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Why do people overeat and/or become obese? Is it harder than average for some to lose weight?
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I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
OK. There seem to be some people who understand well how calories and cico work but they still can't do it.
Do you agree?
Truly can't? I don't agree. Haven't yet figured out how to, given their particular issues/the causes for their overeating? Sure.6 -
alyssa_rest wrote: »The_Enginerd wrote: »alyssa_rest wrote: »I don't know if there is a right answer. One thing I've learned through my own struggle and research is that your body craves nutrients. When it feels as though it is lacking one, it demands more. When you have had what is required, you become full. That is why eating one chicken breast and steamed veggies will fill you up quicker and for a longer time period than indulging in an entire bag of chips.
Are there any studies that back this up? I've heard this several times, but never seen any references to back this line of thinking up.
I'd argue the that chicken breast and veggies are more filling because:
1. More protein, which is filling
2. More fiber, which is filling
3. More volume per calorie, which is more filling
4. Not as tasty, so you are less likely to keep eating beyond hunger.
Well, you pretty much helped explain my point. Protein is filling, fiber is filling. I could eat 300 calories of chicken and veggies or 300 calories of chips. Which would make me feel full and satisfy me? The chicken and veggies. Hence why I think nutrients are helpful to curb hunger and stay within your calorie goals. Not saying anyone needs to go and start counting macros, because that doesn't always fit for everyone. This is from me reading more about how the body works in regards to breaking down food into energy. I could find the book I read if it would help?
This works for me. I'm not a fan of chips myself, but for sure, eating chicken and veg, I couldn't overeat on it. I can't even eat 500 calories at one meal of chicken and veg. I could eat over 500 calories of cheesecake however. Maybe I mght even want seconds on th cheese cake. So for me, I don't eat cheese cake very often. I do eat chcken and veg often, about once a week.
Fish, we have fresh caught here, so trout, salmon, bass, sole baked in the oven with veg is our average main meal of the day.
I doubt my calorie counting would go as well on pizza, chips, cheese cake. jmo
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
The bolded part makes me wonder how many people who believe they are "outliers" think they have a uniquely hard time with losing because they believe that "normal" people can naturally eat at maintenance if they just decide to?4 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
OK. There seem to be some people who understand well how calories and cico work but they still can't do it.
Do you agree?
Truly can't? I don't agree. Haven't yet figured out how to, given their particular issues/the causes for their overeating? Sure.
Qualified word "can't" ..... I meant can't in every and any sense that can't could mean.
So, you don't agree that some people can't follow cico and make it work for them?
Just getting your opinion, not being rude.
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One of the things I came across in the forums when I first started MFP was the old chestnut 'Weight loss is simple, but it's not easy'. The concept of CICO isn't rocket science; people need to be aware that there are individual variations to both sides of the CICO equation - but still, with a little determination, pretty simple.
The hard part for me, and I suspect quite a few that argue that weight-loss isn't as simple as just CICO, was the emotional component that triggered overeating. There are many such triggers, and until the individual becomes aware of their specific trigger(s), understands their impact, and is able to formulate a plan to address them, it will remain difficult.
So while I get that 'put down the fork' is technically all that needs to be done, if there's an underlying emotional component, putting down the fork won't be easy.
Weight-loss is 90% mental.15 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
Why on earth would this be flagged? It's true for some, maybe not most but...more than I used to realize. I see it all the time. People fall prey to the diet industry. Take this pill, drink this shake, and you too can look like the model we photographed in someone else's pants to look like she lost this weight and became hot. People are not taught in school (at least I wasn't) about the macro breakdown of calories, or about portion sizes, etc. Also (and I'm speaking from the US perspective), our society tells us food fixes everything. You're sad? Eat chocolate. You need to celebrate? Look at all these really attractive, popular, happy people partying with their coke bottles. Not to mention portion sizes blown out of proportion. Restaurants, buffets, take out...it's all about convenience in the US, no one has patience to cook a healthy meal anymore. And then people are surprised when this lifestyle results in so many people reaching such proportions that we have travesties of tv shows like Biggest loser and my 600 lb life.2 -
People are their own worst enemies and tend to both judge others by standards they themselves don't hold, while ignoring their own issues. I agree with some that say most people don't know how calories work and they buy into "science marketing", but I think even not knowing how calories work they do know they eat too much. Again, it is that they don't care or come up with all kinds of excuses, theories, etc of why they are overweight.
A big part of the is a certain psychosis, where people think they are losing something they NEED, in an addiction way. They just can't see themselves NOT going out for big meals, lots of drinks, and "chilling" often. So that immediately puts them at a disadvantage to change and improve.5 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
OK. There seem to be some people who understand well how calories and cico work but they still can't do it.
