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Forbidden vs not wanting
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tlflag1620 wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »A) you said in your opinion it works that way for everyone (the use of the word "one" instead of "me")
B ) a boatload of posts I've read about binges were started by people attempting to eat moderately and not being able to stop.
I get why you don't eat/drink certain things...
but based on what I have read more people restrict/forbid and are unhappy about it then happy...you could be drawn to posts about binges where I am not.
@ndj1979 and I have both been here a long time and read a lot of posts. Based on our experience more people come in here saying "I can't eat this it's bad..." or " you shouldn't eat that it's bad..." or "i can't eat this otherwise I will not lose weight..." based on a belief that it is the type of food that makes you gain not the calories...I personally did that exact thing prior to coming here and listening to those who moderate intake and educated myself on nutrition and calories etc.
For a lot of people moderation is the best choice, for some others (not as many as those who moderate) excluding certain foods is best and keeps them sane...but for those who are excluding foods and miserable they do need to take a step back and rethink their methods...try moderation.....and not be miserable.
Thank you, but I tried moderation and it made me miserable. I'll pass.
you missed the point.
I wasn't suggesting it for you...
what I am saying is most who forbid do it for the wrong reason....and are miserable.
However there are those like you and others who do it to keep sane and are happier...good choice for you guys...
No.
and you know everyone who forbids do you?
most people here who do it based on what I have read are not happy and eventually end up as moderators.
But how many people who are happily restricting ask for advice on the main forums? Just like how many people who are happily moderating ask for advice? Of course you see a lot of people struggling (in both camps) - the ones who found what works for them are quietly doing it, without whining or asking for help. Maybe the ones who aren't happy moderating and end up restricting don't bother coming back because the vibe around here is pretty clear - the majority (at least on the main forums) trot out the old 'don't restrict anything, eat whatever you want, nothing is off limits' line. Don't get me wrong, that may well be good advice for some, but for some others it doesn't work so well. I think all us restricters are keenly aware that we are outnumbered on MFP
Yes, yes you are....
i wonder why that is....0 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »A) you said in your opinion it works that way for everyone (the use of the word "one" instead of "me")
B ) a boatload of posts I've read about binges were started by people attempting to eat moderately and not being able to stop.
I get why you don't eat/drink certain things...
but based on what I have read more people restrict/forbid and are unhappy about it then happy...you could be drawn to posts about binges where I am not.
@ndj1979 and I have both been here a long time and read a lot of posts. Based on our experience more people come in here saying "I can't eat this it's bad..." or " you shouldn't eat that it's bad..." or "i can't eat this otherwise I will not lose weight..." based on a belief that it is the type of food that makes you gain not the calories...I personally did that exact thing prior to coming here and listening to those who moderate intake and educated myself on nutrition and calories etc.
For a lot of people moderation is the best choice, for some others (not as many as those who moderate) excluding certain foods is best and keeps them sane...but for those who are excluding foods and miserable they do need to take a step back and rethink their methods...try moderation.....and not be miserable.
Thank you, but I tried moderation and it made me miserable. I'll pass.
you missed the point.
I wasn't suggesting it for you...
what I am saying is most who forbid do it for the wrong reason....and are miserable.
However there are those like you and others who do it to keep sane and are happier...good choice for you guys...
No.
and you know everyone who forbids do you?
most people here who do it based on what I have read are not happy and eventually end up as moderators.
But how many people who are happily restricting ask for advice on the main forums? Just like how many people who are happily moderating ask for advice? Of course you see a lot of people struggling (in both camps) - the ones who found what works for them are quietly doing it, without whining or asking for help. Maybe the ones who aren't happy moderating and end up restricting don't bother coming back because the vibe around here is pretty clear - the majority (at least on the main forums) trot out the old 'don't restrict anything, eat whatever you want, nothing is off limits' line. Don't get me wrong, that may well be good advice for some, but for some others it doesn't work so well. I think all us restricters are keenly aware that we are outnumbered on MFP
Yes, yes you are....
i wonder why that is....
We found the last time we did this was largely an issue of definition. A lot of people consider admitting the possibility of eating a food once in your lifetime "moderation" many of the people who prefer to abstain believe that abstinence isn't necessarily permanent, that one can abstain for a limited amount of time.6 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »A) you said in your opinion it works that way for everyone (the use of the word "one" instead of "me")
B ) a boatload of posts I've read about binges were started by people attempting to eat moderately and not being able to stop.
