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Why do people overeat and/or become obese? Is it harder than average for some to lose weight?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
My argument is simply that eating to the point of obesity is not normal or natural in those with a healthy, normal appetite regardless of the food environment.
First, we are talking about eating above maintenance (overweight and obese, not just obese). How are you defining "normal and natural"? If a majority of people do it, it seems to be normal and natural, IMO.
I agree...in caveman days they ate as much as they could when they had it...built up fat stores to survive lean times.
Animals do it...so why is it not "natural" for humans?2 -
@SezxyStef Looks like you have a fan!
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I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
^^ simply saying it's a lack of education is also grossly incorrect. IMO. Trust me, I'm educated. Very much so in nutritional, exercise etc. But doesn't make it any easier to control that "excessive eating." Not in the slightest. I think unless you've REALLY had an issue with food? It's perhaps easier to say "that person is simply not educated" when in fact, that might only be a sliver of the issue.
knowing how to lose weight (which I don't think a lot know really how to do it) and applying it are two different things.
and my question is this how many people "REALLY" have an issue with food? or is it other issues like self esteem or mental disorder?
I have lost 118 pounds and kept it off for over 2 years. Even now, I know all about CICO, and I still believe I REALLY have an issue with food.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
people eat because they can...as long as the food is there and available people will eat even when they aren't hungry because it tastes good.
I got fat because it tasted good and I wanted it...
I would get fat cut it all out, lose the weight and gain it because due to not understanding how food, all food, made us fat if we ate too much.
I get it now...
Yeah, I think this is how many (perfectly normal and healthy) people are.0 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
^^ simply saying it's a lack of education is also grossly incorrect. IMO. Trust me, I'm educated. Very much so in nutritional, exercise etc. But doesn't make it any easier to control that "excessive eating." Not in the slightest. I think unless you've REALLY had an issue with food? It's perhaps easier to say "that person is simply not educated" when in fact, that might only be a sliver of the issue.
knowing how to lose weight (which I don't think a lot know really how to do it) and applying it are two different things.
and my question is this how many people "REALLY" have an issue with food? or is it other issues like self esteem or mental disorder?
I have lost 118 pounds and kept it off for over 2 years. Even now, I know all about CICO, and I still believe I REALLY have an issue with food.
And what is your issue with food? and did it stop you from losing the weight and maintaining?....no so is it really an issue?2 -
but they are...I can't tell you about everyone else but I'll tell you what goes on with me.
For me, not all calories from all foods are equal. What I get out of a hardboiled egg is much different than a piece of toast with peanut butter, and I don't mean just the basic nutritional value of it. What comes with that toast is the "need" or "strong urge" to have more. I'll eat one piece and want another. I might be ok after that, but in a couple hours I'll want some other fix from a bowl of cereal or something.
And I mean, why not right? We see it all the time on TV. "Part of a balanced breakfast!" Pictured a huge glass of orange juice, a giant bowl of cereal and two pieces of toast. So we see it constantly on TV and think, ok, that's what I should be eating.
Well.. for me, that's wrong. That glass of OJ will cause massive sugar cravings and will actually make me more hungry than before I even drank it. I could easily eat two bowls of cereal and my mind will still think, we should have fruit too.
But - if I eat something else, like eggs with bacon, I'm good until the afternoon. If I eat a baked chicken breast with broccoli and butter, I'm full and don't feel the need to get anything else. I don't have that switch, that craving to tell me to get more.
It's not just "putting down the fork". It's re-evaluating what you're eating and the patterns foods and cravings have on you.
How you feel after you eat them might not be the same as other people but you know what it sort of it.
We all know protein and fats keep you feeling fuller longer because of the length of time to digest them...
Carbs/startches not so much so chances are you will be hungrier if you just eat those for a meal.
For me if I eat an apple when I am hungry...yah forget that...I am even more hungry in about 10 mins so I go for the yogurt...
so it's not really a "craving" per say...it's your body digesting carbs faster than protein..totally normal.