Do you agree?
There are those who get CICO and choose not to apply their knowledge to their weight loss...
Not all but a lot of people can lose weight if they apply the knowledge...they don't apply it for whatever reason.I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
But...what if they do?
I was overweight, I still am by many standards. I surly know how calories work. I fully understand the concepts of CICO. I also understand the consequences of overeating. I have struggled with weight my entire life. It was necessary for me to learn about these things early on. There are many like me. Why didn't this knowledge help us to lose the weight and maintain weight loss?
you tell me? you know how to lose weight? is it a choice to ignore the knowledge? I personally don't believe in food addiction of any sort...
I know that there are mental health issues involved in a lot of food related issues and once those are dealt with the weight comes off...2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.3 -
I know for me... I got fat.. because I was simply under the impression that I could continue to eat as though I was leading an active lifestyle... over the course of 10+ years... I was gaining an ounce or 2 every month... then one day I looked in the mirror and said to myself.. "wait a minute... what the F did you do to yourself???" It's kind of like watching your hair grow... you don't actually see it...or feel it... but one day you look in the mirror and realize... time to get it done...unfortunately for some that light don't come on as quickly as it does for others...9
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htimpaired wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
Why on earth would this be flagged? It's true for some, maybe not most but...more than I used to realize. I see it all the time. People fall prey to the diet industry. Take this pill, drink this shake, and you too can look like the model we photographed in someone else's pants to look like she lost this weight and became hot. People are not taught in school (at least I wasn't) about the macro breakdown of calories, or about portion sizes, etc. Also (and I'm speaking from the US perspective), our society tells us food fixes everything. You're sad? Eat chocolate. You need to celebrate? Look at all these really attractive, popular, happy people partying with their coke bottles. Not to mention portion sizes blown out of proportion. Restaurants, buffets, take out...it's all about convenience in the US, no one has patience to cook a healthy meal anymore. And then people are surprised when this lifestyle results in so many people reaching such proportions that we have travesties of tv shows like Biggest loser and my 600 lb life.
I think you would be surprised at how many don't know...I was surprised at even the smartest people saying "CICO doesn't work for everyone...." or " I shouldn't eat at night...", "I can only eat 1200 calories or I gain" and the list goes on...
We are not taught in schools in Canada either...health class is about sex and STD's etc.
and the diet industry, doctor oz, green coffee bean extract, shakology, jenny craig, ww (not counting fruit/veggies) smh.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
What does it truly mean if not; determining the calories of current intake and eating less than that; or determining caloric output and eating less than that?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
The bolded part makes me wonder how many people who believe they are "outliers" think they have a uniquely hard time with losing because they believe that "normal" people can naturally eat at maintenance if they just decide to?
My impression is that lots of people think this, yeah, and assume that if they didn't have something wrong with them (or weren't unfairly unlucky) they'd be able to too.
I used to think that because when I was young it was true -- my activity and eating habits lined up well. After I gained weight and had to put some thought into understanding why that was I started being more observant of others and now think it's less common than not for someone to be able to maintain in this environment without being at least somewhat mindful or making an effort to be active (or having a naturally active lifestyle).2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
OK. There seem to be some people who understand well how calories and cico work but they still can't do it.
Do you agree?
Truly can't? I don't agree. Haven't yet figured out how to, given their particular issues/the causes for their overeating? Sure.
Qualified word "can't" ..... I meant can't in every and any sense that can't could mean.
So, you don't agree that some people can't follow cico and make it work for them?
Just getting your opinion, not being rude.
I wouldn't say no one, but I think it's rare if they really tried, and had it as a priority. I think that certain medical conditions can prevent you from being able to until they are taken care of (clinical depression, eating disorders), and I think it's extremely common for someone to just decide (even if not consciously) that the tradeoff isn't worth it (even someone who also claims to hate being overweight).
That said, I agree with those who say it is not easy, and depending on circumstances can be especially hard. I also think it requires a plan and an understanding of why you are overeating. BUT I think that the power is within us to figure that out.4 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
OK. There seem to be some people who understand well how calories and cico work but they still can't do it.
Do you agree?
There are those who get CICO and choose not to apply their knowledge to their weight loss...
Not all but a lot of people can lose weight if they apply the knowledge...they don't apply it for whatever reason.I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
But...what if they do?
