FDA approves weight loss stomach pump device
Replies
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Further, you do not have the right to judge someone else's effort or motivation or commitment to their health unless you have intimate knowledge of their attitudes and habits.
Ah, and just which individuals have suffered my judgement on their effort, motivation or commitment to their health?
I have offered my opinion on a product which I foresee having great potential to be abused, misused and also of carrying risks of inducing nutrient deficiencies and/or leading to relapse by means of rewarding bad eating behaviors.
That's no reason for you to white knight for the "general public."8 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Oh for crying out loud. We're seriously busting out free speech comments now? Okee dokee.
No one ever said you couldn't voice your opinion on the product, and you beyond question have every right to have an opinion regarding how YOU believe is the best way for YOU to lose weight and to voice that opinion.
Oh, I know I have every right. It just seemed like you forgot.Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
You conveniently forgot to bold "for someone else."
I didn't forget. I didn't bold it because it's irrelevant. I have a right to comment on what I think is right for me, right for you, right for George Washington Carver or right for Elvis' alien bride.
Your right to dismiss my opinion doesn't override my right to offer it.
ETA: My right to comment on a medical procedure is not dependent on my ability to write the prescription.9 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Further, you do not have the right to judge someone else's effort or motivation or commitment to their health unless you have intimate knowledge of their attitudes and habits.
Ah, and just which individuals have suffered my judgement on their effort, motivation or commitment to their health?
I have offered my opinion on a product which I foresee having great potential to be abused, misused and also of carrying risks of inducing nutrient deficiencies and/or leading to relapse by means of rewarding bad eating behaviors.
That's no reason for you to white knight for the "general public."
You've repeatedly stated and implied that people could lose weight without using this product if they just tried a little harder, without any recognition of the unique difficulties obese individuals may face that make that not even a fraction so simple that you seem to think it is.
Do you have the same opinions of gastric bypass or lap band surgery? Or weight loss medications?1 -
I can see this being used as a step before weight loss surgery. It would be better to try something like this in tandem with therapy before going straight to a risky and invasive and much more permanent surgery.
To me, the idea that some people will abuse its purpose doesn't matter. People abuse prescription pain killers all the time but they still have their place for those who qualify for their usage.
It matters to me, since I'm not seeing the trade off as use this or don't lose weight. I'm seeing the trade off as "keep working on losing weight through eating less until it works" vs. give up and use this. We also don't have long-term studies yet. My intuition (which, sure, could be wrong) is that for lots of people after they adjust it ends up allowing them to just eat even more, with the idea that they can fix it after the fact. Especially if (horrifying thought!) it gets normalized.5 -
afatpersonwholikesfood wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »skinnyforhi wrote: »It does exactly what it's supposed to do by teaching the patient nothing. From the website: Many patients choose to keep the AspireAssist in place to ensure that they maintain their weight loss...if the AspireAssist is needed to maintain weight loss, it is likely weight regain will occur if therapy is stopped.
It works perfectly!!!
Given the number of people that fail at every other method of weight loss, would this be a horrible thing?
A lifetime of medically assisted binge/purging? Sure could.
If it got them to a healthy weight and kept them there would it be an inherently horrible thing?
Kinda like an e-cigarette...letting people continue with their addiction and fork over their money forever rather than face the music and quit.
I said I didn't want to derail this thread, but I came back and saw the e-cig comments, so I had to get back on my soap box.
Someone mentioned chemicals and e-cigs still being an unknown.
Your basic liquid contains 2-3 ingredients. Propylene glycol (used in nebulizers, inhalers, toothpaste, shampoo, food, and the current FDA approved nicotine replacement products), vegetable glycerin (also used in food), and the same pharmaceutical grade nicotine found in FDA approved replacement products. Any flavors, which are optional, are FDA approved for food. Not much unknown about ANY of these chemicals. You can't get through every day life without exposure to PG or flavorings for the most part, whether you vape or not.