Do we?
Are we told that when all this crap is airing on TV?
Of course the people on these boards know that, you and I know that, but do the general public know that carbs are digested differently than protein or fats? All people know is calories, calories, calories. We are told by people "oh, just eat less, cut calories, walk more" but not told a lot about WHICH nutrients to add and which to take away.
To be clear, I agree with your points, but disagree that the general population is aware of how greatly macros affect them. We define them as cravings but the question of the thread is, why are we craving more and more? Why can't we stop? We are not only eating the wrong foods (ice cream, chips, obvious ones) but also can be unaware of the carb/starches in healthy seeming food like fruit that are making us hungrier after eating them.6 -
I can't tell you about everyone else but I'll tell you what goes on with me.
For me, not all calories from all foods are equal. What I get out of a hardboiled egg is much different than a piece of toast with peanut butter, and I don't mean just the basic nutritional value of it. What comes with that toast is the "need" or "strong urge" to have more. I'll eat one piece and want another. I might be ok after that, but in a couple hours I'll want some other fix from a bowl of cereal or something.
And I mean, why not right? We see it all the time on TV. "Part of a balanced breakfast!" Pictured a huge glass of orange juice, a giant bowl of cereal and two pieces of toast. So we see it constantly on TV and think, ok, that's what I should be eating.
Well.. for me, that's wrong. That glass of OJ will cause massive sugar cravings and will actually make me more hungry than before I even drank it. I could easily eat two bowls of cereal and my mind will still think, we should have fruit too.
But - if I eat something else, like eggs with bacon, I'm good until the afternoon. If I eat a baked chicken breast with broccoli and butter, I'm full and don't feel the need to get anything else. I don't have that switch, that craving to tell me to get more.
It's not just "putting down the fork". It's re-evaluating what you're eating and the patterns foods and cravings have on you.
I think figuring out why you are overeating and, if it's actually hunger, how to eat to avoid hunger is part of and even implicit in "put down the fork."
(I wouldn't actually say that phrase to someone, of course.)1 -
This thread is brilliant, and really interesting and thought-provoking.
I have skimmed through some of the responses and they all vary so much, which is what I would expect as there are as many reasons as there are people in the world who have had this issue.
For me, it was a right mixed bag of reasons.
As a child I always felt a need to finish everything on my plate to please my parents (a common theme on this thread I see) and I was chubby.
Growing into my teenage years I was normal-sized, but still felt as though I was chubby. So I started severely restricting how much I ate until I wasn't anorexic, but I did have a lower-than-safe BMI. My Dad gave me a wake-up call and I started eating more normally again, and I enjoyed a period where I was a good weight and moderately active.
I finished my degree and started working in food new product development - I had to taste test an awful lot of sample products each day and I still wanted my own choices of food at mealtimes, but the work was very physical and I used to go to the gym and out dancing a lot too. So my weight started to creep up, but very slowly really.
I left the food industry, got a desk job, and BOOM! The weight suddenly piled on as I was still eating as much as I used to (I had developed a huge appetite) but was very sedentary.
Throw into the mix a fear of being hungry that has come and gone over the years, and issues with anxiety and depression that have at times left me not wanting to take care of myself, and I had a recipe for disaster. Even though the majority of food I ate was reasonably healthy, I was eating far too much and exercising far too little.
Dad gave me my second wake-up call last year, when he had a chat with me about his concerns for my health. He explained that he was genuinely concerned that I may develop Type-2 diabetes or another preventable obesity-related illnesses. I listened to him and went straight on track the next day.
Now I exercise regularly, moderate my portion sizes and pay close attention to whether I am really hungry or just wanting to comfort eat/boredom eat/eat because something looks really good.
MyFitnessPal has been amazing in helping me to make the right choices so I feel full on the calories I am allocated, and I really do weigh and measure everything and carefully track my activity.