I was overweight, I still am by many standards. I surly know how calories work. I fully understand the concepts of CICO. I also understand the consequences of overeating. I have struggled with weight my entire life. It was necessary for me to learn about these things early on. There are many like me. Why didn't this knowledge help us to lose the weight and maintain weight loss?
you tell me? you know how to lose weight? is it a choice to ignore the knowledge? I personally don't believe in food addiction of any sort...
I understand your belief. I'm saying your explanation of "Lack of knowledge" does not adequately explain the phenomenon.I know that there are mental health issues involved in a lot of food related issues and once those are dealt with the weight comes off...
Call it what you want. The approach to a solution is still the same.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available. Overeating studies show this in action -- after a certain point people just won't/can't eat anymore. And as soon as the forced overfeeding stops their weight quickly returns to normal. That's the brain regulating that.
I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.0 -
alyssa_rest wrote: »I don't know if there is a right answer. One thing I've learned through my own struggle and research is that your body craves nutrients. When it feels as though it is lacking one, it demands more. When you have had what is required, you become full. That is why eating one chicken breast and steamed veggies will fill you up quicker and for a longer time period than indulging in an entire bag of chips. Doesn't mean it tastes better though, haha! CICO does work. It's scientifically proven and no one can argue that. I think that many people are totally unaware of how effective it is. And yes, you can eat "healthy foods" all you want. It is easy to even over-eat what's deemed as "healthy" as well. Those uneducated on CICO don't understand that. Or maybe they even don't WANT to understand.
please teach me how to crave celery8 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
The bolded part makes me wonder how many people who believe they are "outliers" think they have a uniquely hard time with losing because they believe that "normal" people can naturally eat at maintenance if they just decide to?
A fair number, judging by the comments I've gotten since hitting goal weight.
There's just such a variety of reasons people overeat. I feel lucky that my only issues are having a sedentary job and being a foodie - I want to try all the foods!
But I don't have a problem if I'm just mindful of what I'm eating and don't try to lose too fast while I'm exercising hard (because that leads to serious overeating).
There are those that were conditioned to overeat by habits growing up, those that subconsciously want to be overweight as a protection against being noticed, those that have zero idea about how to lose weight, those who eat as self-medication, those that have what seems to be a kind of obsessive compulsive disorder centered around eating, and many more, I'm sure.
Still, it does really come down to "put the fork down". It's just that figuring out how to do that is not necessarily simple or obvious.8 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
That's fine.
Are you saying I lack education or the people I am talking about lack education. What education is lacking?
I think the majority of people who are overweight/obese lack education in anything food related.
I watched an episode of my 600lb life...the guy gained weight and the doctor was asking why? the patient said "I don't know I should be losing I switched out my white bread for whole wheat"....seriously.
And based on my own experience I knew about calories from being a teenager and having my mother diet all the time...but had no clue on how to lose weight and maintain...
I could lose like a demon...but gain it back.
diet books, diet websites, diet pills, diet programs aka WW etc...all teach people how to lose but not how to maintain...
and as adults if we weren't taught about nutrition and calories how do we teach our kids??????
So, you're basically saying people with weight problems do not know lack education on how to maintain?
No what I am saying is most people have no idea how calories work.
I'm not sure I believe this is true of most. It doesn't seem to mesh with the number of posts asking "why can't I stop overeating" or "how do I stop binge eating" or "how do I break my addiction to sugar"
To me these sound more like issues with control of cravings than a lack of knowledge that too many calories are being consumed.
This is a very small sample tho...I do firmly believe based on my own life most don't understand calories.
If they did there wouldn't be statements of CICO doesn't work for everyone and there wouldn't be this large diet industry preying on people...
Sure they get the concept of I need to eat fewer calories but when it comes down to it they have no idea what that truly means...
But I feel like this is going to get into "food addiction" area and I am not into that debate.
MFP is a very small sample but your own life is not? How many people do you know intimately enough to know why they got fat?
We are all addicted to food. It's a necessity.6 -
Alluminati wrote: »alyssa_rest wrote: »I don't know if there is a right answer. One thing I've learned through my own struggle and research is that your body craves nutrients. When it feels as though it is lacking one, it demands more. When you have had what is required, you become full. That is why eating one chicken breast and steamed veggies will fill you up quicker and for a longer time period than indulging in an entire bag of chips. Doesn't mean it tastes better though, haha! CICO does work. It's scientifically proven and no one can argue that. I think that many people are totally unaware of how effective it is. And yes, you can eat "healthy foods" all you want. It is easy to even over-eat what's deemed as "healthy" as well. Those uneducated on CICO don't understand that. Or maybe they even don't WANT to understand.
please teach me how to crave celery
maybe I should have substituted crave for need. sorry for the misunderstanding.1
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