On top of that, e-cigs are not that new. They started 10 years or so ago in China and have grown exponentially since then. Smoking rates are dropping as well. No proof that it's from e-cigs, but there's a correlation. Millions of people around the world have used an e-cig.
Europe concluded they are 95% safer than regular cigarettes. The US government seems to be trying to protect Big Tobacco and pharma interests. Come 2018, thanks to new FDA regulations, the only devices on the market are going to come from Big Tobacco. Are the new regulations really some attempt to protect public health from an unknown entity that the FDA has been dealing with for years? Hmmm.
And yeah, I use an e-cig. I used to smoke 2.5 packs per day. 5 years without smoking, and I have dropped my nicotine to almost pointlessly low levels. I've had chest x-rays, and my lungs have been listened to multiple times. My doctor has me listed as a non-smoker and says my lungs are excellent. I no longer have a smoker's cough or constant sinus infections. Good enough for me.
Yes, those ingredients are fine to eat. That says nothing about being fine to breathe. Regularly breathing flour (and any number of other edible small particles or vapors) damages the lungs over time. This is a known workplace hazard. There are possible risks to long-term inhalation of the FDA-approved edible flavoring agent diacetyl (bronchiolitis obliterans). It's one of the open challenges to e-cig and vaping safety - is it the causative agent for the disease (there's an association but insufficient information to determine causation) and if so, is it being delivered to the lungs in such a way that bronchiolitis obliterans is a risk? Like many things, the dose and, I'll add, delivery mechanism make the poison. Even if diacetyl is a hazardous inhalant, there may still be minimal risk with e-cigs and vaping. It may very well be that there's not enough of a concentration or it needs to be inhaled 8 hrs a day to be an issue, etc. But, the studies are not yet complete. Not even preliminary results have been reported as far as I know.
Part of the problem with safety testing e-cigs is that each brand and type of flavoring contains different ingredients, and it is taking time to determine which of them is apparently safe in the doses received and with this type of delivery - because this is completely unknown for many of them. The main carrier ingredients have been cleared with regards to short term safety, for the most part (some are still being studied).
Anywho, this isn't intended to be some kind of anti-vaping or anti-e-cig message, but claiming they're known to be safe is not correct regardless of 10 years use thus far. Why not just say there's not been any apparent health risk in 10 years of use and clinical studies are still ongoing?
The point actually makes the earlier post more relevant to the thread, IMO. It's similar to how the longer term effects of the device we're discussing aren't known - notice how speculation about that also tends to the negative, although the device appears to be safe on the surface from a physical standpoint (refering to the long-term safety of similar devices)?
95% safer, not 100% safe. Flavorings are optional, as is purchasing pre-mixed liquids. I mix my own and use only pure menthol crystals for flavor - that's been inhaled for a long time. Diacetyl is a flavoring that e-cig websites/groups have warned people away from long before it made headlines.
If we're talking about adult smokers making a decision to try harm reduction, whose cigarettes contain flavorings and fire retardants in the wrapper as well as other ingredients and even more chemicals when combusted, that 5% seems like a moot point to me.
It's not vapor vs. pure virgin air. It's vapor vs. smoke. That's more my point.2 -
My take on this as a stepping stone to more invasive weight loss surgery is this.
If you do not have the ability to try to moderate your food intake, electing for having this tube inserted and continuing to eat as much as you want, when are your going to learn to eat less calories than you need for weight loss?
To relate this procedure to an organ transplant, necessary medication or chemotherapy is not very credible. If a person can not learn to moderate his/her food intake, there is very little hope for successfully keeping the weight off. My opinion only, but the statistics say that over 80% of the people that successfully lose weight, fail to keep that weight off for over 5 years. This is no matter how they lose the weight.1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Oh for crying out loud. We're seriously busting out free speech comments now? Okee dokee.
No one ever said you couldn't voice your opinion on the product, and you beyond question have every right to have an opinion regarding how YOU believe is the best way for YOU to lose weight and to voice that opinion.
Oh, I know I have every right. It just seemed like you forgot.Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
You conveniently forgot to bold "for someone else."