I get why you don't eat/drink certain things...
but based on what I have read more people restrict/forbid and are unhappy about it then happy...you could be drawn to posts about binges where I am not.
@ndj1979 and I have both been here a long time and read a lot of posts. Based on our experience more people come in here saying "I can't eat this it's bad..." or " you shouldn't eat that it's bad..." or "i can't eat this otherwise I will not lose weight..." based on a belief that it is the type of food that makes you gain not the calories...I personally did that exact thing prior to coming here and listening to those who moderate intake and educated myself on nutrition and calories etc.
For a lot of people moderation is the best choice, for some others (not as many as those who moderate) excluding certain foods is best and keeps them sane...but for those who are excluding foods and miserable they do need to take a step back and rethink their methods...try moderation.....and not be miserable.
Thank you, but I tried moderation and it made me miserable. I'll pass.
you missed the point.
I wasn't suggesting it for you...
what I am saying is most who forbid do it for the wrong reason....and are miserable.
However there are those like you and others who do it to keep sane and are happier...good choice for you guys...
No.
and you know everyone who forbids do you?
most people here who do it based on what I have read are not happy and eventually end up as moderators.
But how many people who are happily restricting ask for advice on the main forums? Just like how many people who are happily moderating ask for advice? Of course you see a lot of people struggling (in both camps) - the ones who found what works for them are quietly doing it, without whining or asking for help. Maybe the ones who aren't happy moderating and end up restricting don't bother coming back because the vibe around here is pretty clear - the majority (at least on the main forums) trot out the old 'don't restrict anything, eat whatever you want, nothing is off limits' line. Don't get me wrong, that may well be good advice for some, but for some others it doesn't work so well. I think all us restricters are keenly aware that we are outnumbered on MFP
Yes, yes you are....
i wonder why that is....
We found the last time we did this was largely an issue of definition. A lot of people consider admitting the possibility of eating a food once in your lifetime "moderation" many of the people who prefer to abstain believe that abstinence isn't necessarily permanent, that one can abstain for a limited amount of time.
Yes we did...scales of moderation are a viable solution.
For those who can't learn permanent moderation or find moderation is not good for their mental health, abstaining is a good plan.
Again tho....if you are miserable abstaining (and lots if not most are) it's time to look at a different path.1 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »A) you said in your opinion it works that way for everyone (the use of the word "one" instead of "me")
B ) a boatload of posts I've read about binges were started by people attempting to eat moderately and not being able to stop.
I get why you don't eat/drink certain things...
but based on what I have read more people restrict/forbid and are unhappy about it then happy...you could be drawn to posts about binges where I am not.
@ndj1979 and I have both been here a long time and read a lot of posts. Based on our experience more people come in here saying "I can't eat this it's bad..." or " you shouldn't eat that it's bad..." or "i can't eat this otherwise I will not lose weight..." based on a belief that it is the type of food that makes you gain not the calories...I personally did that exact thing prior to coming here and listening to those who moderate intake and educated myself on nutrition and calories etc.
For a lot of people moderation is the best choice, for some others (not as many as those who moderate) excluding certain foods is best and keeps them sane...but for those who are excluding foods and miserable they do need to take a step back and rethink their methods...try moderation.....and not be miserable.
Thank you, but I tried moderation and it made me miserable. I'll pass.
you missed the point.
I wasn't suggesting it for you...
what I am saying is most who forbid do it for the wrong reason....and are miserable.
However there are those like you and others who do it to keep sane and are happier...good choice for you guys...
No.
and you know everyone who forbids do you?
most people here who do it based on what I have read are not happy and eventually end up as moderators.
I don't know that becoming a moderator makes them any less miserable though. Some people are just miserable regardless.
OP, yes I believe that semantics and mindset can make a big difference. I think that when you focus on what you are gaining, rather than what you are losing can make a big difference in how open you are to the changes you want to make. Moving toward something rather than away from something can make all the difference.
ETA: Oh my, that's a lot of differences in that paragraph. :laugh:3 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »
I think the moderators are a very loud vocal majority. Key words being loud and vocal
Yes yes we are....majority usually is what you hear the most from and they appear the loudest...
However I have to say you don't seem happy based on what I've seen from you here...and not just in this particular thread.
Just a casual observation based on missing points being made, taking things personally and being quite negative.