I am almost at my goal weight having lost 5st 10lbs since May 2015, but I think it will be a long time before I could start to trust myself to eat sensibly without holding myself accountable to a food and exercise diary. So I will be using MyFitnessPal for as long as I need that support.
For me, holding myself accountable for my actions is key to maintaining not just a healthy weight, but a healthy lifestyle in the long term.9 -
but they are...I can't tell you about everyone else but I'll tell you what goes on with me.
For me, not all calories from all foods are equal. What I get out of a hardboiled egg is much different than a piece of toast with peanut butter, and I don't mean just the basic nutritional value of it. What comes with that toast is the "need" or "strong urge" to have more. I'll eat one piece and want another. I might be ok after that, but in a couple hours I'll want some other fix from a bowl of cereal or something.
And I mean, why not right? We see it all the time on TV. "Part of a balanced breakfast!" Pictured a huge glass of orange juice, a giant bowl of cereal and two pieces of toast. So we see it constantly on TV and think, ok, that's what I should be eating.
Well.. for me, that's wrong. That glass of OJ will cause massive sugar cravings and will actually make me more hungry than before I even drank it. I could easily eat two bowls of cereal and my mind will still think, we should have fruit too.
But - if I eat something else, like eggs with bacon, I'm good until the afternoon. If I eat a baked chicken breast with broccoli and butter, I'm full and don't feel the need to get anything else. I don't have that switch, that craving to tell me to get more.
It's not just "putting down the fork". It's re-evaluating what you're eating and the patterns foods and cravings have on you.
How you feel after you eat them might not be the same as other people but you know what it sort of it.
We all know protein and fats keep you feeling fuller longer because of the length of time to digest them...
Carbs/startches not so much so chances are you will be hungrier if you just eat those for a meal.
For me if I eat an apple when I am hungry...yah forget that...I am even more hungry in about 10 mins so I go for the yogurt...
so it's not really a "craving" per say...it's your body digesting carbs faster than protein..totally normal.
Do we?
Are we told that when all this crap is airing on TV?
Of course the people on these boards know that, you and I know that, but do the general public know that carbs are digested differently than protein or fats? All people know is calories, calories, calories. We are told by people "oh, just eat less, cut calories, walk more" but not told a lot about WHICH nutrients to add and which to take away.
To be clear, I agree with your points, but disagree that the general population is aware of how greatly macros affect them. We define them as cravings but the question of the thread is, why are we craving more and more? Why can't we stop? We are not only eating the wrong foods (ice cream, chips, obvious ones) but also can be unaware of the carb/starches in healthy seeming food like fruit that are making us hungrier after eating them.
and that has been my point all along.
People know they have to reduce their intake to lose weight but that's it....
lack of education causes a lot of overeating and gaining and well to be blunt fatness.6 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
^^ simply saying it's a lack of education is also grossly incorrect. IMO. Trust me, I'm educated. Very much so in nutritional, exercise etc. But doesn't make it any easier to control that "excessive eating." Not in the slightest. I think unless you've REALLY had an issue with food? It's perhaps easier to say "that person is simply not educated" when in fact, that might only be a sliver of the issue.
knowing how to lose weight (which I don't think a lot know really how to do it) and applying it are two different things.
and my question is this how many people "REALLY" have an issue with food? or is it other issues like self esteem or mental disorder?
I have lost 118 pounds and kept it off for over 2 years. Even now, I know all about CICO, and I still believe I REALLY have an issue with food.
Thank you for sharing this! Honest question: What advice would be helpful to people such as yourself, in addition to CICO?1 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
My argument is simply that eating to the point of obesity is not normal or natural in those with a healthy, normal appetite regardless of the food environment.
How are you defining "normal and natural"? If a majority of people do it, it seems to be normal and natural, IMO.
That would be common to my mind, not normal. In other words, working as intended.