I didn't forget. I didn't bold it because it's irrelevant. I have a right to comment on what I think is right for me, right for you, right for George Washington Carver or right for Elvis' alien bride.
Your right to dismiss my opinion doesn't override my right to offer it.
Who said you can't offer your opinion? Offer away. My point was that without medical/psychological experience with obese individuals and personal knowledge of someone's individual situation and medical history, you cannot possibly have any clue whether a particular medical treatment is appropriate for another person, so your opinion is kind of meaningless in that regard.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I can see this being used as a step before weight loss surgery. It would be better to try something like this in tandem with therapy before going straight to a risky and invasive and much more permanent surgery.
To me, the idea that some people will abuse its purpose doesn't matter. People abuse prescription pain killers all the time but they still have their place for those who qualify for their usage.
It matters to me, since I'm not seeing the trade off as use this or don't lose weight. I'm seeing the trade off as "keep working on losing weight through eating less until it works" vs. give up and use this. We also don't have long-term studies yet. My intuition (which, sure, could be wrong) is that for lots of people after they adjust it ends up allowing them to just eat even more, with the idea that they can fix it after the fact. Especially if (horrifying thought!) it gets normalized.
Something about your post called to mind iron lungs. Something that seemed like the right thing at the time but ended up making people dependent upon it for the rest of their lives.
I keep going back and forth between "this will lead to a dystopian future" and "maybe it'll be good for some people". (Watch out! There's a bit of hyperbole in that last sentence! I don't want anybody to trip over it.)2 -
snowflake930 wrote: »My take on this as a stepping stone to more invasive weight loss surgery is this.
If you do not have the ability to try to moderate your food intake, electing for having this tube inserted and continuing to eat as much as you want, when are your going to learn to eat less calories than you need for weight loss?
To relate this procedure to an organ transplant, necessary medication or chemotherapy is not very credible. If a person can not learn to moderate his/her food intake, there is very little hope for successfully keeping the weight off. My opinion only, but the statistics say that over 80% of the people that successfully lose weight, fail to keep that weight off for over 5 years. This is no matter how they lose the weight.
I don't know if you had in mind my post in particular, but I was actually thinking that if this works for some people they wouldn't proceed to WLS, whereas without it they might.1 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »SassyMommasaurus wrote: »SassyMommasaurus wrote: »So people who lack the will power to cut down their calories, they are giving them an easy way out that will lead to an eat disorder. 'Merica! Land of the Lazy Way Out!
Again, I'm not trying to defend this device, but this doesn't look like an easy way out. I love to eat, and I eat too much, but I can't imagine even considering this. I think the majority of obese people would balk at this, but I could be wrong.
Yeah no, I know tons of people who would look at this like "Omg I can eat whatever I want and not watch how much I eat" (most of those idiots in my extended family always looking for an easy way out) and actually get this surgery. Never change their eating habits, get it removed and then gain all the weight back. Unlike the other weigh loss surgeries that do things like shrink the stomach so you feel fuller quicker so you learn to eat smaller sizes, this is letting you eat whatever you want and just pumping it out, like bulimia. This is an easy way to bulimia. Binge eating then throwing it back up without the throwing up part. I'm surprised an American didn't think of this.
I can actually see a future where it's a commonly accepted weight loss method. I think a LOT of people would be drawn to a method of losing weight that allows them to eat and drink whatever they want.
And that would be bad?
Kinda creepy bizarro world where the rich are gluttonous and empty their ports after every meal while the poor starve? ...it would make a good novel. I think I might go write it!
Someone already has...it's in the Hunger Games trilogy the Capitol residents use a pill to vomit to eat more while the districts starve 6 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Oh for crying out loud. We're seriously busting out free speech comments now? Okee dokee.
No one ever said you couldn't voice your opinion on the product, and you beyond question have every right to have an opinion regarding how YOU believe is the best way for YOU to lose weight and to voice that opinion.
Oh, I know I have every right. It just seemed like you forgot.Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
You conveniently forgot to bold "for someone else."