I have yet to see you admit moderation works for most people the way moderators have admitted that abstaining is good for some...
oh well life goes on and I will continue to give those who abstain and are miserable doing it the same advice...try moderation...it's great.4 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »A) you said in your opinion it works that way for everyone (the use of the word "one" instead of "me")
B ) a boatload of posts I've read about binges were started by people attempting to eat moderately and not being able to stop.
I get why you don't eat/drink certain things...
but based on what I have read more people restrict/forbid and are unhappy about it then happy...you could be drawn to posts about binges where I am not.
@ndj1979 and I have both been here a long time and read a lot of posts. Based on our experience more people come in here saying "I can't eat this it's bad..." or " you shouldn't eat that it's bad..." or "i can't eat this otherwise I will not lose weight..." based on a belief that it is the type of food that makes you gain not the calories...I personally did that exact thing prior to coming here and listening to those who moderate intake and educated myself on nutrition and calories etc.
For a lot of people moderation is the best choice, for some others (not as many as those who moderate) excluding certain foods is best and keeps them sane...but for those who are excluding foods and miserable they do need to take a step back and rethink their methods...try moderation.....and not be miserable.
Thank you, but I tried moderation and it made me miserable. I'll pass.
you missed the point.
I wasn't suggesting it for you...
what I am saying is most who forbid do it for the wrong reason....and are miserable.
However there are those like you and others who do it to keep sane and are happier...good choice for you guys...
No.
and you know everyone who forbids do you?
most people here who do it based on what I have read are not happy and eventually end up as moderators.
I don't know that becoming a moderator makes them any less miserable though. Some people are just miserable regardless.
OP, yes I believe that semantics and mindset can make a big difference. I think that when you focus on what you are gaining, rather than what you are losing can make a big difference in how open you are to the changes you want to make. Moving toward something rather than away from something can make all the difference.
ETA: Oh my, that's a lot of differences in that paragraph. :laugh:
Yes! I remember when I quit smoking, once I wrapped my head around the fact that it wasn't that I COULD never have another cigarette, it was that I never HAD to have another cigarette...that was magic! And it is a similar idea here.0 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »
I think the moderators are a very loud vocal majority. Key words being loud and vocal
Yes yes we are....majority usually is what you hear the most from and they appear the loudest...
However I have to say you don't seem happy based on what I've seen from you here...and not just in this particular thread.
Just a casual observation based on missing points being made, taking things personally and being quite negative.
I have yet to see you admit moderation works for most people the way moderators have admitted that abstaining is good for some...
oh well life goes on and I will continue to give those who abstain and are miserable doing it the same advice...try moderation...it's great.
It's interesting, I thought the same of you. I think we just have different communication styles. I do enjoy sparring from time to time though
I suspect you don't notice my kinder gentler posts as they don't appeal to your desire to argue with me
...and moderation made me miserable, I am actually a very happy person, thank you.5 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »
I think the moderators are a very loud vocal majority. Key words being loud and vocal
Yes yes we are....majority usually is what you hear the most from and they appear the loudest...
However I have to say you don't seem happy based on what I've seen from you here...and not just in this particular thread.
Just a casual observation based on missing points being made, taking things personally and being quite negative.
I have yet to see you admit moderation works for most people the way moderators have admitted that abstaining is good for some...
oh well life goes on and I will continue to give those who abstain and are miserable doing it the same advice...try moderation...it's great.
It's interesting, I thought the same of you. I think we just have different communication styles. I do enjoy sparring from time to time though
I suspect you don't notice my kinder gentler posts as they don't appeal to your desire to argue with me
...and moderation made me miserable, I am actually a very happy person, thank you.
haha I believe you when you say moderation made you miserable...I get it.
and I don't like to "argue" as I see no need in this case.
but to be honest your post about us being "loud and vocal" wasn't nice or gentle....just calling you out on that in particular...I was going to leave it "yes yes we are" but wanted to get my point in that you have yet to agree moderation is a good choice for a lot of people...not all but a lot...not you...obviously...0 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »
I think the moderators are a very loud vocal majority. Key words being loud and vocal
Yes yes we are....majority usually is what you hear the most from and they appear the loudest...
However I have to say you don't seem happy based on what I've seen from you here...and not just in this particular thread.
Just a casual observation based on missing points being made, taking things personally and being quite negative.