But there is no "intended" here. In many ways, eating food when it's available is a product of evolution, in all likelihood, and either useful or neutral in the conditions that prevailed for most of human history, so that a majority seem to do it easily if they don't take precautions against it is hardly surprising.
If a majority of people do it and they are generally otherwise healthy, how is that not normal?2 -
7 flags on this page alone. Someone needs to reread the ToS.5
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MissusMoon wrote: »7 flags on this page alone. Someone needs to reread the ToS.
wait for it I posted a couple more times...that number should go up.1 -
MissusMoon wrote: »7 flags on this page alone. Someone needs to reread the ToS.
You are too kind!0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
My argument is simply that eating to the point of obesity is not normal or natural in those with a healthy, normal appetite regardless of the food environment.
How are you defining "normal and natural"? If a majority of people do it, it seems to be normal and natural, IMO.
That would be common to my mind, not normal. In other words, working as intended.
But there is no "intended" here. In many ways, eating food when it's available is a product of evolution, in all likelihood, and either useful or neutral in the conditions that prevailed for most of human history, so that a majority seem to do it easily if they don't take precautions against it is hardly surprising.
If a majority of people do it and they are generally otherwise healthy, how is that not normal?
I don't believe that. I know you do, but I don't. Like I said earlier, I believe our old norms surrounding food are intended to maintain a normal, working appetite. An appetite that if working correctly does not allow for obesity/dangerous level of fatness.0 -
On different threads I've seen people saying that weight loss is more complex than CICO. I don't think they all mean that CICO doesn't work (though a few do); I suspect they're trying to say that, for them, either Calories In is harder to limit or that Calories Out is harder to achieve than for the average person.
Addressing this in particular: there are two "CICO doesn't work for me" groups. One group treats "CICO" as a name for counting calories, and what they really mean is "I had to find another strategy because counting calories alone didn't work." Then there's the group that truly believes they're somehow defying thermodynamics.
For the first group, there's a lot of reasons. They didn't adjust their macros for satiety, so they were hungry all the time and ended up overeating. They're emotional eaters and kept blowing out their calorie goal because they didn't address the root of their issue. They have trigger foods but didn't alter their environment or diet to make avoiding triggers easier. They tried to eat too "clean" and ended up binging on foods they missed. They tried to cut too many calories and binged because they were so hungry.
For the second group, there's always one side of the equation that's not being tallied correctly. They swear they're only eating 1200 calories, but their estimation of CI is terrible. They overestimate their exercise burn or activity level. A medical condition is making TDEE much lower than a calculator spits out. They try a fad like South Beach, paleo, etc. without really understanding it's the calories, not the food type.
What both groups, and anyone who's tried to lose weight and failed, can have in common is the feeling that you're doing everything right, or trying so hard to do everything right, and it's just not working. Since it's not working, you must have a harder time than everyone else when it comes to losing weight. You're an outlier. There must be a reason you're staying fat. It's really, really difficult to put so much effort into something and fail, so people rationalize it to make themselves feel better. "Put down the fork" can seem insensitive or hollow - they tried putting down the fork and still didn't lose (because their strategy was wrong or knowledge was lacking).18 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »AlabasterVerve wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I really don't find it particularly surprising that people overeat and gain weight, and I certainly don't think it's contrary to CICO in any way. Nor do I think it makes "put down the fork" bad advice, although I know it can be challenging for lots of reasons.
We evolved in circumstances in which not having enough food was an issue and surplus food was not, and where we were required to be active. Throughout human history (until quite recently) activity was necessary and scarcity was the main concern, and on top of that all cultures had customs and rituals that regulated eating in some way (similar to how other basic urges, like sex, are regulated by culture). It was beneficial for humans, also, to be able to eat when food was available and go without when not, such that we can adapt to not eating/eating little for a period of time (periods of scarcity) and eat more than we need immediately when food is available. As a result, the assumption by some that a healthy human won't eat more than maintenance naturally is questionable -- why would we have evolved to prevent something that was not an issue? It's amazing how out bodies adapt to keep an equilibrium as is.