I didn't forget. I didn't bold it because it's irrelevant. I have a right to comment on what I think is right for me, right for you, right for George Washington Carver or right for Elvis' alien bride.
Your right to dismiss my opinion doesn't override my right to offer it.
Who said you can't offer your opinion? Offer away. My point was that without medical/psychological experience with obese individuals and personal knowledge of someone's individual situation and medical history, you cannot possibly have any clue whether a particular medical treatment is appropriate for another person, so your opinion is kind of meaningless in that regard.
All of our opinions on this and every forum are meaningless.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Further, you do not have the right to judge someone else's effort or motivation or commitment to their health unless you have intimate knowledge of their attitudes and habits.
Ah, and just which individuals have suffered my judgement on their effort, motivation or commitment to their health?
I have offered my opinion on a product which I foresee having great potential to be abused, misused and also of carrying risks of inducing nutrient deficiencies and/or leading to relapse by means of rewarding bad eating behaviors.
That's no reason for you to white knight for the "general public."
You've repeatedly stated and implied that people could lose weight without using this product if they just tried a little harder, without any recognition of the unique difficulties obese individuals may face that make that not even a fraction so simple that you seem to think it is.
Do you have the same opinions of gastric bypass or lap band surgery? Or weight loss medications?
No. I. Have. Not.
That is a complete mischaracterization of what I have actually said.
Nowhere on this thread, on this site, elsewhere on the Internet or even in my personal life have I ever said, implied or insinuated that obese individuals could have success if only they just "tried a little harder."
I don't know why you're so intent on having something to be offended at me about but you're having to put a lot of words in my mouth to do it.
What I have said repeatedly in this thread is that IF an individual uses the pump but has still not changed their lifestyle by implementing a healthy diet, they will gain back the weight after the pump is removed and their old eating habits continue. Conversely, IF an individual is successful at implementing a healthy diet, this would be preferred over (and negate the need for) the pump in the first place.
That. Is. All.
I never said that obese individuals don't try hard enough before resorting to the pump. I said that if their old habits persist after its use (and it's likely they will since therapy has already failed at least once before its use) that the weight will return.
For you to twist that into me belittling the plight of the obese is absurd.26 -
snowflake930 wrote: »My take on this as a stepping stone to more invasive weight loss surgery is this.
If you do not have the ability to try to moderate your food intake, electing for having this tube inserted and continuing to eat as much as you want, when are your going to learn to eat less calories than you need for weight loss?
To relate this procedure to an organ transplant, necessary medication or chemotherapy is not very credible. If a person can not learn to moderate his/her food intake, there is very little hope for successfully keeping the weight off. My opinion only, but the statistics say that over 80% of the people that successfully lose weight, fail to keep that weight off for over 5 years. This is no matter how they lose the weight.
I don't know if you had in mind my post in particular, but I was actually thinking that if this works for some people they wouldn't proceed to WLS, whereas without it they might.
Partly to your comment, but mostly the comment comparing this to real life saving procedures.
Bottom line is nothing is 100% safe, and who knows what may result from emptying the contents of your stomach repeatedly are. Besides the abhorrent idea of eating what you want and then pumping out your stomach. It is just too disgusting to me to want to ever even consider doing something like this to lose weight. I am sure some would be agreeable to it, but for me, never happening.
2 -
Now this has gone into the ridiculously abstract on both sides of the argument.
I can't believe this is something that would become main stream, but there are potentially some instances where it could be helpful. I still would really worry about the nutrition aspect of this and potential health side effects of a drain on your stomach. It would have to be an intervention of last resort.2 -
Other than Prader-Willi syndrome, I can't imagine this being medically indicated, strictly speaking, for any obese individual. They really should just get themselves into a caloric deficit and reap the benefits.
I tend to agree with the critics here - this is just surgically-assisted bulimia.
However, to be fair, I'm pretty libertarian about this sort of thing. If a person of sound mind wants to mutilate their bodies have something as horrific and unnecessary like this implanted, have at it.3 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Further, you do not have the right to judge someone else's effort or motivation or commitment to their health unless you have intimate knowledge of their attitudes and habits.