I have yet to see you admit moderation works for most people the way moderators have admitted that abstaining is good for some...
oh well life goes on and I will continue to give those who abstain and are miserable doing it the same advice...try moderation...it's great.
It's interesting, I thought the same of you. I think we just have different communication styles. I do enjoy sparring from time to time though
I suspect you don't notice my kinder gentler posts as they don't appeal to your desire to argue with me
...and moderation made me miserable, I am actually a very happy person, thank you.
haha I believe you when you say moderation made you miserable...I get it.
and I don't like to "argue" as I see no need in this case.
but to be honest your post about us being "loud and vocal" wasn't nice or gentle....just calling you out on that in particular...I was going to leave it "yes yes we are" but wanted to get my point in that you have yet to agree moderation is a good choice for a lot of people...not all but a lot...not you...obviously...
I apologize for hurting your feelings...the winky face was my attempt at letting you know that comment in particular was tongue in cheek.0 -
eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »eveandqsmom wrote: »Alluminati wrote: »
I think the moderators are a very loud vocal majority. Key words being loud and vocal
Yes yes we are....majority usually is what you hear the most from and they appear the loudest...
However I have to say you don't seem happy based on what I've seen from you here...and not just in this particular thread.
Just a casual observation based on missing points being made, taking things personally and being quite negative.
I have yet to see you admit moderation works for most people the way moderators have admitted that abstaining is good for some...
oh well life goes on and I will continue to give those who abstain and are miserable doing it the same advice...try moderation...it's great.
It's interesting, I thought the same of you. I think we just have different communication styles. I do enjoy sparring from time to time though
I suspect you don't notice my kinder gentler posts as they don't appeal to your desire to argue with me
...and moderation made me miserable, I am actually a very happy person, thank you.
haha I believe you when you say moderation made you miserable...I get it.
and I don't like to "argue" as I see no need in this case.
but to be honest your post about us being "loud and vocal" wasn't nice or gentle....just calling you out on that in particular...I was going to leave it "yes yes we are" but wanted to get my point in that you have yet to agree moderation is a good choice for a lot of people...not all but a lot...not you...obviously...
I apologize for hurting your feelings...the winky face was my attempt at letting you know that comment in particular was tongue in cheek.
If i had feelings that wouldn't have hurt them...
*finds it funny still no admission moderation can be good for a lot of people....but I am off to celebrate at the cottage have fun with the debate while I moderate my mexican snacks, chips, pulled pork but not my drinking.1 -
Oh sorry, I thought I opened half my posts with it's not for everyone...I could be mistaken.
Moderation works very well for many people.0 -
Also, I eat almost everything in moderation. There are only a very few things I had to get rid of all together.1
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Does this simple change in semantics & mindset make a difference? You see so many people spouting that nothing is forbidden & no foods should be excluded. What if you simply choose not to eat something any longer because you just don't want to? Does the reason matter?
I think it matters a lot. It seems like a lot of people who "forbid" foods feel like they have no choice and it's the only way to lose weight and be healthy. It's understandable that this would lead to resentment, deprivation, and eventually "falling off the wagon" permanently.
I have a very restrictive diet, but I weighed the pro's and con's and decided that I valued the benefits of the changes more than I valued the experience of eating the foods I gave up. I know I could change my mind and go back to all those foods tomorrow, but I'd give up the benefits of the way I'm eating now and that's not worth it to me. I like the way things are now, and I'm happier than I was before.
I find when we think we can't have something, it becomes much more important and valuable in our minds, and we can convince ourselves our lives would be so much better if we could just have that one thing. On the other hand, knowing that we can have it, but it comes at a price, makes us realize maybe it's not quite as crucial as we thought it was.5 -
Does this simple change in semantics & mindset make a difference? You see so many people spouting that nothing is forbidden & no foods should be excluded. What if you simply choose not to eat something any longer because you just don't want to? Does the reason matter?
I think the difference is internal (to a person), and so are the consequences of that difference.
If I say "I no longer want X", or "I forbid myself X", or "I've never liked X", or various other formulations of similar ideas, I'm pretty much the only one who knows whether that's even 'the truth'. The differences between these are inside me, inaccessible to others (except insofar as my behavior supports (or gives lie to) my statements).