So given all that, put us in a situation of abundance, with food around at all times that we don't even have to prepare ourselves if we don't want to, a culture that says "eat whenever you feel like it, and for pure pleasure, not for hunger or according to overarching culture," I think it's completely unsurprising that many people overeat and gain weight. It's normal for humans to feel desire to eat tasty and available food when it is present and therefore in the mind. Not everyone feels that way, but that it's common, not surprising.
Add to this that many humans are bad with short term vs. long term tradeoffs -- yeah, overeating will keep you fat and eating less will allow for lost weight, but that will take a long time and it's easy to think one day or one meal won't matter and keep repeating that. And that's even before taking into account how easy it is to use any form of pleasure in a distorted or misplaced way, the power of habit, cultural associations with food (reminds me of a happy occasion or some such), and before worrying about actual messed up relationships with food and weight (which I think often feed into a cycle).
A human with a healthy appetite won't eat more than the body needs though even with abundant, delicious food available.
I'm not sure I am following your argument, but reality disproves this -- a majority of people do when food is abundant and cheap, as currently.
Overfeeding studies involve people who are not overweight, but you can't claim only those people are "healthy."I believe our mores around food evolved to protect the appetite - not to prevent overeating per se. Feasting, eating until full, "making room" for dessert are the exact opposite of not overeating and they were all part of a healthy eating pattern.
I don't think they evolved to avoid overeating (as that was not much of a problem until recently except among a small subset), but they operated to do so. One reason I didn't gain weight or think much about food between meals when growing up -- no matter what I ate -- was that you ate at mealtime. Even after I gained weight I took a trip to Nicaragua where we were doing lots of physical activity and busy all day and had no opportunities to eat except at regular meals (which were high carb/low protein compared to how I ate back home). I never thought about food, again, except at meals and ate smaller portions than at home (eating with other people when fat does this sometimes), and wasn't hungry at all. I think it was that food just wasn't available otherwise.If you truly overeat at one meal you naturally eat less at another and it all balances out. Providing you have a normal appetite.
Again, this is contrary to reality, as a majority of people seem to eat above maintenance sufficiently to become overweight.
My argument is simply that eating to the point of obesity is not normal or natural in those with a healthy, normal appetite regardless of the food environment.
How are you defining "normal and natural"? If a majority of people do it, it seems to be normal and natural, IMO.
That would be common to my mind, not normal. In other words, working as intended.
But there is no "intended" here. In many ways, eating food when it's available is a product of evolution, in all likelihood, and either useful or neutral in the conditions that prevailed for most of human history, so that a majority seem to do it easily if they don't take precautions against it is hardly surprising.
If a majority of people do it and they are generally otherwise healthy, how is that not normal?
I don't believe that. I know you do, but I don't. Like I said earlier, I believe our old norms surrounding food are intended to maintain a normal, working appetite. An appetite that if working correctly does not allow for obesity/dangerous level of fatness.
What don't you believe? That a majority of people do it? (That part seems unavoidable given the percentage of people who are overweight.) That those people are, for the most part, healthy? That there would have been no drawbacks and possible benefits from being able to eat over maintenance in times of surplus throughout most of human history?
I don't think it's so easy to lose one's appetite, either, especially in a situation of high activity and less available food. IMO, food rituals are more about community+nutrition, probably, but operated for years after food was more available also to control eating (and still would if we followed them), as well as for nutrition (don't spoil your appetite before dinner, no dessert without eating your veg first).3 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
^^ simply saying it's a lack of education is also grossly incorrect. IMO. Trust me, I'm educated. Very much so in nutritional, exercise etc. But doesn't make it any easier to control that "excessive eating." Not in the slightest. I think unless you've REALLY had an issue with food? It's perhaps easier to say "that person is simply not educated" when in fact, that might only be a sliver of the issue.
knowing how to lose weight (which I don't think a lot know really how to do it) and applying it are two different things.
and my question is this how many people "REALLY" have an issue with food? or is it other issues like self esteem or mental disorder?