Ah, and just which individuals have suffered my judgement on their effort, motivation or commitment to their health?
I have offered my opinion on a product which I foresee having great potential to be abused, misused and also of carrying risks of inducing nutrient deficiencies and/or leading to relapse by means of rewarding bad eating behaviors.
That's no reason for you to white knight for the "general public."
You've repeatedly stated and implied that people could lose weight without using this product if they just tried a little harder, without any recognition of the unique difficulties obese individuals may face that make that not even a fraction so simple that you seem to think it is.
Do you have the same opinions of gastric bypass or lap band surgery? Or weight loss medications?
No. I. Have. Not.
That is a complete mischaracterization of what I have actually said.
Nowhere on this thread, on this site, elsewhere on the Internet or even in my personal life have I ever said, implied or insinuated that obese individuals could have success if only they just "tried a little harder."
I don't know why you're so intent on having something to be offended at me about but you're having to put a lot of words in my mouth to do it.
What I have said repeatedly in this thread is that IF an individual uses the pump but has still not changed their lifestyle by implementing a healthy diet, they will gain back the weight after the pump is removed and their old eating habits continue. Conversely, IF an individual is successful at implementing a healthy diet, this would be preferred over (and negate the need for) the pump in the first place.
That. Is. All.
I never said that obese individuals don't try hard enough before resorting to the pump. I said that if their old habits persist after its use (and it's likely they will since therapy has already failed at least once before its use) that the weight will return.
For you to twist that into me belittling the plight of the obese is absurd.
Yikes, dude. Sorry I upset you so much. I thought we were just having a bit of passionate discourse on the internet. I was sort of enjoying the point-counterpoint.
What I saw from you is a comparison of the state of obesity/use of a procedure like this to "running into things on purpose because you're wearing a seatbelt." That it's possible to overcome obesity simply by eating responsibly. That those using the stomach pump COULD achieve the same results or better by simply eating less but they haven't because they haven't implemented a proper diet or stuck with it. That if by the time an obese person reaches the end of this treatment they are able to keep the weight off that they didn't really need the pump to begin with. That if an obese person is able to control their intake then they don't need this medical intervention.
Those are all direct (ETA: Sorry, I realized that I slightly paraphrased in some places. So not direct but I believe still accurate) quotes from your posts. I realize that they are all true statements on their own, but within the context of the discussion I read it as "any obese person can avoid medical interventions such as this regarding their weight if they could just manage to stick to a responsible eating plan." Which, again, is a true statement when you look at it in black and white - yes, the results of an appropriate and responsible eating plan will nearly always be weight loss/maintenance - but also ignores the unique difficulties of those who are not physically or mentally capable of accomplishing this. That mindset sets me off like no other. I (sincerely, really) apologize if I mistook your meaning.1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Oh for crying out loud. We're seriously busting out free speech comments now? Okee dokee.
No one ever said you couldn't voice your opinion on the product, and you beyond question have every right to have an opinion regarding how YOU believe is the best way for YOU to lose weight and to voice that opinion.
Oh, I know I have every right. It just seemed like you forgot.Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
You conveniently forgot to bold "for someone else."
I didn't forget. I didn't bold it because it's irrelevant. I have a right to comment on what I think is right for me, right for you, right for George Washington Carver or right for Elvis' alien bride.
Your right to dismiss my opinion doesn't override my right to offer it.
Who said you can't offer your opinion? Offer away. My point was that without medical/psychological experience with obese individuals and personal knowledge of someone's individual situation and medical history, you cannot possibly have any clue whether a particular medical treatment is appropriate for another person, so your opinion is kind of meaningless in that regard.
All of our opinions on this and every forum are meaningless.
Fair point.
2 -
How is this thing not just sanctioned bulimia?? Srsly if you wouldn't stick your fingers down your throat you shouldn't think this is a good idea either.7
-
Nony_Mouse wrote: »How is this thing not just sanctioned bulimia?? Srsly if you wouldn't stick your fingers down your throat you shouldn't think this is a good idea either.