I know there are things I formerly liked, and no longer like. For example, as a child, I liked Oreos. But - and I know this is unthinkable to many here - I don't particularly like them now (they're meh), and I haven't much liked them for decades. Unless you catch me repeated sneaking Oreos at 2AM in an orgy of slavering guilty pleasure, you have no way to know whether that's true. But one's tastes do change.
If I stop eating something, without comment, you have no way of knowing whether I've forbidden it to myself, just find it not worthwhile for some reason, developed an allergy, don't feel like having any now, etc., etc. (While I was losing weight, one of my friends told me I no longer ate bread. She hadn't seen me eat any lately, but she was incorrect.)
And the consequences of any of these mental states are different for different people, via our individual psychology. You've seen folks upthread saying they forbid themselves a particular food then crave it, while others forbid themselves a food and it eventually slips out of their mental universe.
So: It is semantics. It matters, but mostly only to the person using the terminology, who is the only one who really knows the difference, anyway.
3 -
If I stop eating something, without comment, you have no way of knowing whether I've forbidden it to myself, just find it not worthwhile for some reason, developed an allergy, don't feel like having any now, etc., etc.
Of course. I don't think anyone is suggesting there's anything wrong with not eating things you used to. My tastes have certainly changed over time. It's people proclaiming: "I have forbidden myself X!" that are drawing the questions. If you just don't like something anymore (I stopped liking McDonald's in my early 20s), you aren't forbidding it. I certainly don't think of myself as forbidding McD's. If I wanted it, I'd eat it. I don't.
And to be clear, I don't think it's inherently wrong to approach it as "I've forbidden myself X!" That's probably a matter of personality. For me, though, it works better to think of it (even if it only really becomes true later) as "oh, these are the types of foods I like to eat, these aren't, but on rare occasion I might." Or, even better, to focus on eating what I want, with "what I want" incorporating not only taste (because I like way more things than I could have regularly), but ideas of nutrition and other goals. I didn't learn to love vegetables by banning other foods I at one time preferred. I did by changing my idea of vegetables by learning to get excited about seasonal foods, trying new ones, fun ways of cooking them, enjoying the green market. (I didn't dislike vegetables before, but back in the day (15-20 years ago) they were the eh, fine but not as interesting part of the meal. Now that's not true at all. So I worked to change my taste but in a way that -- again, for me, not everyone -- felt more positive. As a result of this I ended up not much liking some things I ate a lot through my 20s, but not through forbidding, just a loss of interest and taste changing.1 -
No because I know that I do want it but I shouldn't have it. I'm not saying things are exactly forbidden, but I can never bring myself to have cheesecake or chocolate cake or whatever else because even in moderation the calories are way too high and won't fill me up and I know I'll just be hungry for the rest of the day. It's hard to fit a lot of things into a 1200-1300 calorie diet. I'm not saying I only eat lettuce and grilled chicken all day long, I still have things I like (frozen yogurt, cereal..) but there's other things that just seem impossible to fit into my calories. And if I only eat an amount that I can fit in, it won't do anything for me.
I would be lying to myself if I said oh I could have these things if I wanted them but I don't want them, because I do want them. It's okay to want things but know you shouldn't have them because it just won't help you reach your goals.2 -
I don't really see this as a simple change in semantics. Forbidden implies that you want it but don't let yourself have it. If you actually don't want it.. then so what? They are totally different ideas.2
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Does this simple change in semantics & mindset make a difference? You see so many people spouting that nothing is forbidden & no foods should be excluded. What if you simply choose not to eat something any longer because you just don't want to? Does the reason matter?
I would word it differently...
"Nothing is forbidden, and barring a medical condition, no foods NEED to be excluded."
Freely choosing not to eat a certain food is, IMO, different then abstaining from a food one believes they can not eat to succeed...2 -
Honestly, I think it only matters to the person saying it.
"I *can't* eat candy" vs "I *don't* eat candy"
"I am not 'losing weight', I am 'making a lifestyle change'"
Now, please note that I don't find either way particularly goofy or wrong... it's just wording. Yes, a lifestyle change is so much more than losing weight, but some people who ARE losing weight often refuse to word it that way, ever.
it's kind of really just semantics... and really, whatever works for ya, know what I mean?
I have a friend that says she is not 'losing weight'... because that implies it can be found again. Instead, she is 'shedding pounds'. I have to laugh, but hey, if that what works for her, then I am all for it.
2 -
If you forbid forbidding, is that okay?0
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