I have lost 118 pounds and kept it off for over 2 years. Even now, I know all about CICO, and I still believe I REALLY have an issue with food.
And what is your issue with food? and did it stop you from losing the weight and maintaining?....no so is it really an issue?
I should rephrase this, my issues are not directly with food, but my own continual struggle with binge eating. I guess it could be said that the issue is my mental state after all. I still sometimes get over whelming urges to eat massive amounts of food. Were talking huge calories in brief periods of time, and not because I am hungry. Sometimes, I am happy, sometimes sad, sometimes, worried, whatever, it just hits me. Fortunately I balance it out when it happens through the rest of the week. I still struggle with why I do this4 -
I don't really see how this thread won't end up here anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and throw it out there:
In some (or many) cases, people are afflicted with a compulsion/addiction/condition/whatever-term-that-won't-cause-mental-anguish-to-people. I believe that there is both a physical and mental component to this.
The physical is that there is an abnormal reaction to the effects of certain behaviors and or experiences (such as overeating and/or eating highly palatable foods). This reaction manifests in a phenomenal craving. Once the craving is triggered, it cannot be satisfied.
The mental aspect is an obsession with the behavior or experience. They are inexplicably drawn to attempt normal consumption even if they have proven an inability to do so in the past. No matter their level of commitment or the seriousness of their situation (i.e. you'll have to get your leg amputated if you can't get this under control), they will trigger the craving again.
Basically it boils down to this, they can't stop once they've started and they can't stop themselves from starting.
I don't believe this for one second.
Lack of education.
^^ simply saying it's a lack of education is also grossly incorrect. IMO. Trust me, I'm educated. Very much so in nutritional, exercise etc. But doesn't make it any easier to control that "excessive eating." Not in the slightest. I think unless you've REALLY had an issue with food? It's perhaps easier to say "that person is simply not educated" when in fact, that might only be a sliver of the issue.
knowing how to lose weight (which I don't think a lot know really how to do it) and applying it are two different things.
and my question is this how many people "REALLY" have an issue with food? or is it other issues like self esteem or mental disorder?
I have lost 118 pounds and kept it off for over 2 years. Even now, I know all about CICO, and I still believe I REALLY have an issue with food.
And what is your issue with food? and did it stop you from losing the weight and maintaining?....no so is it really an issue?
I should rephrase this, my issues are not directly with food, but my own continual struggle with binge eating. I guess it could be said that the issue is my mental state after all. I still sometimes get over whelming urges to eat massive amounts of food. Were talking huge calories in brief periods of time, and not because I am hungry. Sometimes, I am happy, sometimes sad, sometimes, worried, whatever, it just hits me. Fortunately I balance it out when it happens through the rest of the week. I still struggle with why I do this
Thank you for sharing...food for thought.
4 -
I should rephrase this, my issues are not directly with food, but my own continual struggle with binge eating. I guess it could be said that the issue is my mental state after all. I still sometimes get over whelming urges to eat massive amounts of food. Were talking huge calories in brief periods of time, and not because I am hungry. Sometimes, I am happy, sometimes sad, sometimes, worried, whatever, it just hits me. Fortunately I balance it out when it happens through the rest of the week. I still struggle with why I do this
In this instance, how we grew up with food and our relationship with food can have an impact too. When you're sad I'm sure you're not chowing down a whole bunch of celery, your mind goes straight to the thought of junk-type food. It might stem from when you were a kid, if you got hurt you were given junk to make you happy again rather than trying to mentally sort out the issue naturally. And it's not like it's your parents fault either, it's embedded in our culture. Oh a bully pushed you over, I'm so sorry, do you want an ice cream cone? This repeated over and over is what could be causing the embedded switch in your brain - sadness, pain, ice cream.4
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