Completely agree. This is actually quite distributing.4 -
So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.2 -
MorganMoreaux wrote: »So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.
Instead of a doggie bag they hand you a vomit bag so you can dump while the waiter is getting your check.2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »How is this thing not just sanctioned bulimia?? Srsly if you wouldn't stick your fingers down your throat you shouldn't think this is a good idea either.
I agree with this3 -
This content has been removed.
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Alluminati wrote: »MorganMoreaux wrote: »So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.
Instead of a doggie bag they hand you a vomit bag so you can dump while the waiter is getting your check.
Ok, can we stop now? I've read more disgusting things today on MFP than what I average in a month of internet usage!
0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Doesn't do you any good if you're in a coffin when they hand the test out.
I highly doubt that this will be primarily used as a life saving procedure to bring back the morbidly obese from their death beds. In fact, I would argue that if a person doesn't have enough time left to implement a healthy diet, they likely don't have time for the pump to work either.Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »No it's not. All the people on here saying there is no reason for people to be obese. They just need to put down the fork. If it were that easy, there would be no obese people in the world. So until you have lived it, you have no idea what you are talking about...therefor....SHUT UP about it.
Who said there's no reason for people to be obese?
All I said was that giving people the tools they need to reduce their intake of food would be far superior and more healthy/safe than continuing to allow uncontrolled intake while removing food from the stomach.
The stomach pump approach, if continued long term, runs a high risk of causing deficiencies since fast digesting carbs will be the majority of what remains in the body while things like protein and fat (which is necessarily for vitamin absorption and a host of other things) will be flushed out.
And once the pump is no longer in use, what keeps the patient from regaining the weight? And if they've learned to eat less in the process so that they can keep the weight off, doesn't that show that they didn't really need the pump to begin with?
That last sentence is beyond silly. The same could be said of any weight loss tool.
How is it silly? If they're able to control their intake, they don't need the pump. If not, the effects won't last.
And yes, it can be said about lipo, Jenny Craig, weight loss shakes and a host of other things. That doesn't invalidate the statement.
Also including calorie counting and MFP types of sites. I'm not saying I am for this device, but ALL weight loss methods are subject to this.
MFP is a counting tool. I've had success not due to MFP but due to my learning how to eat properly.
Whether I write down what I've eaten, track it on MFP or have a good enough memory to track my intake mentally makes no difference.
Tracking food intake to ensure proper nutrition =/= a gimmick product/procedure. I track my intake because I know what/how much I need to eat to reach my goals, not because I depend on MFP or other sites to lose weight. I use MFP to supplement my memory.
Stomach pumps, Jenny Craig, lipo...they don't teach me how much protein I need or how to ensure I get it. Therefore, once the program is over or the product runs out, the results don't last.
Because I do know how much protein I need, how much fat, how much fiber and how many calories, I can continue to enjoy success no matter what method I use to measure my intake.
Big difference. Really big. Yuuuuuge.
If MFP taught you how much protein you need, does that mean you eat the amount of protein suggested by the site without adjustment?
Did you read what I said? I said that MFP is only a counting tool for me. I never said that it taught me anything.
And no, as I'm a heavy lifter currently eating in a deficit, I eat a LOT more protein than MFP suggests. I also don't follow MFP's calorie recommendations as I've learned for myself what my actual intake should be.
So MFP what makes MFP any better than the pump you also think teaches nothing? I'm just assuming you think it is better since you are here often.
Again...pay attention this time...
MFP is not the mechanism by which I have lost weight. Educating myself about my nutritional needs and eating accordingly to those needs (which include a caloric deficit) is the mechanism by which I have lost weight.
That education has come from a myriad of sources.
I track my food on MFP for no other reason than that it's simpler than carrying around a notepad with my food log on it. If my memory was reliable enough I would track my food mentally but it's not.
MFP is no different than the food scale I use to weigh my food. One measures the food, the other tracks it. But I control the intake.
