to selectively stimulate lipoprotein lipase (an enzyme which hydrolyzes triglycerides in circulating lipoproteins) in fat tissue to uptake triglycerides (while also inhibiting in skeletal muscle). Inhibiting the effect and stopping it are 2 different things. But the idea that they cancel each other is nonsensical to me. The system is damaged system and backed up at all levels, and the result is disease.
Additionally, as the disease of type 2 diabetes progresses, people may be resistant to gaining weight, but I wasn't aware of any end point for obesity... I mean, the human body can clearly keep filling up adipose tissue to the point of extreme morbid obesity as we see in certain cases more and more today (500+ lbs). Of course, if the pancreas does eventually becomes totally destroyed, these people would stop gaining weight, go into diabetic ketoacidosis, and if untreated, die.
Did you have any evidence to support your conjecture?0 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »@Crisseyda that's exactly the point.
The insulin hypothesis of obesity doesn't hold up well against scientific evidence and his overly simplistic explanations sound more like extrapolations, taking a basic mechanism and drawing unrelated conclusions from it that I don't find particularly pertinent.
Low carb is not particularly any more or less muscle sparing than any other diet if you control for protein and I have yet to see any consistent evidence that people with higher carb intake/insulin are particularly more prone to gaining fat than those on a lower carb/with lower insulin.
TBL contestants were most likely low carb, in addition to being effectively in a ketogenic state due to their 4-6 hours a day exercise routine which would leave anyone on a 800ish calorie diet in a ketogenic state, even if every single one of these calories came from carbs.
Do you have any access to this evidence?
Dr. Fung shares clear scientific evidence that calorie restricted diets lower BMR and that fasting does not. He then explains the science behind it, which you can find in any physiology textbook. Insulin does in fact inhibit lypolysis--known fact.
http://itarget.com.br/newclients/sbgg.com.br/informativos/14-09-15/1.pdfKH wrote:This study demonstrated that, calorie for calorie, restriction of dietary fat led to greater body fat loss than restriction of dietary carbohydrate in adults with obesity. This occurred despite the fact that only the carbohydrate-restricted diet led to decreased insulin secretion and a substantial sustained increase in net fat oxidation compared to the baseline energy-balanced diet.
In contrast to previous claims about a metabolic advantage of carbohydrate restriction for enhancing body fat loss (Ludwig and Friedman, 2014; Taubes, 2007, 2011; Westman et al., 2007), our data and model simulations support the opposite conclusion when comparing the RF and RC diets. Furthermore, we can definitively reject the claim that carbohydrate restriction is required for body fat loss (Taubes, 2011).
3 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »@amusedmonkey
I think you might enjoy this article by Dr. Fung entitled, "The Carbohydrate Insulin Hypothesis is Wrong." It made me think of you and how you seemed so stuck on defending carbohydrates. I guess you've been exposed to this theory and found problems with it? Well, I wasn't talking about that theory; hence, my confusion as to why you kept simplifying the discussion... anyway... you might find you agree with him more than you initially thought.
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/carbohydrate-insulin-hypothesis-wrong-hormonal-obesity-vi/
Yes, that was the theory I'm against but I also don't agree with his hypothesis. He is mixing cause and effect. Obese people are more likely to be insulin resistant due to obesity, not the other way around. When people lose weight, regardless of diet, they tend to become less insulin resistant. Case in point: from borderline diabetic to low average blood sugar values, and all it took was weight loss without much of a change in the amount or the type of carbohydrates I consume.
You should read up on the. Obesity doesn't cause insulin resistance; insulin does. Researchers can infuse healthy people with physiologic levels of insulin and induce insulin resistance fairly quickly. Many many diabetics are not obese; they can even be thin! He has a great lecture on that on his intensive dietary management blog. Additionally, he heals his type 2 diabetics by reducing their insulin levels through diet and fasting regimen.
And many many obese people are not insulin resistance as demonstrated by the fact that 66% + of the US population is overweight or obese, but not all of them are diabetic.
There are several hormones to cause the body to store fat... insulin is only one of them.2
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