The pump, on the other hand, is a device which synthetically alters the amount of Calories In by removing contents from the stomach, thus (likely) enforcing a deficit even when actual intake would have resulted in a surplus. This is more likely to reinforce bad eating habits as weight loss will occur even though actions of the patient would otherwise result in weight maintenance/gain.
Asking "Why is MFP better than the pump?" is like asking "why is using a calculator better than copying the answers out of the answer key?"
It's not better if your goal is to learn how to get to the answer. It's unfathomably better if your actual life depends on getting the answer right, regardless of how you get there, and despite several efforts you just can't figure out the calculator. Do you keep banging on the calculator until you die, or do you flip to the back of the book and worry about the rest later?
Until it's time for the test (taking out the pump) and you still don't know how to work the equation.
Just because this device is something that you believe is not the right path to take does not give you the right or the credibility to state that it might not be right for someone else.
If I don't have the right to offer my opinion that it might not be right to use a stomach pump as a weight loss tool then what are we here for? Delete the thread, mods, this isn't America anymore. My right to speak my mind is gone.
Further, you do not have the right to judge someone else's effort or motivation or commitment to their health unless you have intimate knowledge of their attitudes and habits.
Ah, and just which individuals have suffered my judgement on their effort, motivation or commitment to their health?
I have offered my opinion on a product which I foresee having great potential to be abused, misused and also of carrying risks of inducing nutrient deficiencies and/or leading to relapse by means of rewarding bad eating behaviors.
That's no reason for you to white knight for the "general public."
You've repeatedly stated and implied that people could lose weight without using this product if they just tried a little harder, without any recognition of the unique difficulties obese individuals may face that make that not even a fraction so simple that you seem to think it is.
Do you have the same opinions of gastric bypass or lap band surgery? Or weight loss medications?
No. I. Have. Not.
That is a complete mischaracterization of what I have actually said.
Nowhere on this thread, on this site, elsewhere on the Internet or even in my personal life have I ever said, implied or insinuated that obese individuals could have success if only they just "tried a little harder."
I don't know why you're so intent on having something to be offended at me about but you're having to put a lot of words in my mouth to do it.
What I have said repeatedly in this thread is that IF an individual uses the pump but has still not changed their lifestyle by implementing a healthy diet, they will gain back the weight after the pump is removed and their old eating habits continue. Conversely, IF an individual is successful at implementing a healthy diet, this would be preferred over (and negate the need for) the pump in the first place.
That. Is. All.
I never said that obese individuals don't try hard enough before resorting to the pump. I said that if their old habits persist after its use (and it's likely they will since therapy has already failed at least once before its use) that the weight will return.
For you to twist that into me belittling the plight of the obese is absurd.
1) Yikes, dude. Sorry I upset you so much. 2) I thought we were just having a bit of passionate discourse on the internet. I was sort of enjoying the point-counterpoint.
3) What I saw from you is a comparison of the state of obesity/use of a procedure like this to "running into things on purpose because you're wearing a seatbelt." 4) That it's possible to overcome obesity simply by eating responsibly. That those using the stomach pump COULD achieve the same results or better by simply eating less but they haven't because they haven't implemented a proper diet or stuck with it. 5) That if by the time an obese person reaches the end of this treatment they are able to keep the weight off that they didn't really need the pump to begin with. 6) That if an obese person is able to control their intake then they don't need this medical intervention.
Those are all direct (ETA: Sorry, I realized that 7) I slightly paraphrased in some places. So not direct but I believe still accurate) quotes from your posts. 8) I realize that they are all true statements on their own, but within the context of the discussion I read it as "any obese person can avoid medical interventions such as this regarding their weight if they could just manage to stick to a responsible eating plan." 9) Which, again, is a true statement when you look at it in black and white - yes, the results of an appropriate and responsible eating plan will nearly always be weight loss/maintenance - 10) but also ignores the unique difficulties of those who are not physically or mentally capable of accomplishing this. That mindset sets me off like no other. 11) I (sincerely, really) apologize if I mistook your meaning.
1) I was hangry.
2) It's just that putting words in my mouth by claiming that I've said obese people could succeed if they just try a little harder doesn't fit in with honest debate. And the thread has already gone in circles long enough that I'm dizzy anyway.
3) That was in direct response to someone who equated rejecting the pump in favor of traditional weight loss methods to rejecting seat belts in favor of not wrecking your car. I even quoted them and did so to illustrate the fallacy of their argument.
4) Well controlling the intake of food is literally the only way to beat obesity. That control might be gained in several different ways (counseling, therapy, surgery, exercise, a diet plan, a stomach pump...) but weight loss occurs if and only when calories in < calories out.
I was also careful to be clear in stating that a healthy diet would give equal or better results than the pump IF they were both willing AND capable of doing so. I never implied that doing so would be easy (it's not even easy for the non-obese).
5) I said that the methods used to keep the weight off post removal of the pump could also be used in place of the device. This is plainly true and use of the device will have made those methods no easier to implement.
6) Keyword being "if"
7) Yup
8) Again, my use of the word "if" is quite consistent.
9) Yes. Always.
10) It absolutely does not. See, that "if" word is still there. And the word "easy" is still not there. And the point to be made here is that because oftentimes it's not so simple for obese individuals to just start eating properly, the results of the pump are not likely to last. And IF the issues can be overcome and a healthy diet implemented, would that alone not be better than using the pump?
11) As do I (sincerely, really).2 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »How is this thing not just sanctioned bulimia?? Srsly if you wouldn't stick your fingers down your throat you shouldn't think this is a good idea either.
Sanctioned bulimia with a higher risk for surgical complications.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »How is this thing not just sanctioned bulimia?? Srsly if you wouldn't stick your fingers down your throat you shouldn't think this is a good idea either.
Sanctioned bulimia with a higher risk for surgical complications.
Yep this pretty much sums it up1 -
Alluminati wrote: »MorganMoreaux wrote: »So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.
Instead of a doggie bag they hand you a vomit bag so you can dump while the waiter is getting your check.
This made me laugh harder than it should have.
I haven't read all the posts, but have we discussed the complications that come with having this type of device? There are many, which are not limited to:
1) Leaking of gastric contents into the abdomen causing peritonitis, sepsis, and death.
2) Infection leading to the above. Particularly if there are superbugs or fecal matter involved. The latter is less likely with the tube being in the stomach, but I've seen worse happen.
1 -
Alluminati wrote: »MorganMoreaux wrote: »So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.
Instead of a doggie bag they hand you a vomit bag so you can dump while the waiter is getting your check.
Ok, can we stop now? I've read more disgusting things today on MFP than what I average in a month of internet usage!
Instead of male/female, in 10 years it will be purging/non purging! 10 years is probably optimistic, likely by 2020.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »MorganMoreaux wrote: »So this has to be done 30 minutes after eating, does this mean Resturaunt bathrooms with be consumed by people pumping their stomachs? The concept makes me a little queasy, walking in and hearing/smelling it would probably make me vomit.
I took care of a friend who was dying of cancer. They had a j-tube to get nutrients as they had esophageal cancer that had spread to their stomachs. It was not a pleseant experience for them having to live with the tube, and I really don't foresee many people being able to maintain stomach pumping as it is going to be more involved than they anticipate, and it's very inconvenient to live with a tube in your gut, regardless of the port. While it sounds quick and easy, having to functionally live with this is a totally different issue, one that I don't think many people will be able to tolerate.
I have my opinions on this procedure, and all the points I could make have been said in this thread so I'm not going to parrot other posts. For whoever gets this done I wish them the best of luck and hope it works out for them.
Instead of a doggie bag they hand you a vomit bag so you can dump while the waiter is getting your check.
Ok, can we stop now? I've read more disgusting things today on MFP than what I average in a month of internet usage!
Instead of male/female, in 10 years it will be purging/non purging! 10 years is probably optimistic, likely by 2020.
And the new saying will be "Families that purge together, stay together."0
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